17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #23

[Jade]

I always thought this case was closer to the Bernhard Goetz case for discussion purposes even though the posts are full of comparisons to CA and the A’s which I find inscrutable.

But maybe that is a Florida form of insult to GZ?

The Goetz case is said to be the impetus for the NRA pushing laws such as SYG.

In an abundance of caution I will state emphatically that I am not accusing TM of being a New York subway mugger.



All imo

 

[LolaMoon08]

Double post. Sorry!

 

[Cher352]

As to the eye rolling mentioned in the last few pages; I wouldn't say that was truly an eye roll to me but thought it may be more from fatigue and lack of sleep. I think yesterday was a long stressful day for him and doubt he got much sleep last night as he had turned himself in before yesterday's PC then had the long drive back to Seminole Cty before the booking and processing procedures.

 

[tlcya]

I was confused by the 2nd degree charges. With the lack of (IMO) proper investigation immediately after the incident along with all the mud that now fills the waters, I expected manslaughter was the most Corey would attempt to go for.

I did find out though that her charges are apparently based off of the Florida law regarding a death in a fight involving a gun. From what I understand in the layman's terms it was explained to me. If individuals are involved in a physical fight and one is subsequently killed in that fight by a gun, the appropriate charge is 2nd degree.

 

[LolaMoon08]

I was confused by the 2nd degree charges. With the lack of (IMO) proper investigation immediately after the incident along with all the mud that now fills the waters, I expected manslaughter was the most Corey would attempt to go for.

I did find out though that her charges are apparently based off of the Florida law regarding a death in a fight involving a gun. From what I understand in the layman's terms it was explained to me. If individuals are involved in a physical fight and one is subsequently killed in that fight by a gun, the appropriate charge is 2nd degree.

BBM I think that the autopsy might show that Trayvon also had injuries consistent with someone hitting/pounding on him.

Add that with the fact that Trayvon was running away from any conflict (according to Zimmerman) and Zimmerman following Trayvon (according to Zimmerman), imo, gave her reasonable cause to believe that Zimmerman was in fact the aggressor.

MOO

 

[Nova]

Initial report also states by a PO “While the SFD was attending to Zimmerman, I over heard him state “I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me.”

At this time he did not know that the scream was captures on the 911 call. It is my opinion that it WAS GZ screaming on the 911 tape.

I don't follow your logic. At the time of the overheard statement, GZ did not know there were ANY audio recordings of the incident. So he was free to make whatever self-serving statement he cared to make.

"I yelled for help and nobody helped me" might just be part of his "I had no choice but to shoot" defense. (It might also be the truth. But there's no way to know from the statement itself.)

 

[Kimster]

Not to sound like a complete dolt, but what do you consider to be chit chatting? Just talking about the case in general? banter back and forth? I want to make sure I haven't done that in here...

Chit chat is talking about everything BUT the case. It happens once in awhile and no biggie. But it was very frequent yesterday and since we have a relaxed thread for this case in the private forum, there is no reason for it here.

To be honest, I'm way more concerned about the one on one snarky posts that have been popping up often today.

'Nuff said. Let's talk about the case now. :tyou:

 

[LolaMoon08]

I don't follow your logic. At the time of the overheard statement, GZ did not know there were ANY audio recordings of the incident. So he was free to make whatever self-serving statement he cared to make.

"I yelled for help and nobody helped me" might just be part of his "I had no choice but to shoot" defense. (It might also be the truth. But there's no way to know from the statement itself.)

I think he knew everyone heard the screaming and decided that it's better that the screaming came from him and not the person he just shot and killed?

MOO

 

[Aedrys]

I was confused by the 2nd degree charges. With the lack of (IMO) proper investigation immediately after the incident along with all the mud that now fills the waters, I expected manslaughter was the most Corey would attempt to go for.

I did find out though that her charges are apparently based off of the Florida law regarding a death in a fight involving a gun. From what I understand in the layman's terms it was explained to me. If individuals are involved in a physical fight and one is subsequently killed in that fight by a gun, the appropriate charge is 2nd degree.

Thank you for this explanation! It certainly makes a lot of sense. It's exactly what happened in this case, so the 2nd degree murder charge is appropriate.

 

[Rhyme & Reason]

Here is a quick and VERY amateur video I just made regarding the PF9, as there were some questions earlier about sounds in the 911 call. I don't know what the sounds were, but wanted to show what sound this would make if you were "preparing to use/carry etc.."

