17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #27

[gitana1]

BBM

Zimmerman had a gun that killed Trayvon, though. It doesn't automatically mean that if GZ had injuries and TM didn't--that GZ has a better chance of walking.

Example: Say I encountered someone that was swinging a crowbar at my head, and they kept missing with each swing--If I saw an opportunity to jump them (in fear for my life, to try and get their weapon),and I managed to injure them in the struggle, that would be my right to do so.
Even if the crowbar swinger ended up hitting me one final time, causing my death, I would only have the 'death injury' and he might have many.

Probably a dumb example, but at least "I" know what I'm trying to say. :blushing:

I got ya'. But I don't mean, that if Zimmerman had significant injuries, he was justified. I frankly believe he committed first degree murder. I just mean that it will be much easier to show reasonable doubt to a jury and he will be much more likely to be found not guilty.

There is a large percentage of our population who assume a young black male is an aggressive threat, at any time, regardless of who he is, what family he comes from, or the circumstances. Some of them will be on that jury. If they see photos of injuries on Zimmerman, how do you think they will vote?

 

[LolaMoon08]

I think that's Frank Taafe talking and he's "unusual", IMO. And the article does NOT say the friend saw the photos. So I take that statement with a grain of salt.



Maybe they didn't need to wear gloves cause' there wasn't any blood. I didn't see a hardcore search, just a cursory feel outside the pockets to make sure nothing was in them.

I truly believe they would have photographed any injuries IF they existed. I mean, they let a man go who just shot and killed a kid. They would have wanted to document why they bought that man's story.

Well, we're now to believe that George was beaten to a bloody-pulp, so I would think there would be blood on his clothes. There's always the possibility of needles, etc... in pockets too. They are supposed to always wear gloves when they are searching someone... but hey... if they want to put their own lives in danger... that's on them? Still dangerous!

ETA: As simple as it is... I think it also points to a serious lack in training at the SPD. At least for that one cop. MOO

 

[i.b.nora]

Isn't George's wife a cosmetologist? Don't they sometimes work with makeup and stuff like that?

When and where were these pictures taken? Who witnessed the taking of the pictures?

Sorry, George, you lose.

 

[badme102]

I got ya'. But I don't mean, that if Zimmerman had significant injuries, he was justified. I frankly believe he committed first degree murder. I just mean that it will be much easier to show reasonable doubt to a jury and he will be much more likely to be found not guilty.

There is a large percentage of our population who assume a young black male is an aggressive threat, at any time, regardless of who he is, what family he comes from, or the circumstances. Some of them will be on that jury. If they see photos of injuries on Zimmerman, how do you think they will vote?

You're right and that is tragic. Just tragic.

I just hope (if it goes to trial), that the jury will be smarter than the Pinellas Pinheads.

 

[gitana1]

What would be his motive for shooting him then? Just to feels what it is like to kill someone? What if TM lived? He would have been better off shooting him several more times if he just wanted to murder someone.

Motive would be repressed rage at his lack of accomplishments in life, rage at his unrequited desire to be a real authority figure, obsessive desire for control, authority, to be a hero, to be more important than he actually was, rage at "punks" and "a$$holes" whose vigor and confidence may secretly intimidate him, etc.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think he set out that day to kill someone. I don't think he decided to murder Trayvon when he saw him walking. But I think he did intend to use his gun on Trayvon at a certain point during his call to police. Hence, his improbable statements that Trayvon looked like he was on drugs, was "suspicious", approached Zimmerman and reached into his waist band while doing so. The minute my criminal defense law partner heard those statements, he said, "Oh, that guy knew exactly what to say to justify use of his gun." Just what I thought.

 

[Nova]

Actually, I think you really DO have to get hurt to claim self defense, at least when you are holding a gun and the other person is unarmed.

Do you mean as a matter of law or just in practical terms?

Because in the self-defense case where I was a juror, the defendant merely testified that he heard the victim make a threat "to put a cap in somebody's *advertiser censored*" and therefore reasonably believed the victim was armed with a gun.

This was enough to get the affirmative defense instruction. (But not enough to sway the jury: it didn't seem credible that the defendant took out his knife and ran some distance toward the imaginary gun.)

 

[LolaMoon08]

I agree that if George had these injuries... LE took photographs that night. At the scene or at the SPD. It would have been part of an investigation and evidence.

I am interested to see how George looked the days following the shooting... but I first want to see photographs taken as evidence first, then photographs taken with medical records included that lay out what injuries he had and what type of medical care he was given.

