934 users online (161 members and 773 guests)  


Websleuths News


Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 30
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    8

    New and have some questions.

    Hello everyone. I am from Australia and have just started taking an interest in the JBR case. This is mainly because we have not had the coverage over here as you would have in the US and last week for the first time (to my knowledge) they aired PMPT here. I was so saddened by the story and immediately went to the internet to look up everything I could. I have basically been here since and (as my husband say's) am possibly obsessed with the case! It has wrenched my heart and I could not imagine who could do what was done to such a beautiful baby. I am Mum to two gorgeous girls and actually my youngest whom is 4 reminds me very much of JBR. Anyhow (this is going to be long I hope this is ok)..I am not convinced the parents (or Patsy alone) did it nor am I unconvinced. I guess as you say I am in between..alot of stuff points to them but then alot also contradicts. I have had the opportunity to read through different forums especially through one that is very much against the fact that the parents could have done it so of course one can be very umm..confused LOL..
    Anyway some questions I have which I am sure have been asked before but I have not had the opportunity to come across them yet are..
    1..How much time did the Ramsey's allow themselves to get to the Airplane..what time were they to be at the plane? (I read that they were up around 5.30 ish am and had about an hour?)..Not much time when you think how long it takes for most of us to get two kids up, maybe bathed, dressed and fed. I would need at least 2 hours!
    2..Have JR and PR explained why they didn't do a thorough check of the house before/After calling 911? If it was me I would have checked every nook and cranny for disturbance and the point of entry/exit.
    3..Has the 911 tape been publicly released now showing Burkes aledged voice in the background?
    4..What was the triangular shaped abrasion on JBRs neck determined to be? Was that meant to have been caused by the possibly used Stun Gun?
    5..Why didn't the Medical Examiner determine any marks to be caused by a stun gun?
    6..Are the Ramseys still to this very day actively campaigning or involved in finding the killer(s) of JBR?
    I imagine things are much quieter there than before as most of what I have read seems to dwindle from around 2001 (nothing new).
    I am sorry for the length of this, I am very new to this and belatedly so. I would love to hear any answers/comments on this and hope like everyone else that one day soon, JBRs killer(s) are brought down. God bless you JBR.
    Nikki

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    343
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikki
    1..How much time did the Ramsey's allow themselves to get to the Airplane..what time were they to be at the plane? (I read that they were up around 5.30 ish am and had about an hour?)..Not much time when you think how long it takes for most of us to get two kids up, maybe bathed, dressed and fed. I would need at least 2 hours!
    2..Have JR and PR explained why they didn't do a thorough check of the house before/After calling 911? If it was me I would have checked every nook and cranny for disturbance and the point of entry/exit.
    3..Has the 911 tape been publicly released now showing Burkes aledged voice in the background?
    4..What was the triangular shaped abrasion on JBRs neck determined to be? Was that meant to have been caused by the possibly used Stun Gun?
    5..Why didn't the Medical Examiner determine any marks to be caused by a stun gun?
    6..Are the Ramseys still to this very day actively campaigning or involved in finding the killer(s) of JBR?
    hi nikki. welcome. here are some answers to your questions...

    1-JR was a pilot, so they were taking a private jet. they didn't have to have all the advance time most people need. they said it took 30 minutes to get to the airport, and they were planning on leaving the house at 6:30am for a 7am flight. seems like their timeline here is ok.

    2-i think that it makes sense (if they are innocent), that the ramseys did not check the house before calling 911. they had a ransom note and a daughter not in her room. after 911, they did a quick once-over of the house. there are many debates around this issue...who saw what when? JR definitely went down in the basement before 1pm on 12/26/96, but never checked the wine cellar. he did notice the broken window, knew that it was an entry point (since he broke it to get in one time when he lost his keys), but didn't tell police!! this baffles me!

    3-the 911 call can be heard here. this is just the regular call...no enhancement. i don't know if anyone's enhanced it and posted it online. if you don't want to hear the audio, there are transcripts of it all over the place.

    4-there is an alleged stun gun mark on JBR's neck. this is a hot topic of debate.

