WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #3

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Ah, sorry, I see that you're doing this all with a PC based simulator.

If you can take off and pressurize the plane with the cargo door open then the simulator is wrong. If the plane is pressurized the cargo area is pressurized - the floor is not air tight, in fact there have been incidents due to the floor not being open enough to air flow as loss of pressurization in the cargo hold lead to collapse of the floor, taking the control cables out:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19720612-0

http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/ntsb/aircraft-accident-reports/AAR73-02.pdf

A quick back of the envelope calculation:

ISA pressure at 36,000 feet is 3.3 psi
ISA pressure at 8,000 feet is 11.0 psi (cabin altitude)

The B727-100 main cabin floor area is about 670 square feet. Cruising at 36,000 feet with a cabin altitude of 8,000 feet requires a pressure differential of 7.7 psi. 670 square feet is 96,480 square inches, so the pressure load on the cabin floor would be over 740,000 pounds if the passenger section was pressurized and the cargo section was not - that's more than an Airbus 380.

Remember, animals and cargo are transported down there and neither can handle near vacuum conditions and survive.

The B727-100 fuselage is roughly a cylinder 12 feet in diameter and 62 feet long, so we can calculate another somewhat interesting but pretty useless fact that the additional air needed at 36,000 feet to keep the pressure at 8,000 feet weighs about 270 pounds.

I don't know the actual dimensions of the door in the rear pressure bulkhead of N467US, but as I recall they were typically "Type I" size doors (vs. "Type A" size that you usually enter and exit through on the left side of the plane and "Type III" size like the plugs over the wings). "Type I" size doors are typically used on the right side of the plane for servicing the galleys and lavs, but that's really dependent on the particular plane. (There's also a "Type IV" for planes certified for 9 or fewer passengers.) A "Type I" exit has a minimum size of 24 x 48 inches. Even at 10,000 feet (10 psi outside), had the aircraft been pressurized to 8,000 feet the force on the door would have been 1,152 pounds - no way that it could have been opened, hence the requirement to keep the plane low and unpressurized.

For those that are curious and wonder about some nutball opening a door in flight, this is why it can't be done. In most aircraft the door has to be pulled in first, against cabin pressure. Even the plugs over the wings would require an inward pull of over 5,500 pounds at cruising altitude.
Click to expand...

And the implications for the Cooper case ... ?
 
MrShutter45 said:
Thanks! fills in some of the gaps, I still don't understand why they went to 30 degrees after being told 15?
Click to expand...

They went to 30° flap to slow down so "the guy in back" could get the stair down.

This is also the doc that gives the "wheels off" time.
 
georger said:
Maybe 'script' was the wrong word. So choices are: (a) FBI FP map, which R2 and current Seattle office endorses, (b) NWA search map, (c) some path east of V23, (d) Thomas FP way east of V23 which comes in over Troutdale (did not happen according to R2 and the
airport manager at Troutdale!), (e) Tom Kaye FP (whatever that is), (f) somebody else's flight path, (g) path west side of V23 as in, example: 'straight line between Toledo and
some position in midline in the Columbia west of PDX...'.

That's what I meant by script. :what:
Click to expand...

I was describing what is on the FBI map, which I think is what Mr...45 was referring to. The NWA search map is basically the same positions but only for around the 2011 time frame, plus the addition of an interpolated position "A". Based on research re. the system that produced the data, and analysis of the plots, I'm certain these are the only valid position plots. And I don't believe the FBI would keep the charts out in plain sight just to mislead the public. The times on the plots, however, are ambiguous.
 
hominid said:
I see your problem. You're flying the wrong plane. It's supposed to be N467US, not N463US:)
Click to expand...

That is what they call a re-paint, someone made that plane and put those numbers on there, If I knew how to do PS good I could fix it, I changed the numbers thru the software only, I looked hard for the plane with those numbers and the right color but came up empty handed :banghead:

I wish someone would of made the 100 like the 200 I have, that one is correct on the paint job.
 
MrShutter45 said:
That is what they call a re-paint, someone made that plane and put those numbers on there, If I knew how to do PS good I could fix it, I changed the numbers thru the software only, I looked hard for the plane with those numbers and the right color but came up empty handed.
Click to expand...

It's still mighty purty.
 
hominid said:
I was describing what is on the FBI map, which I think is what Mr...45 was referring to. The NWA search map is basically the same positions but only for around the 2011 time frame, plus the addition of an interpolated position "A". Based on research and analysis re. the system that produced the data, I'm certain these are the only valid position plots. And I don't believe the FBI would keep the charts out in plain sight just to mislead the public. The times on the plots, however, are ambiguous.
Click to expand...

