What about the obvious/The defense's written admission!

BonKai said:

Bolded by me:


Yes, Dr. G did say this and it bothered me. However, if ANY traces of Xananx or chloroform are found, you would have to ask why! A child should not have ANY traces of Xanax in their system. I'm not sure about choroform - it's possible that trace amounts are normal. I'll have to do some research on that.

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According to what we've been lead to believe about the finding of the body is that hair was also discovered. I believe the hair will reveal a wealth of information about what was in Caylee's system. Bonkai, you are correct, normally there should not be bit of Xanax in any child's system. But we also have the link back to the computer on how to make choroform, its effects and how to use it, was researched on line. That evidence, I think will go far, on casting a shadow of doubt the choroform was administered on purpose.
jmo

I'm not a fan of the defense team or tactics, but (however inartfully something was written) a document like the one concerning the DP was making arguments hypothetically, as lawyers often do. "What if." "If she did x, though we are not admitting she did, then blah blah blah, poor Casey, blah blah." What she has told them is privileged and they aren't intending to reveal it in a court filing like this. Attorney argument or opinion is not fact/evidence. As to discussions about immunity, those can't be used as evidence, either. Somehow, the letters have come out into the public domain, but they aren't evidence or fact, either.

BonKai said:

Bolded by me:


Yes, Dr. G did say this and it bothered me. However, if ANY traces of Xananx or chloroform are found, you would have to ask why! A child should not have ANY traces of Xanax in their system. I'm not sure about choroform - it's possible that trace amounts are normal. I'll have to do some research on that.

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What I have a problem with is that there was ALOT of chloroform in the trunk of the car... and a mitachondrial match to either KC or Caylee's hair from the hair that was found in the trunk (since CA only provided LE a brush containing hair that had both KC and Caylee's hair on it. The trunk smelled like human decomposition. Why is that? We have hair that is a very very high probability is Caylee's, we have high levels of chloroform in the trunk and smells of human decomposition in the trunk.... If I were a juror,I would have a BIG problem right there...I had a problem with that before her precious remains were found, rest her soul...

hey guys, as a paramedic I've got to tell you that overdosing on Xanax is pretty tough. if casey gave caylee some to put her asleep that amount, even if a bit too much, wouldn't kill her. you'd really have to administer a ton of it. there may have been a mistake here, but I doubt it. leanord padilla's theories are bunk. casey killed her daughter with malice and forethought to punish cindy. duct tape, web searches, smiling in court and raging at fusian... there was no accident.

period.

hey guys, as a paramedic I've got to tell you that overdosing on Xanax is pretty tough. if casey gave caylee some to put her asleep that amount, even if a bit too much, wouldn't kill her. you'd really have to administer a ton of it. there may have been a mistake here, but I doubt it. leanord padilla's theories are bunk. casey killed her daughter with malice and forethought to punish cindy. duct tape, web searches, smiling in court and raging at fusian... there was no accident.

period.

mysteriew said:

I agree. I think the defense is going to be that there were a number of factors that led to Caylee's death, none of which alone would have caused her to die but that combined together proved fatal.

I think it is possible that either she drugged Caylee or she left Caylee in her car, and that one of those combined with the taping her mouth led to Caylee's death.

I think the defense will be that KC was a mother at her wits end, with a 'difficult' child and that KC was trying to subdue her. And that Caylee died during that. I believe they will explain her other actions in how she disposed of her remains by saying she panicked and felt she had to hide Caylee's death. Or that she feared telling her parents that Caylee died. (You know, how she felt that her parents loved Caylee more than her and that they would never love her if they found out.) Just wait, at some point a "psychotic break" will be mentioned.

I do think that JB will try to prove innocent on the first degree murder, because proof of premediation will be hard to get. I think JB will be hoping for manslaughter, but he will have a hard time evading 2 nd degree murder.