I'm not a gun expert, just someone who carries.

PF9 - YouTube

Anadarko

Thank you for making this video, it's very helpful!

 

[Dr.Fessel]

As to the eye rolling mentioned in the last few pages; I wouldn't say that was truly an eye roll to me but thought it may be more from fatigue and lack of sleep. I think yesterday was a long stressful day for him and doubt he got much sleep last night as he had turned himself in before yesterday's PC then had the long drive back to Seminole Cty before the booking and processing procedures.

I kept thinking who does that eye rolling thing. I remembered seeing someone do it on video. Finally remembered it was Tommy Croslin in the jail house tapes.

 

[cityslick]

I actually think that Zimmerman's family should put a stop to it.

MOO

Outside of the two family members that continue to show up on talk shows for air time (which are contributing nothing positive to GZ's case), I feel bad for his family as well as TM's family. Nobody ever talks about GZ's wife (at least I assumed he was married) and what she could be going through. A lot of people's lives have been forever changed by this. That combined with the loss of a life makes the whole thing a tragedy, no matter the final outcome.

 

[Nova]

Just catching up. I am stunned that Trayvon's mother believes his death was an accident, yet Corey has charged murder 2 and half the planet it seems, is beyond convinced that it was an intentional hate crime, possibly even a pre-meditated one. I haven't read the articles yet, so I don't know whether she has stated her opinion of the charge. If she understands it fully, she cannot agree with it. Depraved mind/heart murder is not an accident by a looonnnng shot. I wonder if she will testify that way if and when there is a sentencing hearing. Very, very interesting, imo. I usually try to keep my cynicism at bay, but murder 2 under the circumstances sounds very political to me. jmoo

I don't believe TM's mother was speaking in technical legal terminology.

She may have just meant "accident" as in GZ didn't get out of his SUV with murder in mind. That doesn't meant that the killing was an "accident" legally at the moment the trigger was pulled.

Obviously neither of us has taken a formal poll, but I think most people believe GZ set out after TM thinking he wasn't going to let another a--hole get away, and GZ may have used excessive force to that end. But I'm not convinced that most people (based on posters here) believe GZ was thinking "I guess I'll kill a black kid tonight."

To the extent race is relevant, it influenced GZ's profiling, not necessarily his homicidal intent. (And it may well have influenced how the SPD handled the investigation, but that's a different matter.)

BTW, welcome to WS! Your posts are much appreciated!

 

[tlcya]

BBM I think that the autopsy might show that Trayvon also had injuries consistent with someone hitting/pounding on him.

Add that with the fact that Trayvon was running away from any conflict (according to Zimmerman) and Zimmerman following Trayvon (according to Zimmerman), imo, gave her reasonable cause to believe that Zimmerman was in fact the aggressor.

MOO

That is my hope, that the facts will bear out what we have suspected all along, that GZ was the aggressor by his following of and possibly confronting and/or attempting to detain TM.

 

[Cher352]

I watched a clip of a witness (lady) in disguise last night and the clip showed her saying "the big one was on top". Now, big is subjective...did she mean the tall one or the shorter larger one? This was just a clip, and perhaps she went into greater detail later, IDK. Anyone know if there was greater detail later?

I thought about this witness as I watched today's hearing. GZ sure looked small. IMO..The guard on his right was about 1-2" taller and his lawyer was maybe 5-6" taller.

Remember this witness was making this same statement early on when the media was only showing pictures of a very young Martin and a very overweight Zimmerman. If she was going by size only she could have very well confused the two....JMO

 

[mommakk51]

Trying to catch up here.. Re the 911 tapes- what I meant by 2 people, was that the witness (John) stated that there were 2 people fighting by his balcony,one on bottom in red. After the shot, there was only a black guy left on the ground. (You also heard some witnesses say they heard 2 shots).. Further down the building, someone called in that people were fighting by their balcony also, and the one on top had on a WHITE shirt. We know that Tray cut through the middle of some condos on his way towards his house.This is where GZ lost sight of him.. COULD he have seen something he shouldn't have seen? Could he have stumbled upon a drug deal or something and then the dealer felt he needed to take care of Tray so he couldn't be a witness? And then, couldn't this same person have been running away when he ran right smack into GZ at the end of the sidewalk? He'd have had to attack GZ too. We have a witness saying that after the shot, when GZ was up walking, he was saying "OMG what just happened here?". There is so much to think about here, so much we don't know.. we don't know yet that the bullet that got Tray was from GZs gun.. I think this is a case of 2 people being in the wrong place, at the wrong time. That makes them BOTH victims.JMO

Please let me know if I am posting improperly. I thought this forum was to speculate and analyze what happened?

