GUILTY MO - Erica Green, 3, 'Precious Doe', murdered, Kansas City, 28 April 2001

marylandmissing said:
There's reasons why people don't call, which aren't understood by most.
1. Many of these people have already had their kids removed by social services or have been scrutinized by them.
2. Drug are hot in these types of areas and no one wants the "heat" on them.
3. Many people feel it's not their business.
4. Many people think the days of 'beating a child's *advertiser censored**' need to come back in
5. Minorities especially feel that social services is a 'white institute' and no well off white lady in the white cadillac has any business coming and taking their kids
6. Many people think foster care is no better than existing situations
7. Many people think it's best to handle things without getting police or other agencies involved
1- probably for good reason.
2- they could call in an Anonymous tip.
3- it's EVERYONES BUSINESS TO PROTECT A CHILD
4- stupidity. There's a HUGE difference in disciplining a child and ABUSING a child.
5- I have yet to meet a social worker that can afford a cadillac.
6- Foster care has it's issues, yes. But most kids in foster care don't get their head bashed in and then left for dead and then have their corpse mutilated.
7- She could've "Handled It" by contacting the police. OR defending the child.
This was obviously not a one time incident.:snooty:


Stupidity does not equal lack of guilt or blame.
 


There's reasons why people don't call, which aren't understood by most.
1. Many of these people have already had their kids removed by social services or have been scrutinized by them.
2. Drug are hot in these types of areas and no one wants the "heat" on them.
3. Many people feel it's not their business.
4. Many people think the days of 'beating a child's *advertiser censored**' need to come back in
5. Minorities especially feel that social services is a 'white institute' and no well off white lady in the white cadillac has any business coming and taking their kids
6. Many people think foster care is no better than existing situations
7. Many people think it's best to handle things without getting police or other agencies involved




1- probably for good reason. Many kids are beaten in middle-class homes every day of the week..Think Social Services is going to treat a two-family parent living in a 600k house the same as a poor mother with five kids living in public assistance? One’s going to get chalked up as a bratty kid whose parents didn’t give him his Ritalin that morning after a lawyer’s threat, and the other is going to be told to show up for court in the morning.



Let’s not forget that many children in foster care don’t have “bad parents,” they have parents in the hospital with no one to take care of them, parents who die, handicapped or disabled parents, and quite often, their parents are deported to another country. (The latter is what is making up a good portion of foster care these days)


2- they could call in an Anonymous tip. – Course they could. Most calls are anonymous, but spend one day on the streets of Washington, DC and see how many people call “anonymous” tips in to the police or any authorities. People lose their lives over this every day.



3- it's EVERYONES BUSINESS TO PROTECT A CHILD – Go into an inner-city ghetto and suggest this. It’s complete disrespect to interfere with another person’s parenting in the ‘hood.




4- stupidity. There's a HUGE difference in disciplining a child and ABUSING a child.

One person’s version of discipline might be abuse to another. I know people who will quickly call social services if they see a parent spank a kid who ran in front of a car. I had some woman once in a store threaten to call the police on my friend because she pinched her daughter who was severely acting up. My sister-in-law is a teacher and had a parent try to have her arrested and fired for restraining their child who was hitting another kid.

I know people who will slap their teen’s mouth in a heartbeat and put them up against a wall if they sass, is that abuse? I know people who believe at about the age of 4 you need to give your kid one good beating and they will never act up again because you just have to threaten them with that. I know people who have lost their temper with their children once or twice, but do not go around beating their kids day in and day out. I know someone whose son got a severe cut after her bipolar son whose son tried to hit her and missed and his hand went through a window. He lied and said she did it and she was arrested for child abuse. Know another woman who put a mark on her son, but it wasn’t intentional. She was cooking and he came over and was pulling on her leg right when she was trying to move a hot pot and she kicked him really hard out of protection. Kid couldn’t go to school for a week. Is that abuse? It's hard to say what is clear-cut abuse or one time incidents, unintentional abuse, etc.
This situation is a little unique and reminds me of the Jahi Turner case. Erick and Jahi had never been raised by their parents, and both died within weeks of their "real parent" claiming them.