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The beauty of Florida law for defense lawyers is the sunshine laws and discovery. Someone like Baez can sit back, make and take pot shots, file discovery motions all day, create as much hoopla as they want while the prosecution has to open the books on what evidence they have with which they intend to convict with. Needless to say, once all the evidence is on the table; the defense has the luxury of creating a strategy that slices through the evidence in one manner or another. It can be completely different at trial than it is now.

So, just wait and see is all we can do. I don't think he has a Mack truck small enough to wade through these swiss cheese holes. His job is tough and perhaps maybe Casey talked a bit toooooo much. Plea will come methinks.

azwriter said:

According to what we've been lead to believe about the finding of the body is that hair was also discovered. I believe the hair will reveal a wealth of information about what was in Caylee's system. Bonkai, you are correct, normally there should not be bit of Xanax in any child's system. But we also have the link back to the computer on how to make choroform, its effects and how to use it, was researched on line. That evidence, I think will go far, on casting a shadow of doubt the choroform was administered on purpose.
jmo

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Her hair will only show what she had previously been exposed to, if the poison ingested is such that it kills you your body never has the opportunity to process it to the point of marking the hair. From what I could find it doesn't show in the hair for an average of 5 days from ingestions. With no organs and no tissue we will never know if she ingested chemicals just before death. No way to determine suffocation either which with the tape, if that is true, was a likely route as well.

My big fear with this case is that the chloroform theory is so prevalent the defense is going to have a clear road to manslaughter. For whatever reason, most people seem to equate chloroform with "accident." I think LE finding chloroform in the trunk was probably a bad thing, because people are going to immediately think "Oh, hussy girl wanted to party."

There are so many things that point to malice, as a PP said. I mean, I don't think dosing a child with chloroform is an accident regardless, but why can't it be a malicious cause of death? Especially when contextualized with the other searches?

I don't know. I think this case is open/shut, but there is such a strong media presence out there with the "accident" theory and it seems to be a consensus on the boards. Her behavior is just so wrong.

what about this!!?? is this not suspiscious from that same show transcript..

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On a separate note, Caylee`s grandfather, George Anthony, was reportedly spotted last week in an area where searches are expected to resume for the little girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is another wooded area that`s easily accessible by car yet easy to disappear into. And it`s less than four miles from where Casey Anthony and Caylee lived with Casey`s parents. The Channel 9 viewer told us she saw Caylee`s grandfather, George`s, car parked in this area about 6:15 PM on October 30 and that he was staring into the woods. Then she saw him get into his car and drive away.

^^^ where is that area?? is it where she ended up being found?

MomofBoys said:

My big fear with this case is that the chloroform theory is so prevalent the defense is going to have a clear road to manslaughter. For whatever reason, most people seem to equate chloroform with "accident." I think LE finding chloroform in the trunk was probably a bad thing, because people are going to immediately think "Oh, hussy girl wanted to party."

There are so many things that point to malice, as a PP said. I mean, I don't think dosing a child with chloroform is an accident regardless, but why can't it be a malicious cause of death? Especially when contextualized with the other searches?

I don't know. I think this case is open/shut, but there is such a strong media presence out there with the "accident" theory and it seems to be a consensus on the boards. Her behavior is just so wrong.

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oh no, i totally agree. even if she was using the chloroform to only make caylee pass out, THAT is malicious. So i can go give my child chloroform and not get in trouble as long as he doesn't die? I agree with you. Chloroform is deadly, and to use it on a child who ends up dying from it is murder. She may not have tried to kill caylee, but she gave her what did kill her and by NO accident. I think while using chloroform on caylee, casey did give a crap if it killed caylee. As long as it made caylee disappear as needed.

That area was boggy creek road where many thought the body would be. Not where she was ultimately found.

Hello WS

About the subject of this thread. Um...yeah. I think when a new person comes to WS and specifically the Casey Anthony case, this is the first thing they should read.

I understand that this is not an "admission", or at least that is what I am understanding by this thread. But...I mean...what am I missing here? As far as sleuthing goes doesn't this answer so much about what happened to Caylee?

