CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #5

[No_Stone_Unturned]

My own 'profile' of the killer: :moo:

- known to AG

- trusted by AG

- male, probably young

- intelligent (in a book-smart way)

- lives a 'normal' daily life

- planned the killing - luring her to the garage in order to gain entry, knows how to minimise DNA evidence, but also knew DNA would be present in AG's garage/house/property

- knows who else would be suspects - barn man, young people in the neighbourhood who might be home for Christmas, other friends

- sent the Amazing Grace song to selected people

- MOTIVE - this is the big one - I say no real motive other than killing for the mere pleasure of the kill

- also killed Sonia and perhaps attacked Shelley

- knows how to elude the police by living a "perfectly, normal life"

- has set up alibis for AG, SV and SL

- gets pleasure from eluding the police for so long - a sexual pleasure, no doubt

Now, all that's left is to find this person! :what:

 

[dreamwatcher]

Audrey was found in her garage. To my mind, she went there to meet someone. She expected somone.
Now who that someone is, well, we really don't know

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Audrey was found in her garage. To my mind, she went there to meet someone. She expected somone.
Now who that someone is, well, we really don't know

True. But it was no doubt someone she knew, a regular visitor. I highly doubt she'd agree to meet a complete stranger in her garage. And I highly doubt it was just some passer-by who was invited in to have a smoke with her.

How do we know that what PK said is true......that AG "was expecting someone that fateful day"?

:moo:

 

[2soccermom]

Audrey was found in her garage. To my mind, she went there to meet someone. She expected somone.
Now who that someone is, well, we really don't know

Do we know that she met visitors, expected or otherwise, through the garage? I know she didn't invite (m)any people inside her home. But was it her habit to greet them there?

That's very plausible to me, given her reluctance to show her home. It makes sense for that time of year if a visitor was expected, she might chat in the garage rather than expecting the visitor to wait in the cold of a front or side door. BUT for those of you who hold some of her closest contacts as POIs particularly for economic motive, then I wonder: why wasn't a break-in staged? I have always assumed Audrey had no alarm system installed -- that the keypad on the garage door functioned as "security" only as a lock. If there was an alarm, i may revise my thoughts. If there wasn't, it just makes no sense that she would be attacked there by one of her close contacts, specifically by one of the few (only?) people who had access to the code. For someone who may be a strong scientic/mathematical thinker, that just seems too obvious. Does anyone know if there WAS an alarm?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I think we were told long ago that AG did not have a home alarm. Maybe PK told us......I'm not certain.

 

[Woodland]

An article from the Brantford Expositor has LV stating that she always sat outside with AG and talked and that her dogs were always roaming around when she was there and did not trust them.

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/2011/01/04/its-all-so-horrifying

So this leads me to think that AG did not regularily kennell her dogs when she was home, with the possible exception when someone was coming in. To me this would make staging a break-in implausible - the dogs would alert AG. Jmo.

 

[colette]

She may have kept the dogs in the house while taking a smoke break in the garage. From what I understand there was dog feces in the home, so the dogs weren't created. She probably stepped out for a quick smoke with the garage door open, was attacked then the killer closed the garage door.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Quoted from Woodland:

<<< So this leads me to think that AG did not regularily kennell her dogs when she was home, with the possible exception when someone was coming in. To me this would make staging a break-in implausible - the dogs would alert AG. Jmo.>>>


Completely agree. I do the same thing with our birds - if a visitor objects to my parrots being free, I just place them in their cage and lock them in. Any kind-hearted friend would do that for people visiting.....cats, dogs, birds, etc. And I'm certain AG contained her dogs if anyone was afraid of them or felt uncomfortable with them roaming freely.

I feel this was certainly NOT a 'break-in' scenario. This was a person who regularly visited AG and (as usual) AG kennelled the dogs in order to meet this person.

Now, regarding the dog feces found in the house.....perhaps the dogs were not house-trained and THAT'S why AG only visited with people in the garage area.

That said, PK told us that he visited with AG INSIDE the house itself. Two things about that:
- is he telling us the truth?

- or was AG so comfortable with his non-judgemental manner that it didn't worry her.

As I've stated previously (way back) - women often perceive a potential judgement about our homes and we often tend to worry that a visitor will see a speck of dust!:what: (Heaven forbid that we should be 'human'!)

 

[Woodland]

Actually on the dog feces in the home, we have nothing conslusive so far on that. PK stated (actual post not at my finger tips) that he did not really notice one way or the other, or that there didn't seem to be much there and there was never anything from LE on how long they thought the dogs had been kennelled.

All we seem to have is LV stating the dogs roamed when she was there and do not recall PK mentioning the dogs were secluded when he was there.

 

[LilyMacBloom]

She may have kept the dogs in the house while taking a smoke break in the garage. From what I understand there was dog feces in the home, so the dogs weren't created. She probably stepped out for a quick smoke with the garage door open, was attacked then the killer closed the garage door.

link please.....no where do I remember seeing or reading the information that there was dog feces...thanking you in advance.