    5-the ME saw the marks but did not attribute them to a stun gun. by the time this was suggested, the body was buried. it was requested that the body be exhumed for further examination, but the ramseys were not ok with that. on the one hand, that makes sense...nobody wants to dig up their murdered daughter. but on the other hand, if it could help find her killer, it would be tough, but worth it. at this point, all stun gun evidence and speculation must come from pictures, and will, most likely, always be debated.

    6-not to my knowledge. the foundation they set up in JBR's name is no longer active, and it seems the ramseys just figure this is unsolvable, or they were involved. pick your poison.

    hope this helps.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    3,053
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikki
    1..How much time did the Ramsey's allow themselves to get to the Airplane..what time were they to be at the plane? (I read that they were up around 5.30 ish am and had about an hour?)..Not much time when you think how long it takes for most of us to get two kids up, maybe bathed, dressed and fed. I would need at least 2 hours!
    2..Have JR and PR explained why they didn't do a thorough check of the house before/After calling 911? If it was me I would have checked every nook and cranny for disturbance and the point of entry/exit.
    3..Has the 911 tape been publicly released now showing Burkes aledged voice in the background?
    4..What was the triangular shaped abrasion on JBRs neck determined to be? Was that meant to have been caused by the possibly used Stun Gun?
    5..Why didn't the Medical Examiner determine any marks to be caused by a stun gun?
    6..Are the Ramseys still to this very day actively campaigning or involved in finding the killer(s) of JBR?


    Welcome Nikki,

    I'll take a swing at answering your six questions:

    1. I agree with you the Ramseys needed more than one hour to wake up, get everyone dressed and fed, and get to the airport (a 20-minute drive) by 6:30 for an all-day flight to Michigan. They're lying. The Ramseys had to have gotten up BEFORE 5:30 AM and, IMO, they did.

    2. I agree with you the Ramseys probably did thoroughly search the house looking for missing six-year-old JonBenet early that morning prior to calling 911. To not have done so would have been extremely irresponsible. And if they searched the house, including the basement, then they would have found JonBenet and, IMO, they did.

    3. The entire 911 tape wasn't enhanced -- only the trailing several seconds. When the original 911 tape is played you won't hear anything intelligible at the end. The enhanced several seconds is a separate tape and in firm custody of law enforcement. Burke's voice is on it.

    4. The triangular red mark on the front left part of JonBenet's neck is still a mystery. It is not believed to be a stun gun injury. IMO it resembles an abrasion caused by the knot of a rope that had been wrapped around her neck to hang her. I have seen similar abrasions on hanging victims.

    5. The medical examiner, Dr. John Meyer, originally misdiagnosed the stun gun marks and called them abrasions, but when additional information was presented to him he changed his opinion and agreed the small twin marks on JonBenet were consistent with stun gun injuries. IMO a stun gun had been used on JonBenet.

    6. IMO the Ramseys were never interested in finding the killer. They knew from the beginning who killed JonBenet. They lied to LE from the very first day, as proven by Burke's voice on the enhanced 911 tape, and are still lying. The Ramseys refused to fully cooperate with the investigation and are engaged in an obvious coverup -- IMO in a failed attempt to distance Burke, and perhaps one of his friends, from the crime.

    BlueCrab

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    8

    Thankyou..

    ..for the answers to my questions, much appreciated..Since my last post I have spent many more hours pondering and researching.
    If you were going to murder a family member what a perfect place to do it..at home..in your own environment that is going to clash with any evidence because it is going to be expected that fibres, DNA, hairs etc would be expected to be found there and you could basically have an answer for everything or simply say "I don't remember". Of course JR messing up the scene where JBR was found was not a good thing, no one can say how you would re-act finding your loved one and I have no doubt I would take my daughter into my arms and hug her to me but to carry her away from the scene, I don't think I would somehow.
    Oh there is so much going against the Ramseys isn't there?
    I am probably going through and feeling how you ppl felt when this was all so new so please excuse my going over old ground as I am still in the learning stages of the case and so very, very touched by it. As said before, we are quite a bit behind here in Australia and the coverage is very much less. Are the authorities still looking for the killer(s) to this very day?
    I have to go to bed now..I have a terrible headache from all the thinking..I do find this very emotionally draining.
    Nikki

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    8

    Bluecrab..