So, we do not have access to this document? Am I understanding that correctly? How do we have this information?

TIA

...JS...

What is interesting to me is how TL came up with the "accidental" sedative overdose, in his letter to the state. I would love to know who told him what, about this scenario. Surely he didn't just think of it himself, being so new on the case back then. It was a pretty brazen admission on his part, no wonder Baez didn't keep him around for very long.

The SA filed this a few days after all of this was in the news.
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/document-preview.aspx?doc_id=2422993

The short answer to the question is ...no
This will never be seen by the jury, under any set of circumstances
just as the jury will never see the letters and e mails that went back and forth between Baez and the state discussing a plea deal and an extension for same.
Correspondence between lawyers is not evidence. It is titilating, but the jury will never see it.


It is too bad that lawyer did not remain on the case, his approach would have been much more realistic. He said publicly that he resigned because he and Baez disagreed over strategy, and that he would have pursued a diminished capacity defense...that she was a troubled woman, who may be suffering from depression or other mental conditions. Clearly he thought the Zanny the Nanny strategy was not viable.

It was shocking, and disappointing that he did release this confidential information to the public. What he and Baez discussed should have remained private. Forever. I want a conviction and ONE TRIAL.

IMHO it doesn't matter about prior statements made by TL regarding Caylee possibly being 'unwittingly overdosed' by a sedative. With the latest document release, there were pictures of a plastic needle cover "sheath" that one usually finds in a hospital or home health setting. (When giving injections and using different sized syringes, there are various sized needles to use with the syringes as well. And these needles are covered with a sheath).

Also there was a "disposable syringe set cover 3 ml" (3 ml which is equivalent to 3 cc. If giving a child medication, 1 tsp would = 5 cc or 5 ml). This also is usually found in a hospital, pharmacy, medical office, or home health setting. If someone has to have a syringe to self-inject medication, they have to have a prescription to obtain it from a pharmacy. Otherwise, this syringe set would have been obtained from a hospital, medical office, or home health setting.

There was also a 3 ml syringe found with traces of chloroform in the syringe at the crime scene.

IMO, there was no 'unwittingly' overdose done on Caylee. It was intentional. My thinking is at the time TL made that statement, he didn't think this evidence would be found. Even though by the time Caylee's remains were found, there was no way the ME could find any choloroform in her remains since they were skeletalinized. I still think that there was an attempt made to sedate Caylee with chloroform and it failed, maybe because she made up a weak batch. From what I've read on making chloroform, one has to be very careful in making it - or the person making it can become sick, burned by the chemicals or pass out. Anyway, when the chloroform didn't work as it should have, that's when the duct tape was used. :furious: JMO

debbie0604 said:

IMHO it doesn't matter about prior statements made by TL regarding Caylee possibly being 'unwittingly overdosed' by a sedative. With the latest document release, there were pictures of a plastic needle cover "sheath" that one usually finds in a hospital or home health setting. (When giving injections and using different sized syringes, there are various sized needles to use with the syringes as well. And these needles are covered with a sheath).

Also there was a "disposable syringe set cover 3 ml" (3 ml which is equivalent to 3 cc. If giving a child medication, 1 tsp would = 5 cc or 5 ml). This also is usually found in a hospital, pharmacy, medical office, or home health setting. If someone has to have a syringe to self-inject medication, they have to have a prescription to obtain it from a pharmacy. Otherwise, this syringe set would have been obtained from a hospital, medical office, or home health setting.

There was also a 3 ml syringe found with traces of chloroform in the syringe at the crime scene.