 

[LilyMacBloom]

The only B & E scenerio I can accept STRANGER SCENERIO (given that AGs property is set back off the road and I have seen it myself) is that
-perps parked on the road, casing out the joint/and/or neighbourhood in general. Had seen house in darkness (ie; no holiday celebration) and came back, making this a night time or after dark intrusion.
..when they came back
-AG was either already in the garage (sans dogs) and was preparing to take them out (as per PK post he thought she had her shoes on, can provide post) and the garage door was open in preparation.....
-perp/s decided to take on old lady...
..perp/s decided not to take on dogs on other side of door (hence nothing missing ?)
..perp/s didn't need a car/her car to escape. Nothing in garage worth stealing??

-AG overpowered by more than one person....forensics....maybe a footprint because they already came prepared for B & E .

I'm not sure if I even recall was she stabbed? bludgeoned? I can't evem remember that part...sheesh! I thought maybe I assumed <yeah I know, because of the knife DLS had brandished that was the cause of death.

 

[LilyMacBloom]

sorry: I tried to "attach" the file document I made of all of PKs posts..but it says file is "invalid"..not sure why

can provide doc if you request..

 

[Woodland]

Just to help you out LilyMacBloom, PK's posts start in thread #2, page 8. He only has 16 posts.

 

[colette]

link please.....no where do I remember seeing or reading the information that there was dog feces...thanking you in advance.

In a few articles when Audrey was first murdered LE stated that the dogs were in another part of the home, not in the area where Audrey was found in the garage. Then there were a couple more articles saying that the dogs were usually baricaded in the kitchen. Since Audrey was not found for 3 days after the date when LE says Audrey was murdered, you can assume the animals could not control themselves for that long.

 

[Woodland]

Is there a link to say when AG was murdered? Have not seen that - her time and date of death has been the point of much speculation here.

 

[2soccermom]

An article from the Brantford Expositor has LV stating that she always sat outside with AG and talked and that her dogs were always roaming around when she was there and did not trust them.
.

I think PK (or a news story) said something similar -- I remember something about the dogs not liking PK or about his feeling uncomfortable around them. I won't bother to look that up since I'll make my point based on Woodland's post above. What we seem to know (at least, IF reports of the dogs being free during these visits are true; I'm not claiming to know) is that Audrey had the dogs around her when she had company ... not the opposite.

unless I'm missing something?

So in other words, if the dogs were crated this may suggest the obverse of what has been postulated / suggested here ...
that perhaps Audrey was NOT expecting someone in the garage.

 

[colette]

Is there a link to say when AG was murdered? Have not seen that - her time and date of death has been the point of much speculation here.

Just before 11 a.m. Thursday - three days after police believe victim Audrey Gleave, 73, was last heard from - the body of the retired teacher was found by a friend who had stopped by her house on the outskirts of Hamilton, Ont


http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2011/01/02/16733986.html

This is as much as I can find.

 

[2soccermom]

Quoted from Woodland:

<<< So this leads me to think that AG did not regularily kennell her dogs when she was home, with the possible exception when someone was coming in. To me this would make staging a break-in implausible - the dogs would alert AG. Jmo.>>>


Completely agree....

I feel this was certainly NOT a 'break-in' scenario.

I also totally agree -- this wasn't a break-in. I was just trying to suggest, given speculation about LV and PK especially, that it would seem "reasonable" (in a horrific crime that is anything but "reasonable") that if the perp WAS someone close to Audrey and even one who had the entry code, he might "cover" that access with a staged forced entry. Woodland, the dogs were in the house; I can't see that a staged break-in after Audrey's murder could be any more cause for "alert" than her actual murder! Audrey must have cried out. But the dogs were not able to get to the garage.

Again, PK is not a figure of suspicion for me. And so I see things differently than most of the rest of you. And I am mapping an internal logic to my reading both of the crime scene, and the scene of reading here.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Is there a link to say when AG was murdered? Have not seen that - her time and date of death has been the point of much speculation here.

To the best of my recollection, no.....LE has not given a time/day/date of death.

Was she laying in that garage, dead, for days or hours? We don't know.

:moo:

 

[dotr]

Dog snippets..

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/617241--if-audrey-gleave-s-dogs-could-speak
"They were in the house, perhaps locked in their familiar cages"

"Togi and Schatze have played a role in the investigation. Detectives took DNA samples from the dogs — blood and hair — but it is unclear why."

"Togi and Schatze seem intimidating at first, especially big Togi, eyes darting as though on full alert. But after much sniffing, the dogs are well-behaved, even with a stranger"


"At bedtime, Schatze goes easily into her cage in the living room, along with Lorne and Sylvia’s two previous dogs. But it’s different with Togi — there is something about the cage.

Togi was fiercely loyal to Audrey. If the big male was in his cage when she was killed, did he hear it? Is it possible that he saw something, but was trapped by the bars?

It makes no sense, eight years into his life, that Togi is now uneasy with his cage. He is calm outside it, “well balanced” as Lorne puts it. But inside the cage, at night, he seems agitated, stressed.

Does the cage symbolize something awful for him? From Lorne’s experience rehabilitating dogs, he thinks that is possible"


Also..
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/595858--who-is-audrey-gleave
"Phil was a rare acquaintance she welcomed inside her house. They would sit on the sofa and chat. He called her Aud.

"That familiarity had been a mixed blessing when it came to Audrey’s dogs, though — two German shepherds who were so protective they would circle her as though forming a wall, barking and nipping at Phil no matter how many times he visited"