I know early on in the case one of the <mod snip> George had as a lawyer said that George's gash to the back of the head was so severe that he would have needed stitches, but by the time he went to get medical care, it had already started to heal... so... anyone know how fast a severe head gash, that would need stitches, could heal before you no longer need stitches?

 

[Donjeta]

my snip me too so :grouphug: to you and angelwings, I've had to think of it over and over every time we talk about GZ's story...

in my case as I was trying so hard to curl forward to prevent head injury I got it the worst on back of the head, neck, shoulders...it was only red within the hour but by the next morning felt like I was laying on bunches of bananas and in the police photos the next day (I hadnt seen the wounds as I couldnt turn!!) the bruising was MONSTROUS. I cried harder after I saw the pics than any time before.

so we'll find out eventually what injuries GZ truly had if any...if he did, there will be photos of the sickening bruising the next day...along with all the lumps bumps and scrapes...

this is why I feel so personally sure there was no way he went for a gun with his head being slammed anywhere! the instinct to protect your skull is so strong...

I can buy bruises and lumps and swelling appearing by the next day but not bleeding. Imo if his face wasn't a bloody pulp half an hour after the fact it wouldn't imo be a bloody pulp the next day either.

Maybe I'm taking bloody pulp too literally and it means something else altogether.

 

[magnolia]

Long story why, but I've asked alot of people over the years what they would do if a gun was drawn on them and most would not run because they are afraid it would guarantee they got shot in the back. They say they would try to talk themselves out of the situation or try to disarm the person. The correct reaction in most cases is to run as a moving target is harder to hit.

Depends on how close you are to the person holding the gun. If close, I don't think you would get very far. IMO

 

[LinasK]

I can buy bruises and lumps and swelling appearing by the next day but not bleeding. Imo if his face wasn't a bloody pulp half an hour after the fact it wouldn't imo be a bloody pulp the next day either.

Maybe I'm taking bloody pulp too literally and it means something else altogether.

No, the term "bloody pulp" implies there was a significant amount of blood loss, something we haven't seen in this case. We haven't seen any paralysis on GZ's part either- necessary if you need to be spoon-fed and in diapers, for an adult.

 

[Donjeta]

I agree that if George had these injuries... LE took photographs that night. At the scene or at the SPD. It would have been part of an investigation and evidence.

I am interested to see how George looked the days following the shooting... but I first want to see photographs taken as evidence first, then photographs taken with medical records included that lay out what injuries he had and what type of medical care he was given.

I know early on in the case one of the bozo-twins George had as a lawyer said that George's gash to the back of the head was so severe that he would have needed stitches, but by the time he went to get medical care, it had already started to heal... so... anyone know how fast a severe head gash, that would need stitches, could heal before you no longer need stitches?

I don't know about healing per se but the risk of trapping infection in grows when the wound gets older and if it has stopped bleeding on its own the doctors might decide it's better to let be.

ASK YOURSELF, IS THE WOUND FRESH? Only fresh, new cuts and wounds can be sutured. After 8 to 12 hours, the wound is contaminated with bacteria and the chances of infection are much higher. So as a general rule, old wounds will not be sutured, though in cases where sutures are inserted, a drain usually inserted to allow for drainage of pus and bacteria.

Read more: How to Know if a Cut or Wound Needs Stitches | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_4690555_cut-wound-needs-stitches.html#ixzz1sQknYez1

 

[LolaMoon08]

Speaking of the two-former lawyers of George -- George was under the impression that they were not his lawyers, but the lawyers were under the impression that they were his lawyers... if nothing was legally binding them as his lawyer... could they be called as witnesses?

 

[LinasK]

I agree that if George had these injuries... LE took photographs that night. At the scene or at the SPD. It would have been part of an investigation and evidence.

I am interested to see how George looked the days following the shooting... but I first want to see photographs taken as evidence first, then photographs taken with medical records included that lay out what injuries he had and what type of medical care he was given.

I know early on in the case one of the <mod snip> George had as a lawyer said that George's gash to the back of the head was so severe that he would have needed stitches, but by the time he went to get medical care, it had already started to heal... so... anyone know how fast a severe head gash, that would need stitches, could heal before you no longer need stitches?

Seems like George is an amoeba!!! Couldn't resist!

 

[gitana1]

Do you mean as a matter of law or just in practical terms?

Because in the self-defense case where I was a juror, the defendant merely testified that he heard the victim make a threat "to put a cap in somebody's *advertiser censored*" and therefore reasonably believed the victim was armed with a gun.

