IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #12

[GrainneDhu]

What kind of signs of struggle could there be on a path? All the person/people would have to do is drag the girls to the wooded area and put them in a car or pick them up and carry them to a car waiting near Maiden Lane.

I don't think there was a struggle. For all that Aunt TB says she taught the girls how to resist, there's no way to know if an individual will fight back until the time comes.

If there had been a struggle, I would expect to see blood, maybe hair, maybe bits of ripped fabric. The reason I'd expect to see blood is because the trail is paved. Being knocked off her feet would probably make either girl bleed since they were both apparently wearing short sleeved shirts and shorts.

 

[otto]

Tim Miller has to be asked, and I don't think anyone has asked him.

Maybe because LE still thinks the girls are alive, and they don't want to waste TES's resources? JMO

Someone posted upthread that the family has to ask, and that the family has to understand that the search will include bones. He does it for the families in the memory of his daughter.

If he's in the area, he might have a look to see if there's anything that he can do. The water has been searched and there's no guarantee that they girls are still in the area ... but if he's in the area ... never know.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Re: Texas Equusearch

http://texasequusearch.org/report-a-person-missing/

"Special note: Texas EquuSearch can only accept a missing person case if it has been filed with the appropriate law enforcement agency, a case number has been assigned, and law enforcement gives their consent for Texas EquuSearch to become involved. Requests for Texas EquuSearch’s assistance must be made by the family of the missing person and/or the law enforcement agency handling the case."

BBM

So LE must give their consent, and either LE or the missing person's family may request TES's assistance.

 

[otto]

I don't think there was a struggle. For all that Aunt TB says she taught the girls how to resist, there's no way to know if an individual will fight back until the time comes.

If there had been a struggle, I would expect to see blood, maybe hair, maybe bits of ripped fabric. The reason I'd expect to see blood is because the trail is paved. Being knocked off her feet would probably make either girl bleed since they were both apparently wearing short sleeved shirts and shorts.

I think the only thing that realy saves a child from a situation like we have here is instinct and luck. My own children have failed the stranger-danger test, without serious consequences, thankfully. They all knew better, but they made the wrong choice at least once.

 

[nikb]

School schedules are kind of all over the place here. Looks like Evansdale Schools are in the Waterloo school district. One school in Waterloo started July 18!? Three start August 6 and the rest (including the 2 in Evansdale) start August 16. Why do you think it might be related?

Thanks! Geez poor kids July 18???

I don't think it's related directly at all. I just thought the timing of the "stranger danger" talk was unusual and then remembered that a lot of stuff can be somewhat routine for families at the beginning of a school year. New school supplies, shoes, new lunch box... and maybe an annual "stranger danger" talk. Remind the kids of possible dangers walking/riding to school or even just to/from the bus? Sort of like how, around here anyway, there are commercials all over the place about changing your smoke detector batteries at the same time you change your clocks for daylight savings time.

I know it's a stretch. And doesn't bring the kids home.

 

[nikb]

With all of the attempted abductions in Iowa this spring and summer, that very well could have been the reason for having a stranger danger refresher discussion, IMO. I know I have had several discussions with my son even before the girls disappearance due to the other strange activity in the area.

Good point. A lot likelier than my school-starting idea now that I think about it and saw your post.

 

[nikb]

Quoting myself because I realize I misunderstood. You mean the stranger danger refresher might be related to school starting soon? That makes sense.

I thought you meant that their abduction might be related to school starting soon which I didn't understand

Yep... sorry for the repeat info. I need to go back to reading ahead before posting. I still agree the rash of recent abductions or attempted abductions in the news is more likely the force behind it though.

 

[otto]

That is part of what is so puzzling about this case.

The girls were caught on a security cam video at 12:15 pm (just after noon).

Their bicycles were found at 3:58 pm the same afternoon.

The location of the bicycles certainly suggests that the perp knew the area pretty well. But the time frame seems really tight for grabbing two girls and then staging the two bicycles.

BBM ... completely agree

Exactly ... so the bikes probably weren't staged. Besides, who stages a crime in broad daylight, at noon, beside highway construction, in a popular park when the parents may be looking for the children? The perp's objective is the children, why risk failing in that objective by carting a couple of children's bikes and a purse halfway down a trail that is inaccessible to a vehicle? After grabbing the girls, I would think that a clean get away is the top priority.

 

[otto]

I went searching because I thought I had seen someone besides Aunt T. mention the search dogs and was able to find this little snippet from July 18.

------------
FBI spokeswoman Sandy Breault said the reaction from the dogs Monday night indicated a "strong possibility" the girls had been at the lake, less than a mile from their grandmother's house where they were last reported seen Friday. However, Breault said because there were no confirmed sightings at the lake, authorities couldn't be certain.
------------
http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/fbi-dogs-detect-scents-1479200.html

Not sure exactly what it means but it seems less likely that the bikes were a set up unless the perp drove the girls to the lake and then made them leave the bikes there which seems unlikely imo

I wonder if Aunt T. knows something that she's afraid to mention. Like, maybe Lyric told her about going to the lake before and meeting someone there? Maybe Aunt T. was more like a friend than an authority figure so the girls felt comfortable confiding in her. It would explain why T. suddenly decided to teach the girls about stranger danger and why she had a feeling the girls were at the lake. Maybe initially she felt guilty for not warning the moms/grandma about Lyric's trips to the lake. Although, I'd hope if this were true she would've told someone by now.