We also do not know what goes on in most people’s houses. I personally have know one woman who is a noted school teacher - even has won lots of awards, puts on the sweetest act around people - I mean everyone who knows this woman think's she's so great, but behind close doors she’s an alcoholic with a ferocious temper.


5- I have yet to meet a social worker that can afford a cadillac.


They are there, but I do have to admit not really in DHS anymore. The pay for state social worker’s is piss poor, so they all try to get in private companies where they make double their salary. What’s in DHS? Lots of people who are just staying there a year or so to get experience to move to the private sector, people who barely speak English, or people who won’t be hired elsewhere.


6- Foster care has it's issues, yes. But most kids in foster care don't get their head bashed in and then left for dead and then have their corpse mutilated.


They don’t? I’ve read just in the last week about four social worker’s pleading guilty to molesting children, one leaving a kid in a vehicle for four hours, and one drinking and driving with a child in the car, and one who beat a child in her care. In foster care, I’ve read about nine molestations this week, six abuse arrests, one starvation death, and one child beaten to death. In Baltimore, MD, there’s a HUGE problem here with children dying in foster care. Let’s not even forget that social services has lost track of over 10,000 children across the US. Is this where you want your kid? Sorry, I wouldn’t want mine there.


7- She could've "Handled It" by contacting the police. OR defending the child.
As I said, you don’t interfere in the ghetto. What I personally would have done in her shoes is knocked on the door and said I was taking my kid’s to the park and can I take yours too? This is what works in the ghetto…



PS - I'm not advocating this woman's actions - I'm just saying a lot of people have no experience with inner city cultures and apply the why's to their own backyard.
 
marylandmissing said:
There's reasons why people don't call, which aren't understood by most.
1. Many of these people have already had their kids removed by social services or have been scrutinized by them.
2. Drug are hot in these types of areas and no one wants the "heat" on them.
3. Many people feel it's not their business.
4. Many people think the days of 'beating a child's *advertiser censored**' need to come back in
5. Minorities especially feel that social services is a 'white institute' and no well off white lady in the white cadillac has any business coming and taking their kids
6. Many people think foster care is no better than existing situations
7. Many people think it's best to handle things without getting police or other agencies involved




1- probably for good reason. Many kids are beaten in middle-class homes every day of the week..Think Social Services is going to treat a two-family parent living in a 600k house the same as a poor mother with five kids living in public assistance? One’s going to get chalked up as a bratty kid whose parents didn’t give him his Ritalin that morning after a lawyer’s threat, and the other is going to be told to show up for court in the morning.



Let’s not forget that many children in foster care don’t have “bad parents,” they have parents in the hospital with no one to take care of them, parents who die, handicapped or disabled parents, and quite often, their parents are deported to another country. (The latter is what is making up a good portion of foster care these days)


2- they could call in an Anonymous tip. – Course they could. Most calls are anonymous, but spend one day on the streets of Washington, DC and see how many people call “anonymous” tips in to the police or any authorities. People lose their lives over this every day.



3- it's EVERYONES BUSINESS TO PROTECT A CHILD – Go into an inner-city ghetto and suggest this. It’s complete disrespect to interfere with another person’s parenting in the ‘hood.




4- stupidity. There's a HUGE difference in disciplining a child and ABUSING a child.

One person’s version of discipline might be abuse to another. I know people who will quickly call social services if they see a parent spank a kid who ran in front of a car. I had some woman once in a store threaten to call the police on my friend because she pinched her daughter who was severely acting up. My sister-in-law is a teacher and had a parent try to have her arrested and fired for restraining their child who was hitting another kid.