This was enough to get the affirmative defense instruction. (But not enough to sway the jury: it didn't seem credible that the defendant took out his knife and ran some distance toward the imaginary gun.)

Yeah, I was being a tiny bit facetious. Of course the "thought he had a gun" scenario would change things. But in none of the accounts about this incident do we find Zimmerman believing Trayvon was going to use a weapon on him at the time he shot him. Yes, he mentioned the "waistband" thing at the beginning but his reasoning for shooting Trayvon was because he was being assaulted, not because someone threatened to put a cap in him.

Thus, if he had no reason to believe Trayvon was going to use a weapon, he would really need to show some evidence of real injuries to have shot at self defense since he was the only one with the weapon.

Otherwise, what do we have? A scenario where an armed man is standing there, not being injured, but has "reasonable" fear of imminent danger of bodily harm or death? That's not gonna' fly. He could not get an affirmative defense instruction, IMO, without injuries or a reasonable belief that Trayvon was armed and was going to use that weapon on him.

 

[LyndyLoo]

I agree that if George had these injuries... LE took photographs that night. At the scene or at the SPD. It would have been part of an investigation and evidence.

I am interested to see how George looked the days following the shooting... but I first want to see photographs taken as evidence first, then photographs taken with medical records included that lay out what injuries he had and what type of medical care he was given.

I know early on in the case one of the bozo-twins George had as a lawyer said that George's gash to the back of the head was so severe that he would have needed stitches, but by the time he went to get medical care, it had already started to heal... so... anyone know how fast a severe head gash, that would need stitches, could heal before you no longer need stitches?

Just to address your question about healing of lacerations or wounds and time periods that would negate suturings...While it all depends on the individual immune system as to rate of healings..I comes down to a window between 24-48 hours..it all depends on the individual's rate of healings..

You cannot suture a wound edge together if already healed over..as the edges will NOT knit together,,unless the edges are cut away (debrided) to leave unhealed skin tissues ..then suture them together following that...

The best you can do for older wounds like that is to butterfly together for comfort only..certainly NOT for allowing healing the edges together..

Hope that explanation helps

 

[gitana1]

Speaking of the two-former lawyers of George -- George was under the impression that they were not his lawyers, but the lawyers were under the impression that they were his lawyers... if nothing was legally binding them as his lawyer... could they be called as witnesses?

No. Never.

ETA: If someone calls me and requests a consultation and then blurts something out, but never ultimately hires me, I cannot ever discuss what they stated.

 

[Concerned Papa]

“You (the media) are going to feel pretty stupid when you see them,” he said. “Soon enough everyone will see the damage this kid did to his head. A lot of people are going to have egg on their faces.

“Once the judge gets a look at these pictures he will dismiss this case and all you can crawl back into your holes,” he told a News reporter.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...se-judge-bows-article-1.1063745#ixzz1sQiUgB00

Francis, you've been told over and over, that was in Virginia and he was just a Magistrate! :rocker:

Did he forget to bring em last week when he was in front of a REAL judge?

 

[LolaMoon08]

No. Never.

ETA: If someone calls me and requests a consultation and then blurts something out, but never ultimately hires me, I cannot ever discuss what they stated.

Even if they weren't his lawyers?

ETA: Seen your above answer... gotcha!

 

[LolaMoon08]

Francis, you've been told over and over, that was in Virginia and he was just a Magistrate! :rocker:

Did he forget to bring em last week when he was in front of a REAL judge?

I'm sorry, but not only does that picture freak me out... his whole demeanor that day freaked me out... He's not all there.

MOO

 

[gxm]

my snip me too so :grouphug: to you and angelwings, I've had to think of it over and over every time we talk about GZ's story...

in my case as I was trying so hard to curl forward to prevent head injury I got it the worst on back of the head, neck, shoulders...it was only red within the hour but by the next morning felt like I was laying on bunches of bananas and in the police photos the next day (I hadnt seen the wounds as I couldnt turn!!) the bruising was MONSTROUS. I cried harder after I saw the pics than any time before.

so we'll find out eventually what injuries GZ truly had if any...if he did, there will be photos of the sickening bruising the next day...along with all the lumps bumps and scrapes...

this is why I feel so personally sure there was no way he went for a gun with his head being slammed anywhere! the instinct to protect your skull is so strong...

Yes. I was trying to do that too but my attacker was using my shoulders to beat my head into the ground and I couldn't fight the momentum. (Besides, a 10-year old could probably mop the floor with me.)

Hugs to you 2goldfish. I hope you are fully recovered and well.