 

[Phoenixfla]

I don't follow your logic. At the time of the overheard statement, GZ did not know there were ANY audio recordings of the incident. So he was free to make whatever self-serving statement he cared to make.

"I yelled for help and nobody helped me" might just be part of his "I had no choice but to shoot" defense. (It might also be the truth. But there's no way to know from the statement itself.)

I find it very unlikely that he thought to himself "well it was TM that was screaming, but if I just say it was me then I'll be able to claim SYG if I get arrested." I could be wrong, but I think the 911 scream audio will be crutial to his defense.

What about the witness statement that the guy in the red jacket was screaming?

 

[princesspjs]

This is perplexing as the witnesses have all stated that it was GZ screaming. The experts have said that it's not GZ screaming. What I don't understand is why did the screaming stop after the gun went off? If you scream before you shoot someone I would imagine that you would scream after you have shot and killed them b/c now you are screaming for help. Why would the one with the gun be screaming anyways? He has the upper hand.

The screaming and crying stopped immediately after hearing a very loud "HELP" then the sound of the gunshot. You can listen for yourself here:

http://audioboo.fm/boos/717346-911-call-screaming-and-gunshots-audible#t=0m0s

 

[LolaMoon08]

Outside of the two family members that continue to show up on talk shows for air time (which are contributing nothing positive to GZ's case), I feel bad for his family as well as TM's family. Nobody ever talks about GZ's wife (at least I assumed he was married) and what she could be going through. A lot of people's lives have been forever changed by this. That combined with the loss of a life makes the whole thing a tragedy, no matter the final outcome.

I also feel bad for GZ and his family. Not more than I feel bad for Trayvon and his family, but I do think that this could have been prevented?

I think that Frank T. had an obligation to tell the HOA that George was doing his rounds with a loaded gun and that he was having "fed up" issues. Anytime someone is dealing with "fed up" issues, they should immediately take a step back from their position. I've known cops who have had to do this because they were becoming mentally unstable for the job. There have also been times where a cop should have been pulled from active duty and they weren't and tragedy happens.

I think that George has had issues for a very long time. I think he has paranoid issues and I do believe he has an issue with authority where he not only believes he is the law... but above the law. Something that could have been nipped in the bud had he been held accountable for his previous "issues with violence" back when he was younger.

His behavior from the moment he chased another motorist until the moment he shot and killed Trayvon, imo, was a pattern of behavior that was becoming dangerous and we are here today because no one, even in his family, noticed that something was wrong or simply didn't want to believe something was wrong. IMO.

I do pray for GZ and his family. I pray that he can come to terms with what he has done and deal with it in a proper way. He will need counseling for the issues he had that led him to this point. He will have to deal with the consequences of his actions. I do pray for him though. This isn't a case where I think he's a monster... I think he is a danger to those around him right now... but he is not a monster.

MOO

 

[LolaMoon08]

Trying to catch up here.. Re the 911 tapes- what I meant by 2 people, was that the witness (John) stated that there were 2 people fighting by his balcony,one on bottom in red. After the shot, there was only a black guy left on the ground. (You also heard some witnesses say they heard 2 shots).. Further down the building, someone called in that people were fighting by their balcony also, and the one on top had on a WHITE shirt. We know that Tray cut through the middle of some condos on his way towards his house.This is where GZ lost sight of him.. COULD he have seen something he shouldn't have seen? Could he have stumbled upon a drug deal or something and then the dealer felt he needed to take care of Tray so he couldn't be a witness? And then, couldn't this same person have been running away when he ran right smack into GZ at the end of the sidewalk? He'd have had to attack GZ too. We have a witness saying that after the shot, when GZ was up walking, he was saying "OMG what just happened here?". There is so much to think about here, so much we don't know.. we don't know yet that the bullet that got Tray was from GZs gun.. I think this is a case of 2 people being in the wrong place, at the wrong time. That makes them BOTH victims.JMO

Please let me know if I am posting improperly. I thought this forum was to speculate and analyze what happened?

GZ admitted that he shot Trayvon.