I know people who will slap their teen’s mouth in a heartbeat and put them up against a wall if they sass, is that abuse? I know people who believe at about the age of 4 you need to give your kid one good beating and they will never act up again because you just have to threaten them with that. I know people who have lost their temper with their children once or twice, but do not go around beating their kids day in and day out. I know someone whose son got a severe cut after her bipolar son whose son tried to hit her and missed and his hand went through a window. He lied and said she did it and she was arrested for child abuse. Know another woman who put a mark on her son, but it wasn’t intentional. She was cooking and he came over and was pulling on her leg right when she was trying to move a hot pot and she kicked him really hard out of protection. Kid couldn’t go to school for a week. Is that abuse? It's hard to say what is clear-cut abuse or one time incidents, unintentional abuse, etc.
This situation is a little unique and reminds me of the Jahi Turner case. Erick and Jahi had never been raised by their parents, and both died within weeks of their "real parent" claiming them.


We also do not know what goes on in most people’s houses. I personally have know one woman who is a noted school teacher - even has won lots of awards, puts on the sweetest act around people - I mean everyone who knows this woman think's she's so great, but behind close doors she’s an alcoholic with a ferocious temper.


5- I have yet to meet a social worker that can afford a cadillac.


They are there, but I do have to admit not really in DHS anymore. The pay for state social worker’s is piss poor, so they all try to get in private companies where they make double their salary. What’s in DHS? Lots of people who are just staying there a year or so to get experience to move to the private sector, people who barely speak English, or people who won’t be hired elsewhere.


6- Foster care has it's issues, yes. But most kids in foster care don't get their head bashed in and then left for dead and then have their corpse mutilated.


They don’t? I’ve read just in the last week about four social worker’s pleading guilty to molesting children, one leaving a kid in a vehicle for four hours, and one drinking and driving with a child in the car, and one who beat a child in her care. In foster care, I’ve read about nine molestations this week, six abuse arrests, one starvation death, and one child beaten to death. In Baltimore, MD, there’s a HUGE problem here with children dying in foster care. Let’s not even forget that social services has lost track of over 10,000 children across the US. Is this where you want your kid? Sorry, I wouldn’t want mine there.


7- She could've "Handled It" by contacting the police. OR defending the child.
As I said, you don’t interfere in the ghetto. What I personally would have done in her shoes is knocked on the door and said I was taking my kid’s to the park and can I take yours too? This is what works in the ghetto…



PS - I'm not advocating this woman's actions - I'm just saying a lot of people have no experience with inner city cultures and apply the why's to their own backyard.
I have to say that it all sounds like an excuse.
Like kids who live in the ghetto should be treated differently?

If people stopped having that kind of attitude (It's not MY business)
the would would be a better place!

On a side note: I am not attacking you ;) Just wanted to make that clear.

any for what it's worth. I've lived in the ghetto- I've also stood in line for food to feed me and my daughter, and I've gone to places like the salvation army as well for food.
I've been very close to living in my car once as well.
 
marylandmissing said:
PS - I'm not advocating this woman's actions - I'm just saying a lot of people have no experience with inner city cultures and apply the why's to their own backyard.
If It wasn't for erica's grandfather- no one would've ever found her name, or her attackers.
At least I don't think they ever would've.
I don't think anyone in the inner city would've thought less of this "neighbor" for saving a child either.

Knocking on someone door to ask them if you could take their kids to the park also, from my knowledge, doesn't happen in the inner city.
 
Tipster describes fight to be heard

The tipster in the Precious Doe case publicly identified himself Friday, saying he had called Kansas City police 40 to 50 times before they took him seriously.

Thurman McIntosh, 81, of Muskogee, Okla., finally called police again April 29 with information that led to the identity of Precious Doe as 3-year-old Erica Green. That information also led to the arrest of Michelle and Harrell Johnson. McIntosh is Harrell Johnson's grandfather. Michelle Johnson is Erica's mother.

McIntosh said he initially wanted to remain anonymous, because he didn't want people to know he had turned in his grandson. But he said he revealed his identity this week because his anonymity had already been compromised.

“The media already said it was the grandpa,” he said in a phone interview from his home in Muskogee. “That busted my confidentiality right there.”

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/11643495.htm
 
Two states are investigating Michelle Johnson for welfare fraud, a week after she was charged in the death of her daughter known in Kansas City as Precious Doe.