Thanks ... that's what I remembered ... that dogs indicated that the girls were at the lake ... and their bikes were found there.

Could be ... early on, I too wondered how the family knew to look at the lake so quickly. It's a small town. After looking up and down the streets, that's probably the next logical place to look for two girls on bikes.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Is Meyers Lake a reservoir ... can a leach infested lake be a reservoir? I looked for irrigation maps when I was curious about the drainage pipe ... found a surveyor's map.

Meyer's Lake was originally a little pond fed by a creek. During construction of I-380 it was used as a quarry to provide rock for the interstate (late 1970s).

I do not think it is used as a drinking water reservoir.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I think the only thing that realy saves a child from a situation like we have here is instinct and luck. My own children have failed the stranger-danger test, without serious consequences, thankfully. They all knew better, but they made the wrong choice at least once.

Is it possible that it was not a fail, since they were not hurt? I don't know the circumstances, obviously, but if none of the children were hurt, maybe it was because their intuition was telling them "this is an okay person."

I think 'stranger' is too complicated to define for kids under the age of around 12 years old.

 

[MNDad]

Okay this is something that has been bugging me and I need to ask. Do any of you think the perp would visit this site?

Could be.

On the whole, I believe it is better for information to be free.

Besides, there was at least one occasion where the perp did visit WS and could not resist posting. <snrk>

Absolutley. I am also not convinced they are not posting among us.

Maybe our guy isn't smart enough or brave enough or man enough. Or are you?

 

[LucyOso]

This discussion about socio-economic aspects of missing children is interesting. I suspect that someone could write a paper about it concluding that there are socio-economic factors that may pre-dispose a child to opportunistic predators.

There are plenty of publications out there correlating socio-economics and child endangerment, abuse, etc. Most demonize the poor, the single parents, etc. Most do not offer any means of practical and realistic solutions. However, it is also arguable that money does not have any relationship to one's ability to parent or raise a safe and healthy child. Psychosocial issues are just as common through-out the class system. It is just money is equal to power and money can buy silence or intimidate victims from speaking. That being said in this case the family itself is a victim of many things, including society and media. No child is totally safe from predators based on greater socio-economics status, ever.

 

[pearl]

Can someone who is familiar with the geography of the area where the girls live answer a question for me? Are there any old abandoned water wells in the area? Through the years, I have read news accounts of people falling into abandoned wells. I know in my area an old well is sometimes found near where a farm was located. When one is found, it is capped with concrete.

 

[LucyOso]

With all of the attempted abductions in Iowa this spring and summer, that very well could have been the reason for having a stranger danger refresher discussion, IMO. I know I have had several discussions with my son even before the girls disappearance due to the other strange activity in the area.

My favorite statistical study shows rapes can be tracked by and increase with ice creams sales. At face value, ice cream is related to rape. But, the reality is...more rapes occur during the summer months when more people are out and about enjoying the summer, so there is more opportunity for crimes. It seems very plausible the increase in abduction attempts are related to the fact there are more children not in school and easier to access and find during this time of year.

 

[LucyOso]

Not necessarily a red herring at all. The girls may have ridden the bikes there, meaning they are crucial to the investigation in terms of who else was in that particuar area at the same time.

The other possibility is the person who took them is familiar enough with LE protocol and placed the bikes there knowing LE would have to drain and search the lake as time ticks away. This would give the perp time to leave the state or what not.

 

[LucyOso]

The number of cats in residence required to be a crazy cat person is always N + 2, N being the number of cats one personally has in residence.

So, for me, the level for crazy cat person is 6.

LOL...:floorlaugh:

 

[otto]

Is it possible that it was not a fail, since they were not hurt? I don't know the circumstances, obviously, but if none of the children were hurt, maybe it was because their intuition was telling them "this is an okay person."

I think 'stranger' is too complicated to define for kids under the age of around 12 years old.

The stranger-danger talk does not work if children do not have the right response when confronted with abduction. I hadn't heard of drop to the ground before. Personally, I tell children to run. Is dropping to the ground better? Is it advantageous for adults to drop to the ground when confronted with a predator?

 

[otto]

The other possibility is the person who took them is familiar enough with LE protocol and placed the bikes there knowing LE would have to drain and search the lake as time ticks away. This would give the perp time to leave the state or what not.

Staging the bikes could have been done by the perp to give himself time wth the children before anyone was looking beyond the lake, but making a clean getaway would be easier without stopping to stage two bikes and a purse through the forest and down the trail in broad daylight. At the very least, that would most likely be done after dark.

 

[LucyOso]

Keep in mind that the worst neighbourhood in Iowa would probably make someone from Chicago laugh with disbelief at the low crime rate compared to some Chicago neighbourhoods.

I think the reason why the children of the wealthy are rarely abducted is because the parents can afford to feed their paranoia.

So far as I know, child sexual abuse is no respecter of income levels; 90% of the perpetrators of child sexual abuse are either in the household or well known to the family.

As an example: Rielle Hunter, who has been victimised most of her life, so far as I can see (first by her father, then by the boyfriend who used her in a roman a clef, then by the married guy she thought she had a true spiritual bond with). She came from an extremely wealthy background and it certainly did not protect her.

Thank you, Grainne. I couldn't have said it better myself.