CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #37

[Kimster]

I'm sure there are, Kim. But I'm really not exactly moved to spend a lot of time looking up all these statistics. I know what I know from professional experience. I also know that parents/caretakers murder their children more often than strangers. Stranger abductions are RARE.
We could look at all the stats out there, but it won't distinguish this case any more than anything else. People choose to believe what they want to believe. And who they want to believe.
The only thing that concerns me about this case is the perspective that it is somehow "rare" for father's to kill and it seems very difficult for many to believe that father's OFTEN kill out of revenge/control/loss of control of an ex. It disturbs me in the same way the issues surrounding Domestic Violence were not part of public awareness until approx 20 years ago....and is still "new" to some.

Good points. And because of your verified status, there is no doubt there are statistics you've witnessed first hand. The thought of what people in your occupation must have witnessed chills me to the bone. :hug:

 

[NC Analyzer]

Based on this I'd better never anger my husband. He fits this profile to a "t"

That's really a shame. Hopefully you won't end up to be just another statistic.

 

[The Cheese]

Despite findings that men commit filicide as often as or more often than women,17,27,33–39,92 paternal filicide has attracted limited research. Few of the studies investigating paternal filicide2,5,6,36,46,93,94 employed large samples of fathers, limiting the generalizability of results

Fathers are often perpetrators of fatal‐abuse filicide, which is usually the result of battered‐child syndrome and rarely involves a psychotic disorder or suicide attempt.5,6,9,26,28,97 Previous family violence is often a cofactor in cases of fatal abuse and in other paternal filicides.26–28,43,98 Perpetrators are likely to have a personal history of abuse in childhood, particularly in paternal filicides involving infants under one year of age.

Motivational factors noted for paternal filicide include attempts to control the child's behavior, and misinterpretation of the child's behavior.5,66,93 In an investigation of five paternal filicides, Palermo100 pointed out that all of the men felt a sense of personal inadequacy and had a lack of parenting skills and coping mechanisms. Several studies show a high incidence of related substance abuse/dependence.9,2

http://www.jaapl.org/content/35/1/74.full

That's Canada. If you come across anything for paternal filicide in the U.S., I'd appreciate the heads up. Thanks!

 

[The Cheese]

1. Yearly around 750,000 children are reported missing in the United States, around 2,000 every day.


2. Most of these are runaways or kids taken by a family member.


3. Around 100 children are abducted and murdered in the U.S. each year. Around 60% of all child-murder abductions are at the hands of someone the child knows, not a stranger.


4. In around 75% of all murder-abductions, the child is believed to be dead within 3-6 hours of the abduction.


5. Nearly all murdered children are killed by a family member, most often a parent

http://www.keepyourchildsafe.org/abduction-murder.asp

Thanks. Someone had posted that from that site a while back. When I checked through on the references they gave at the bottom for their numbers, I found they had misstated them, leaving out context.

 

[NC Analyzer]

Hopefully the dogs will find something today...anything. And also hopeful the upcoming Dr. Phil show gives us the answers we have been looking for.

I don't think endless stats will settle any arguments, so I'll be checking back later to see if there is any news!

Praying for Dylan, Elaine, Mike, Cory, their friends, family and loved ones and a special prayer for AZgrandma and her entire family!

 

[Cherry]

Are there any new searches going on this week for him?

 

[Ghostwheel]

Thank you, ColdHands I was thinking of the lack of cellphone activity and reasoned that it's possible that Dylan didn't communicate that morning simply because everything was going according to plan. If he got up, got ready and headed out the door with dad, he would've had no reason to contact anyone. That's not to say that I believe it happened that way, but I think it can be added to the list of possibilities.