Welfare officials in Missouri and Oklahoma confirmed Thursday that their states recently opened investigations on Johnson. Officials would not say exactly what they are investigating.

“It appears there may have been welfare fraud,” said Dustin Pyeatt, spokesman for the Oklahoma Department of Human Services. “The investigation was brought about by the recent media attention in this case.”

Johnson also was receiving welfare benefits in Illinois, according to Kansas City police.

It is not known if Johnson received benefits from more than one state at the same time or which of her children received assistance. Because there isn't a nationwide database for welfare cases, a state would not know if a person is receiving benefits elsewhere.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/11633308.htm
 
sharon25 said:
I have to say that it all sounds like an excuse.
Like kids who live in the ghetto should be treated differently?

If people stopped having that kind of attitude (It's not MY business)
the would would be a better place!

On a side note: I am not attacking you ;) Just wanted to make that clear.

any for what it's worth. I've lived in the ghetto- I've also stood in line for food to feed me and my daughter, and I've gone to places like the salvation army as well for food.
I've been very close to living in my car once as well.
Didn't take it as you are. :) Just shedding light on why people don't call social services. My perspective as well... Why should kids in the ghetto be treated differently? Good question - think it's a lack of education, lack of money, and a lack of know-how. You can have the same situation say a mother with a recent boyfriend who's moved in the house, her leaving the kids with him, a possible allegation of sexual abuse, and it very well may be handled differently. Someone in a middle-class area will be on the phone with an attorney before DHS is out the door, while someone in a poor area can't afford an attorney. Guess it goes along the lines of who's in prison - ? Is it people who could afford decent attorneys? Money talks
 
sharon25 said:
If It wasn't for erica's grandfather- no one would've ever found her name, or her attackers.
At least I don't think they ever would've.
I don't think anyone in the inner city would've thought less of this "neighbor" for saving a child either.

Knocking on someone door to ask them if you could take their kids to the park also, from my knowledge, doesn't happen in the inner city.


Depends on if you're tight with the neighbors or not. A stranger wouldn't knock on a door.

This is an example of what I am talking about when I talk about people afraid to speak up. In DC, there was a 8-year-old girl shot last year. No one, even people who witnessed the crime, would speak up. The police conducted one of the largest manhunts ever in DC to find the killer. It took months.

A 9-year-old was shot a couple months ago. There's a $75,000 reward in the case, yet, no one's talking...People are afraid to "rat" on others, and that's including child abuse in inner cities.
 
I think what happened to the GF also influences the fact that things don't get reported. He didn't report until after the fact it is true. But after the child came up missing, he reported. And he reported again. And again.

All over, neighbors families and others make reports of what they suspect may be happening in an abuse situation. Maybe an investigation is made or maybe not (that is protected info, and cannot be discussed after the report is made. There is an assumption that it will be investigated). Nothing appears to change for the child. The only thing that changes is there is one or two mad parents going around trying to find out who made the reports. And possibly trying to get even. That is why people often don't want to make a report.
 
marylandmissing said:
Didn't take it as you are. :) Just shedding light on why people don't call social services. My perspective as well... Why should kids in the ghetto be treated differently? Good question - think it's a lack of education, lack of money, and a lack of know-how. You can have the same situation say a mother with a recent boyfriend who's moved in the house, her leaving the kids with him, a possible allegation of sexual abuse, and it very well may be handled differently. Someone in a middle-class area will be on the phone with an attorney before DHS is out the door, while someone in a poor area can't afford an attorney. Guess it goes along the lines of who's in prison - ? Is it people who could afford decent attorneys? Money talks
You are so very right about the prison issue.
I have written several essays in college about that!!!

Off topic- I believe they also looked at the statistics- A person who is free on bail will typically be found not guilty, than a person who can not make bail.
 
marylandmissing said:
[/b]

Depends on if you're tight with the neighbors or not. A stranger wouldn't knock on a door.