IMO, there was no 'unwittingly' overdose done on Caylee. It was intentional. My thinking is at the time TL made that statement, he didn't think this evidence would be found. Even though by the time Caylee's remains were found, there was no way the ME could find any choloroform in her remains since they were skeletalinized. I still think that there was an attempt made to sedate Caylee with chloroform and it failed, maybe because she made up a weak batch. From what I've read on making chloroform, one has to be very careful in making it - or the person making it can become sick, burned by the chemicals or pass out. Anyway, when the chloroform didn't work as it should have, that's when the duct tape was used. :furious: JMO

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Section bolded by me. One does not need a prescription to obtain syringes from a pharmacy. Most doctors write a prescription for them because that allows the patient to be reimbursed by their insurance company for the syringes, without the prescription they have to pay out of pocket for them. About 10 or so years ago syringes became non prescription items, where previously you did need a prescription for them. Anyone can go into up to a pharmacy counter and say they would like a syringe and it will be sold to them.

Misfitdolly said:

Section bolded by me. One does not need a prescription to obtain syringes from a pharmacy. Most doctors write a prescription for them because that allows the patient to be reimbursed by their insurance company for the syringes, without the prescription they have to pay out of pocket for them. About 10 or so years ago syringes became non prescription items, where previously you did need a prescription for them. Anyone can go into up to a pharmacy counter and say they would like a syringe and it will be sold to them.

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I called my pharmacy and my pharmacist said that in some states the law is different as to whether pharmacies will sell syringes with needles attached to people without a prescription. I stand corrected - as he told me in GA, they can be sold without a prescription here. I'm not sure about FL though.

Edited to add: I have to self inj medication myself and the syringe that I receive comes with a needle already attached. Again, JMO

IMO, the needle sheath covering that was in the discovery docs along with the "syringe set" looks suspicious to me, and does not appear to me anyway to have been obtained from a pharmacy - but that's my opinion only.

piratemom said:

I remember that movie. I strongly feel Anniw supplied the xanax as KC wrote on one of her accounts, dont have the link. Hence zanny was created. I do believe KC used it on caylee enough to put her down for a night of partying. Xanax can come in .25 dosages that you can cut in half, you can crush it dissolve it and put in in juice. There would be a feeling of grogginess and sleepiness, not death. IF KC gave her the whole .25 that night or even 2 or more pills I could see her dying as a result. Either by accident or on purpose.
I wonder when JB threw this out (written no less) if they will try to go with Caylee accidentally found KC's xanax bottle and ate them because they look like candy.
Obviously KC couldnt call 911 and say I overdosed my daughter on xanax help me! Or even my daughter got in my xanax stash help me! She was terrified of what CA would then think of her, THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN CA'S TO BEGIN WITH!!!!! After all she is a nurse and half the people I know are on xanax, ativan!!! Why wouldnt she be? She was a stressed out person obviously. KC stole $$$ from her why not her pills?
Then she panicks and hides the body. Simple as that!
I do think this HUGE scenario the own defense cooked up is the truth.
KC was looking to be this victim/famous person and went with this zanny story, never thinking ahead, thinking she was too good to get caught.
What I am so miffed about is how JB can say in the same breath that Caylee is in Mexico, kidnappers etc etc after this written document.

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one statement casey made way back was in regard to my mom will never forgive me- something of that words. always made me feel it may have been accident death. the duct tape and all was a fast think of how can i make this look like a kidnap if found- the drama and the storys .

littlemisslegal said:

one statement casey made way back was in regard to my mom will never forgive me- something of that words. always made me feel it may have been accident death. the duct tape and all was a fast think of how can i make this look like a kidnap if found- the drama and the storys .

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But she walked into Blockbuster's that very evening with her daughter now obviously missing from her care and rented a video about kidnappings with the use of duct tape and we know the tape was placed PRE-decomposition. Her actions are not that of a mother who's child just died of an accident.

Seventeen years ago next month my 18 month old grandson fell into a swimming pool. My youngest daughter was babysitting and found him right away. He is fine because the water was so cold but my daughter (his aunt) is still traumatized today about the safety of her children. It still affects her. KC was not affected whatsoever. You can't fake that kind of trauma and you can't hide it either. There's a reason the jailhouse video of KC's reactions to the day the remains were found is sealed. JMO