I agree, however one of my goals is to see if a mistake was made anywhere down the line, will I be able to find one, I don't know but think it's worth a shot in order to find out if the numbers actually line up.

I have to email the software company to see if this is supposed to be like this with the pressurizing issues, I have some bugs in the system that might require a total system download again, when the software is loading up, the cabin alarm goes off or it repeats the words "glide slope" when it should just show the uploading line.
 
hominid said:
It's still mighty purty.
Click to expand...

It's cool but would look much cooler with the right colors and numbers on the side :rocker:

my 200 looks awesome I think.

http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee380/dave767/?action=view&current=200altitude.jpg

also doing a final upgrade on terrain called Ultimate terrain USA


Scenery Solutions Announces The Ultimate Terrain Series Of Products.....

Roads - Night Lighting - Rails - Coastlines - Lakes - Rivers - Streams - Landclass - Land Polygons

Have you ever looked at one of the online internet map services, or advanced graphical GPS units, and wished for that kind of detail and accuracy in the FS2004 terrain ?

Using commercial data licensed from companies like Navteq, TeleAtlas, and DMTI Spatial, Scenery Solutions has created a FS2004 terrain upgrade package like no other to date.

Each package includes ALL of the following:

Adds every available road from the chosen commercial navigation data set. Each road is accurately placed in FS2004 to match its real world location.

Adds enhanced railroads.

Adds a new night lighting environment unlike anything else on the market. This feature will add actual points of light, to simulate street lights and automobiles. Previously, this functionality has only been seen in many professional flight simulators.

Adds detailed Oceanic coastlines, plus islands, lakes, rivers and streams (USA only). No more roads over water !

Adds a more accurate landclass representing metropolitan areas.

Adds detailed land polygons for things like parks, golf courses, and cemeteries. The boundaries will align with the road boundaries, just like you see them on high quality mapping services and GPS units.

All of this is packaged together for a complete FS2004 terrain enhancement. Also includes highly configurable utility for managing the various layers of Ultimate Terrain scenery.

I'm like Tim Taylor from Home Improvement needing more power for everything I do
 
Well, I wasn't talking to you, but here it is in smaller words.

If you are using a simulator to try to figure out how things happened, and the simulator is not accurate, your results are suspect.
Click to expand...

That would be correct, That's why I'm going thru everything checking all points from front to back making sure it's running correctly, I have nothing but time so I'm in no rush to start real flight data.

Thanks for the info on the doors by the way :rocker:

A lot of the forms I'm reading about this software state if you don't want to learn how to fly, buy a different program because this is pretty close to the real deal as far as controlling the plane, I also did some spot checking on the accuracy of the GPS and seems to be pretty dam good so far.

Complete with
fully functional cockpit gauges, knob, dials
over 7 pages of weather data including realtime weather data every 15 minutes
day, date, time
complete control of cabin, amount of passengers and crew (including luggage and crew gear)
Garmin GPS
ATC
doors are operable
Cold dead start to turn key start
added on Ground Enviroment Pro, sky 6, and now updating to Ultimate Terrain USA
727-100
727-200
Cargo and passenger
every small to large airport is on here
really is a good sim for the age and for use on a computer VS a pro set up.
 
Mr45

Bravo on your work to simulate the flight path. I am looking forward to your results. I agree that this type of modeling could uncover something unusual that could be looked into.

The talk I gave at the conference included an analysis of the SAGE radar viewing angles for the flight path to determine if there was any time that the plane would have been in a radar shadow. There was no time that happened according to the analysis. This in my opinion makes it less likely the generated flight path was in error.

Tom Kaye
 
TomKaye said:
Mr45

Bravo on your work to simulate the flight path. I am looking forward to your results. I agree that this type of modeling could uncover something unusual that could be looked into.

The talk I gave at the conference included an analysis of the SAGE radar viewing angles for the flight path to determine if there was any time that the plane would have been in a radar shadow. There was no time that happened according to the analysis. This in my opinion makes it less likely the generated flight path was in error.

Tom Kaye
Click to expand...

Thanks Tom! I don't believe I have ever read anyone doing this so I figured what the hell it's worth a try and possibly find something, ya never know until ya do it :please:
 
TomKaye said:
The talk I gave at the conference included an analysis of the SAGE radar viewing angles for the flight path to determine if there was any time that the plane would have been in a radar shadow. There was no time that happened according to the analysis. This in my opinion makes it less likely the generated flight path was in error.

Tom Kaye
Click to expand...

Tom,

Did your analysis relate to the Mt. Hebo radar site?
 
TomKaye said:
Mr45

Bravo on your work to simulate the flight path. I am looking forward to your results. I agree that this type of modeling could uncover something unusual that could be looked into.

The talk I gave at the conference included an analysis of the SAGE radar viewing angles for the flight path to determine if there was any time that the plane would have been in a radar shadow. There was no time that happened according to the analysis. This in my opinion makes it less likely the generated flight path was in error.

Tom Kaye
Click to expand...

Did you uncover who made the FBI map and how and when (the process)?

By 'radar shadow' I assume you are talking about the length from SEA to
PDX. Who was watching the radar? And what of Jerry Thomas's highly
tauted 'McChord radar tapes' being stored at a secret military facility out east?
 
hominid said:
Mr...45,

I would like you to stay. When you get the hang of it you can just ignore whatever you want to on a forum. Participate the way you want to. Skip the garbage. I will be bypassing "we know alls." You post something... I'll read it and respond if I have anything to say about it. You've been doing something potentially useful here.
Click to expand...

Yes, please stay - there is a way to "ignore" these "we know alls"!!

Go to "User CP" - top of the page on the left after "Home", then scroll down on the left side to "Settings & Options" you'll see "Edit Ignore List" -click and put whomever you like on there!

edited to add: I would really like to see the results of your "flight"!!!
 
Oh I should have read further - stepped in... :rocker:
 
Sluggo says this on his site for take off time?

19:33 PST
Flt 305 takes off
None
Estimated based on next transmission.
19:37 PST
SEA CNTR request Flt 305 ident. [this is a process of making sure ATC is tracking the right “Blip” on their radar]. And verify assigned altitude of 10,000 ft.
SEA CNTR
Comm. with SEA CNTR
19:40 PST
Flt 305 reports through 6500 ft. and trying to get the steps down back there
Pilot
Comm. with SEA CNTR
19:40 PST
Flt 305 reports leveling off at 7,000 ft. Cooper wants the stairs down and they are slowing to about 160 KIAS.
Pilot
Comm. with SEA CNTR
19:42 PST
Flt 305 reports “14 NM out of SEA on Victor-23. Cooper is trying to get the door down, Stew is with us, he cannot get the stairs down. We now have an aft stair light on.
Pilot
Comm. with Flt-Ops MSP
19:44 PST
Flt 305 advises they will hold at 7,000 ft. We have the back steps down now and it looks like we aren’t going to be able to climb anymore.
Pilot
Comm. with SEA CNTR
19:45 PST
Flt 305 reports 19 NM DME out of SEA at 7,000 ft. No comm.. with Cooper but have an aft stair light.
Pilot
Comm. with Flt-Ops MSP
19:45 PST
Fly Ops MSP advises that after a while someone will have to go back and take a look to see if he is out of the aircraft. Also, if they have to go any distance in that configuration their indicated optimum speed is 170 knots. Portland, Medford, and Red Bluff are available alternate airports.
Flt-Ops MSP
Comm. with Flt-Ops MSP
19:46 PST
Flt-Ops SEA has the enroute weather, its Fog and Haze
Flt-Ops SEA
Comm. between Flt-Ops MSP and Flt-Ops SEA
19:48 PST
Flt 305 reports 160 KIAS, which is about 5 knots above stall speed. Holding at 7,000 ft. Fuel flow is 4500 gal/hr.
Pilot
Comm. with Flt-Ops MSP
19:48 PST
Flt Ops MSP advises they will not make it to Reno in that configuration. Unless he is gone. Also, the higher the cabin is [meaning the lower the pressure due to altitude] the better if you guys have mask on [supplied oxygen]
F
 
georger said:
Did you uncover who made the FBI map and how and when (the process)?
Click to expand...

TK: No, there was no info at all about the maps.

georger said:
By 'radar shadow' I assume you are talking about the length from SEA to PDX. Who was watching the radar? And what of Jerry Thomas's highly tauted 'McChord radar tapes' being stored at a secret military facility out east?
Click to expand...

TK: By "Radar Shadow" I mean a mountain or some such thing that an airplane would fly behind and the radar would not be able to see it. As it turns out, the SAGE system had auxiliary radars to fill in the shadowed areas. It was NOT just one radar at McChord and another at PDX that had the ability to see the aircraft. There was no info at all about any radar data being stored anywhere.
 
I find the entire process you are all doing facsinating.

I though know little about planes but to fly in them. I do enjoy following it all :)
 
TomKaye said:
TK: No, there was no info at all about the maps.



TK: By "Radar Shadow" I mean a mountain or some such thing that an airplane would fly behind and the radar would not be able to see it. As it turns out, the SAGE system had auxiliary radars to fill in the shadowed areas. It was NOT just one radar at McChord and another at PDX that had the ability to see the aircraft. There was no info at all about any radar data being stored anywhere.
Click to expand...

yes - all previously established. thanks.
 
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