As a theory, Mark might have gotten angry with Dylan texting his friends instead of talking to him and took the cell phone away and turned it off. Even if Mark had nothing to do with the disappearance, he would feel guilty for leaving Dylan without a phone after he disappeared and disappeared the phone as well. (never turned it on, easy to do) Wouldn't want people to think he left his child with no phone. (I have lots of oddball theories like this one)

 

[The Cheese]

Well Cheese you said one study was in Aus and another in Uk and not to be
smashing on my own country here, but I would just bet that the US numbers
FAR EXCEED any numbers in either of the other two countries. Just a guess.
Moooo

From what I've seen the numbers are different.

 

[Ronald99]

Thank you, ColdHands I was thinking of the lack of cellphone activity and reasoned that it's possible that Dylan didn't communicate that morning simply because everything was going according to plan. If he got up, got ready and headed out the door with dad, he would've had no reason to contact anyone. That's not to say that I believe it happened that way, but I think it can be added to the list of possibilities.

Dylan's cell phone quit communicating with the Tower after 8 PM that Sunday night never to regain communications.

It's not that Dylan decided not to contact anyone, His cell phone loss communications the night before under unknown reasons.

 

[NC Analyzer]

The study by Kirkwood is in Australia. If you have any studies or statistics for the U.S. on paternal filicide, I would really appreciate if you'd share them.

In the other study Murder in Families I don't see anything breaking out frequency by fathers. If you have any studies that do, again, I'd appreciate the name of the study or who it's by so I can try to find it.

Thanks

So it is. I guess stats from UK are better? Or different? You can find just about everything if you go to US Department of Justice.
I also noticed SuperMom providing links to FBI stats.
But I'm sure anyone can find any stats they want to verify their opinion if they look hard enough.
Stats are Stats. They are not Dylan Redwine. And they do not reflect the criminal investigation surrounding Dylan Redwine who was reported missing in the care of and last seen by his father. It is what it is.

 

[ColdHands]

The concealed nature of the crime jumps out at me as a difference here In how many of those cases where the father murdered his children was there an attempt to cover it up?

Additionally, I think Dylan's age is also a factor here. It's not like you could lock him in a car in his car seat and push it into a lake. Murdering an almost-adult-sized boy seems different somehow.

IMO

 

[NC Analyzer]

One more thing before I run....little Jessica Ridgeway. Her case doesn't come close to anything we've ever seen regarding known "stats".

 

[The Cheese]

I'm sure there are, Kim. But I'm really not exactly moved to spend a lot of time looking up all these statistics. I know what I know from professional experience. I also know that parents/caretakers murder their children more often than strangers. Stranger abductions are RARE.
We could look at all the stats out there, but it won't distinguish this case any more than anything else. People choose to believe what they want to believe. And who they want to believe.
The only thing that concerns me about this case is the perspective that it is somehow "rare" for father's to kill and it seems very difficult for many to believe that father's OFTEN kill out of revenge/control/loss of control of an ex. It disturbs me in the same way the issues surrounding Domestic Violence were not part of public awareness until approx 20 years ago....and is still "new" to some.

You or anyone could easily convince me in a heartbeat that paternal filicide is not rare in the U.S. by just giving me a study that shows the reality, the actual numbers, support it.

You see, I thought it was far more common that it is too. I read the news articles and the cases too. The cases where it does occur - like the sweet little Powell boys - are horrifying.

I was shocked to find out that it's actually as rare as it is.

I'm looking for information on it. I'm sorry to anyone who is offended that I don't just take their word for it, and am looking for studies. Before this case, I would have been one saying paternal filicide happens frequently. That was my perception. The actual studies I've found just did not bear out my belief. I'm still looking for more information, and would welcome any help with it.

 

[tamild]

As a theory, Mark might have gotten angry with Dylan texting his friends instead of talking to him and took the cell phone away and turned it off. Even if Mark had nothing to do with the disappearance, he would feel guilty for leaving Dylan without a phone after he disappeared and disappeared the phone as well. (never turned it on, easy to do) Wouldn't want people to think he left his child with no phone. (I have lots of oddball theories like this one)

FWIW-i don't think that's an oddball theory at all.

 

[NC Analyzer]

You or anyone could easily convince me in a heartbeat that paternal filicide is not rare in the U.S. by just giving me a study that shows the reality, the actual numbers, support it.