This is an example of what I am talking about when I talk about people afraid to speak up. In DC, there was a 8-year-old girl shot last year. No one, even people who witnessed the crime, would speak up. The police conducted one of the largest manhunts ever in DC to find the killer. It took months.

A 9-year-old was shot a couple months ago. There's a $75,000 reward in the case, yet, no one's talking...People are afraid to "rat" on others, and that's including child abuse in inner cities.
hmm, maybe in high drug and gang areas??
the biggest problem is that you are not really dealing
with one prep. you're dealing with all that prep.'s friends.

They need a lot more policing in those neighborhoods where those
two children were shot, we've had problems like that here
and as soon as the police stepped in to help the citizens
take back the street the crime went way down.
Of course it just moved a couple of blocks away, where the
wasn't as much police and citizens taking action.
 
mysteriew said:
I think what happened to the GF also influences the fact that things don't get reported. He didn't report until after the fact it is true. But after the child came up missing, he reported. And he reported again. And again.

All over, neighbors families and others make reports of what they suspect may be happening in an abuse situation. Maybe an investigation is made or maybe not (that is protected info, and cannot be discussed after the report is made. There is an assumption that it will be investigated). Nothing appears to change for the child. The only thing that changes is there is one or two mad parents going around trying to find out who made the reports. And possibly trying to get even. That is why people often don't want to make a report.
very true, unfortunately.
 
mysteriew said:
Tipster describes fight to be heard

The tipster in the Precious Doe case publicly identified himself Friday, saying he had called Kansas City police 40 to 50 times before they took him seriously.

Thurman McIntosh, 81, of Muskogee, Okla., finally called police again April 29 with information that led to the identity of Precious Doe as 3-year-old Erica Green. That information also led to the arrest of Michelle and Harrell Johnson. McIntosh is Harrell Johnson's grandfather. Michelle Johnson is Erica's mother.

McIntosh said he initially wanted to remain anonymous, because he didn't want people to know he had turned in his grandson. But he said he revealed his identity this week because his anonymity had already been compromised.

“The media already said it was the grandpa,” he said in a phone interview from his home in Muskogee. “That busted my confidentiality right there.”

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/11643495.htm

hmmm... so I wonder WHY they never followed up with his phone calls??

poor man, I only hope and pray that Erica got to feel the amount of love her grandpa had for her.
 
i was living in an apartment building when i was in college and the woman above me was hurting her baby, constantly that child would scream and she would scream and i could hear her hitting the child. i called social services and reported her anonymously. she and the child disappeared shortly after. don't know what happened. nothing is worse than listening to a child being abused. if i hadn't called i would guilty to this day. it's my OBLIGATION to protect a child, any child. if i hear something that shouldn't be going on.
 
MistyM said:
i was living in an apartment building when i was in college and the woman above me was hurting her baby, constantly that child would scream and she would scream and i could hear her hitting the child. i called social services and reported her anonymously. she and the child disappeared shortly after. don't know what happened. nothing is worse than listening to a child being abused. if i hadn't called i would guilty to this day. it's my OBLIGATION to protect a child, any child. if i hear something that shouldn't be going on.
I'm the type of person that you might hear about on the news someday :(

I would call the police first, social services next, then I'd go up there and kick her @%$

yep.. I'd be in jail probably.:doh:
 
The tipster who provided key information in the Precious Doe murder investigation called police 50 times starting last year, Kansas City police acknowledged Thursday. Police said they were looking at ways to avoid such missed opportunities in the future.

Thursday’s comments followed an internal review of the last year of the four-year investigation. The review found only one return phone call from a detective to the tipster. Just three of the tipster’s calls were logged in the case file.

“Yes, we dropped the ball,” homicide Sgt. Dave Bernard, who led the murder investigation for four years, said Thursday.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/11801685.htm
 
sharon25 said:
hmmm... so I wonder WHY they never followed up with his phone calls??

poor man, I only hope and pray that Erica got to feel the amount of love her grandpa had for her.


Bless his heart for never giving up. He's my hero
 
May you now have peace darling Erica.
May Justice be served to the fullest.

God Bless this dear child.

JJJJ
 

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