trial thread: 3/23/2012

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ChaChaCha said:
Thanks for the info Wondergirl ... very interesting case - actually caused a change in law affecting court cases with recanting witnesses.

What is worthy of note here (whether good or bad - you may decide) is that nothwithstanding that TLM recanted mid-January 2012, the charges against MR were not amended by the Crown to a lesser charge (i.e. second degree, whatever), although there may have been discussions between the two sides during the time leading up to the trial (and last week, when a day was set aside for legal arguments).

Notwithstanding that the charges have not been amended to a lesser degree, the jury does have the option of findng MR guilty on a lesser charge if they find that his involvement was not with an evil intent ... which is where the defense is now headed.

I know that the charge Murder One when strictly applied is used in cases where a defendent was present at a kidnapping that results in murder, and under the letter of the law, his presence would make him as guility (if found so by a jury) as TLM ... HOWEVER there are now unforseen circumstances in the Crown's case against MR (ie TLM recanting, her creditability as a witness, a lack of forensic evidence as regards sexuall abuse of the victim on his part, and the change in law with respect to recanting witnesses, etc.)

Even though some of those following the case may be relying on the technical definition of Murder One to assess MR's guilt by reason of his being present with TM, does not mean that the jury has to go with all or nothing in their findings. They can at their option determine a verdict of other than Murder One which would net MR a lesser sentence than life. The Crown's position follows the strictest interpretation of the Charge, because they of course do not want the jury to allocate blame between the two - whereas the defense does want the jury to see an allocation.

I understand that some of you may not care about splitting hairs but in a trial it is always about a jury of twelve unanimously deciding on a verdict, so some jurors may feel in for a penny in for a pound, whilst others will be more likely to split the hairs. The defence wants all of the jurors to split hairs, and that why it is driving home an allocation of culpability. Some jurors may need it spelled out for them more than others. Can you imagine the discussions in the jury room once the jury is sequestered??? Oh my!





:truce:
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Good post, thanks.

Do you know how common it is for a witness to recant their testimony? I am curious as to how often it happens, especially in cases where one person involved in the crime is already convicted.

I believe it was stated that it is unusual for both defendents to not be tried at the same time. It would seem that there would be inherent risks and benefits to that.

You state here that there are unforseen circumstances regarding the Crown's case, and if I can question on them individually, please let me know what you or others think?

-TLM Recanting: I feel that the Crown would not be entirely unprepared for TLM recanting her previous information. I feel that the Crown knows full well exactly the type of sociopath they are dealing with, and the risks involved with putting TLM on the stand at all.

-TLM's Credibility as a Witness: Same as above, the Crown knows and has stated her credibility as a Witness is bad. Nothing new here.

-Lack of forensic evidence with respect to MR as a the sexual abuser: We haven't heard the forensic evidence yet, so, we really don't know what they have. Personally, I would not rule out a sexual offence on Tori by TLM. :( I also would not rule out a sexual offence on Tori by MTR. :(

-The Change in Law with respect to recanting witnesses: Do you mean the Judge overuling his previous decision to disallow the video taped confession for consideration? Or do you mean that this KGB law is very recent? When did it happen anyway?
 
Did she not say that it was just dark when they left the field? What time does it get dark? The cops claimed it took between 2 - 2.5 hours just to drive to the death scene (before anything else happens). She also claims the rape(s) were not quick (in her own words). She claims they covered up the vehicle tracks. How much time does it take to do all that? Remember they went to Tim's, to the Hardware store, to the ATM, to buy drugs (but could not find the place immediately) then to the field ---- For someone who "thought she was going to protect this child" she sure decided relatively quickly to buy a hammer.
 
dilbert said:
Right, but what did he say? "I didn't do it.." I'd cry too if I was accused and charged with something I didn't do.

IMO TLM didn't even care that she murdered someone, so why did she cry? Oh, because she killed a child and not an adult, that was her only regret and that she'd do it again. She cried for a purpose and it wasn't out of remorse.
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Yes because in all of her rants, she'd never once insinuated that she wanted to abduct or kill a child. Not even Necro or the ICP lyrics would endorse that. Wonder why when she finally did kill someone, it happened to be a child? Because she was there? Not because she chose this victim?


MOO
 
KMouse said:
If I recall correctly TLM said that MR did not have any pants on until after the murder. You would have to go back and read the tweets from the when TLM first described what happened.
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We don't yet have any proof of a rape only TLM's version. Maybe the little girl who was frightened out of her mind and had driven in a car for 2.5 - 3 hours and had to go to the bathroom had wet her pants for all we know so far. Maybe sweet concerned "T" told her to take off her wet pants.
 
Kamille said:
But not for thinking it was okay to take someone else's child from school and drive her all the way to Mt Forest because of a supposed "drug debt"? :waitasec:

Why did he drop TLM off and let her walk to the school and then let her walk all the way to the nursing home? Why didn't he just pull into the school parking lot? :waitasec:

MOO
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If the defense theory is true........you are asking the million dollar questions.

We might ask ourselves.........Who in their right mind would participate in such a plan?

Perhaps the answer is in the question.........."in their right mind".

MTR was basically a loner and a drifter. He had few friends in Woodstock, was having trouble at home, trouble finding steady employment, lacked education.............and had a drug problem.

Perhaps he believed it was going to be the settling of a debt, among drug dealers and drug users, and not something that would come to the attention of the police. Perhaps he believed it would be resolved quickly, TLM would get her money and VS would be returned........and nobody would call the police because they didn't want the involvement to include drugs and debts.
Perhaps he was told he would share in the recovery of the debt.

This is not an excuse for what he believed or what he did, but I am as flummoxed as everyone else to understand why any sane young man would involve himself in such a plan.

I try to understand, that as I don't travel in the company of drug dealers or habitual users, I just don't understand their mentality.

My son has many old time friends who got involved in drugs. Everything from pot to cocaine, oxys, percs, and alcohol.

When I ask him why.........he doesn't know what happened to them. He says they "drifted into it" and now they can't get out.

He has seen his friends so stupid.............they didn't know where they were.

So...........maybe we have to remember that these people aren't in full control of their faculties for much of the time.........and often do things that wouldn't make any sense to anyone else.
 
Yes because in all of her rants, she'd never once insinuated that she wanted to abduct or kill a child. Not even Necro or the ICP lyrics would endorse that.


Nice reference for Necro!
 
So they were driving around other schools trolling for kids. wow. I have to wonder about the other attempted abductions that were reported around that time. JMO
 
dilbert said:
Just re-read the transcript of the interview with MR, I didn't notice it the first time, but it appears to me that he's trying to lead the police to TLM and Carol in a very subtle way when he says they're questionable people. Why would he point them in that direction when he KNEW she did it? Doing that would certainly lead them back to him.

MOO
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Because he was wooing both of them. Sweet talking and charming them. TLM had been in custody for over a month, had been interviewed twice and so far no one was honing in on him. So he must have been pretty confident that she was going to hold up under questioning.

You'll notice that he told her not to call him anymore just before she went in for the polygraph. And he never returned to his mother's place after that interview either. I'm betting he was preparing to bolt.

MOO
 
Barsinister said:
Did she not say that it was just dark when they left the field? What time does it get dark? The cops claimed it took between 2 - 2.5 hours just to drive to the death scene (before anything else happens). She also claims the rape(s) were not quick (in her own words). She claims they covered up the vehicle tracks. How much time does it take to do all that? Remember they went to Tim's, to the Hardware store, to the ATM, to buy drugs (but could not find the place immediately) then to the field ---- For someone who "thought she was going to protect this child" she sure decided relatively quickly to buy a hammer.
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Here's something I thought was interesting. They couldn't find BA's house right away. She lived near Fife Road in Guelph. Oliver Stephens School in Woodstock was on Fyfe Ave. :waitasec:
 
Who drives down rough country roads, or worse driving in that field while masturbating with one hand on the wheel?
 
roseofsharon said:
1085 Devonshire Street, Woodstock

1.6 km from Oliver Stephens
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I hate correcting people but it's a lot farther than that, it's on the other side of town.

Google maps
Suggested routes

4.2 km, 8 mins
Huron St and Devonshire Ave
4.3 km, 10 mins
Clarke St N
5.2 km, 10 mins
Dundas St and Lansdowne Ave
 
roseofsharon said:
Here's something I thought was interesting. They couldn't find BA's house right away. She lived near Fife Road in Guelph. Oliver Stephens School in Woodstock was on Fyfe Ave. :waitasec:
Click to expand...

They are TLM and the investigators. I think that tweet was saying she was with police and trying to find that house she was at that day. She couldn't remember the address, from what I understand. JMO
 
dilbert said:
I hate correcting people but it's a lot farther than that, it's on the other side of town.

Google maps
Suggested routes

4.2 km, 8 mins
Huron St and Devonshire Ave
4.3 km, 10 mins
Clarke St N
5.2 km, 10 mins
Dundas St and Lansdowne Ave
Click to expand...

Thanks Dilbert, I must have read the km just getting to one street in the directions. :seeya:
 
dilbert said:
IMO people should be more afraid of their kids having been around TLM, the convicted child murderer and self confessed puppy nuker.
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JMO both are equally psychotic and disgusting. The only differences is TLM's was obvious and she didn't care who knew, whereas MR hid his or tried to. :moo:
 
matou said:
He had 6 weeks to get rid of his evidence. No car seat, no hammer, no coats, none of Tori's clothes. All while she's in juvie. JMO
Click to expand...

or she had plenty of time also. She had a few days and that would be plenty of time.
 
matou said:
They are TLM and the investigators. I think that tweet was saying she was with police and trying to find that house she was at that day. She couldn't remember the address, from what I understand. JMO
Click to expand...

Oh, oops, sorry about that, I thought it was TLM and MR driving around not being able to find BA's home right away.
 
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