You see, I thought it was far more common that it is too. I read the news articles and the cases too. The cases where it does occur - like the sweet little Powell boys - are horrifying.

I was shocked to find out that it's actually as rare as it is.

I'm looking for information on it. I'm sorry to anyone who is offended that I don't just take their word for it, and am looking for studies. Before this case, I would have been one saying paternal filicide happens frequently. That was my perception. The actual studies I've found just did not bear out my belief. I'm still looking for more information, and would welcome any help with it.

Best thing I can suggest for you is look up penal convictions. Not as "rare" as you continue to believe. Prison if full of fathers who MURDER their children.
Just as I mentioned about Domestic Violence. You choose to see what you want to see. (not you personally, of course).

 

[Kimster]

One more thing before I run....little Jessica Ridgeway. Her case doesn't come close to anything we've ever seen regarding known "stats".

Normally I would ask that everyone post stats only in the Resource Center. They are a tad off topic. If this were the middle of the Dr. Phil show, I'd be more concerned.

BTW, I saw a note from the mods that frequent this thread that the Dr. Phil show might be a private forum discussion. Just letting the guests know in case anyone out there is looking forward to following along with us - you will need to register beforehand. :kimsterwink:

 

[asyousay]

As a theory, Mark might have gotten angry with Dylan texting his friends instead of talking to him and took the cell phone away and turned it off. Even if Mark had nothing to do with the disappearance, he would feel guilty for leaving Dylan without a phone after he disappeared and disappeared the phone as well. (never turned it on, easy to do) Wouldn't want people to think he left his child with no phone. (I have lots of oddball theories like this one)

I personally don't believe this for a second ... a well adjusted dad would admit his mistake to LE as its a very small error when you weigh in the fact your son has been kidnapped . Parents make mistakes and nobody is perfect and you just look at the big picture!

MOO

 

[tamild]

Dylan's cell phone quit communicating with the Tower after 8 PM that Sunday night never to regain communications.

It's not that Dylan decided not to contact anyone, His cell phone loss communications the night before under unknown reasons.

Of course, but unknown doesn't have to mean nefarious. JMO

 

[The Cheese]

So it is. I guess stats from UK are better? Or different? You can find just about everything if you go to US Department of Justice.
I also noticed SuperMom providing links to FBI stats.
But I'm sure anyone can find any stats they want to verify their opinion if they look hard enough.
Stats are Stats. They are not Dylan Redwine. And they do not reflect the criminal investigation surrounding Dylan Redwine who was reported missing in the care of and last seen by his father. It is what it is.

I've gone through the US DOJ and haven't found any more.

I don't see any links to FBI stats in SuperMom's posts.

You're right, people can probably find stats to verify their opinion, and maybe that's why the blog posts and UK stats are being posted.

I'm looking for information though. If I find more statistics on paternal filicide in the US that indicate it's less rare (or more rare) than the statistics I have found, then my opinion will change along with the information.

I have no problem with people being of the opinion that paternal filicide is common. None. I'm just trying to get information for myself, and it doesn't matter at all to me if people conclude what I do or not. I'm just trying to figure this out for myself. If anyone has info they'd like to share with me, great. If they don't, that's fine too.

 

[rebeccaeee]

Best thing I can suggest for you is look up penal convictions. Not as "rare" as you continue to believe. Prison if full of fathers who MURDER their children.
Just as I mentioned about Domestic Violence. You choose to see what you want to see. (not you personally, of course).

I recall running some stats early on in this case and discovered that crime stats regarding kids who die by parental hand are often filed under death by child abuse or some such as opposed to murder. Death by the hands of a caregiver gets recorded in many different ways and it is up to states to report child fatalities. My own state is in the midst of a comntroversy for underreporting child fatalities so even stats are somewhat suspect. I wholeheartedly agree with this post- filicide is not rare. Finding stats to support it as such might be but the act itself is all too common.