    6. IMO the Ramseys were never interested in finding the killer. They knew from the beginning who killed JonBenet. They lied to LE from the very first day, as proven by Burke's voice on the enhanced 911 tape, and are still lying. The Ramseys refused to fully cooperate with the investigation and are engaged in an obvious coverup -- IMO in a failed attempt to distance Burke, and perhaps one of his friends, from the crime.


    ...may I ask, why in your opinion, do you feel they may be needing to distance Burke from this? Sorry, I am sure you have explained it at some stage, I need to try to get through some more older threads.
    I wondered about they're sons involvement in this but couldn't come up with anything, am probably more inclined to go with PR losing it with JBR and it went too far to a point of no return?
    Still learning!
    Nikki

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    3,053
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikki

    ...may I ask, why in your opinion, do you feel they may be needing to distance Burke from this?

    Nikki,

    IMO the Ramseys are trying to distance Burke from the crime because they know he was somehow involved. Burke may or may not be the actual killer, but he at least knows who the killer is.

    There's plenty of evidence pointing to Burke being at the crime scene when JonBenet was murdered, such as:

    1. Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl of pineapple from which JonBenet snacked from approximately one hour before she died.

    2. Burke could not be eliminated by the Colorado Bureau of Investigation as the writer of the childish-sounding ransom note.

    3. The parents lied about Burke's whereabouts during the 911 call at 5:52 AM.

    4. JonBenet's body had been wiped down and re-dressed in size 12/14 panties, a size way too big for her -- something any adult would have known not to do.

    5. The parents had lied about no one in the family having ever owned Hi-Tec boots -- but Burke was eventially identified by law enforcement as having owned Hi-Tec boots that matched the Hi-Tec logo left in the mold next to JonBenet's body in the wine cellar.


    I can recite many more items of evidence pointing to Burke, but these are enough for you to get an idea where I'm coming from.

    BlueCrab

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    8

    I have just finished reading..

    the transcript from the Atlanta interviews..What struck me was how hard PR seems to come across for interviewing..If I was one of the interviewers I would have been so frustrated..she does not seem to be able to give any helpful answers, its all, "I can't remember" or "I'm unsure" or "I could have, I just don't know" and most of the questions she is asked she should know the answers to! I would remember bathing my daughter that day, I would remember changing her clothes or at least checking she had appropriate clothing on, I certainly would know if she had big panties on or panties that were not her norm. Is it possible she has post traumatic amnesia (there could be another wording for it)? and I am serious here..has it ever been determined? Is there such a thing? I know I have read somewhere in a forum that not remembering everything proves she is innocent because if she had an answer for everything it would seem she was guilty, like she had rehearsed or something. She was doing nothing to help..Another thing I noticed..She can sometimes come across as very "young" in her way of comprehending and then she can be quite mature..Her lawyer along with the interviewers seemed to have to re-word alot of questions for her that were pretty straight forward..The RN was a bit like that too..childish sections to it and then mature..I don't mean to sound rude but was she well educated?
    Nikki

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    NSW Australia
    Posts
    9,183
    Nikki

    By all accounts Patsy is no fool

    She majored in journalism at university....

    I too am a aussie and i too saw PMPT and am quite obsessed....i have a little boy who is 6 and if that happened to my little boy i could never laugh or smile or be happy again...which cant be said for Patsy....ive seen footage of her laughing and smiling...admittely it was nearly 10 years after it happened,but still.......

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    10
    Narlacat and Nikki, I never post on the JBR forum any more, just got tired of the back and forth bickering, but I'm an Aussie too and I got interested in this case over 3 years ago.

    I started out with the notion that the Ramsey's were innocent but the more I read about their behaviour, I sadly came to the conclusion that they simply had to be involved somehow. None of us likes to imagine that a mother or father could do that, but the reality is that nothing the Ramsey's did that day could be considered "normal" behaviour by anyones standard.

    Those who believe them innocent will tell you differently, and I'm tired of debating it, but as has been said many times, you only have to look at the behaviour of parents like the Van Dams and Mark Lunsford to see how any normal parent would react.

    Firstly, if you haven't done so, I would recommend that you read Steve Thomas' book "Jon-Benet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation". I know it's available in my library so it's probably available in yours. If not you could order it from Amazon. The second book I would recommend is Perfect Murder, Perfect Town by Laurence Schiller.

    To get a really good cohesive thread on the Ramsey inconsistencies, go across to www.forumsforjustice.org and on the JBR forum there are a couple of threads devoted exclusively to the lies etc that the Ramsey's told. When it's laid out chronologically like that it's pretty hard to believe they know nothing.

    I know only too well how this case can suck you in!

    JMO

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    NSW Australia
    Posts
    9,183
    Thanx for the recommendations Zotto
    I started out with the same notion as you and the more ive read, the more ive had to accept that somehow the parents were involved....it is a sad realization yes
    and yes,im sucked in.....


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Louisville
    Posts
    324
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCrab
    5. The medical examiner, Dr. John Meyer, originally misdiagnosed the stun gun marks and called them abrasions, but when additional information was presented to him he changed his opinion and agreed the small twin marks on JonBenet were consistent with stun gun injuries. IMO a stun gun had been used on JonBenet. BlueCrab
    This is blatant misinformation (as is your accusal of Burke and his pals, but that's another matter).

    Abrasions are not thermal marks. Dr. Meyer never misdiagnosed or changed his opinion. No credible physician believes a stun gun was used.
    It's just my opinion.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    8

    Hello fellow aussies...

    Hello narlacat and Zotto, Lovely to see some fellow aussies interested in this case. Thankyou for the information. I am currently awaiting a copy of PMPT on DVD to be delivered and am off to the library tomorrow to see what books they have to offer on JBR.

    The case certainly is mind boggling and I in no way see Patsy as a fool now, I think she is one smart cookie in a most convenient way!

    Nikki

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    3,053
    Quote Originally Posted by halycon
    This is blatant misinformation (as is your accusal of Burke and his pals, but that's another matter).

    Abrasions are not thermal marks. Dr. Meyer never misdiagnosed or changed his opinion. No credible physician believes a stun gun was used.

    halycon,

    Page 431, PMPT pb:

    "When they had gathered sufficient information, Ainsworth, Pete Hofstrom, Trip DeMuth, and Detective Sergeant Wickman met with the coroner, John Meyer. After reviewing the photos and this new information, Meyer concluded that the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were, in fact, consistent with those produced by a stun gun.

    "Soon after, Ainsworth learned of a 1988 Larimer County murder in which a stun gun had been used on a thirteen-month-old girl, Michalea Hughes, who had been sexually assaulted and killed. Ainsworth met with Dr. Robert Deters, the pathologist on the case, and showed him the autopsy photos of JonBenet. Deters agreed that the marks were consistent with a stun gun injury."

    BlueCrab

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Louisville
    Posts
    324
    BlueCrab, thank you for your response.

    There is much more to this than your cite indicates. "Consistent with" doesn't mean it IS. Yes, some of the marks are similar in size and possibly in color, but she had a number of sets of marks on her body. They don't all fit that description. If Meyer had taken the stand the prosecutor would have had him describe the slides, which clearly prove the marks are not thermal. They're abrasions. Surface marks, not burns. A jury will easily see the difference.

    But your reminder of the baby case is helpful because it might show where Ainsworth and Smit got the idea to bring a stun gun into the Ramsey case.
    It's just my opinion.

  15. #15
    Patsy accidently mortally wounded JonBenet in a heat of passion. She struck JonBenet over the head with a flashlight...then not knowing how to explain it to authorities she staged a crime...molestation, strangulation....set up a fake kidnapping.

    Why?

    Plain and simple....self preservation.

    This is my opinion.
    ...We have said to ourselves, look, there is never going to be a victory in this, there is no victory...John Ramsey: 6/24/98

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast