Teachers Pay To Be Based On Students' Test Scores

I think this would be a good plan. It rewards the teachers who put forth the extra effort, and hopefully it will be the best thing for the students.

Houston to Tie Teachers' Pay to Test Scores Fox News--1/11/06

Excerpts:

Houston is about to become the biggest school district in the nation to tie teachers' pay to their students' test scores.

School Superintendent Abe Saavedra wants to offer teachers as much as $3,000 more per school year if their students improve on state and national tests. The program could eventually grow to as much as $10,000 in merit pay.

The school board is set to vote on the plan Thursday. Five of the nine board members have said they support it.

"School systems traditionally have been paying the best teacher the same amount as we pay the worst teacher, based on the number of years they have been teaching," Saavedra said. "It doesn't make sense that we would pay the best what we're paying the worst. That's why it's going to change."

Traditionally, Houston teachers' experience and education levels have determined their pay scale. Starting teachers make about $36,000 a year. Salaries can rise to about $45,000 with advanced degrees and more experience.

Texas has no collective bargaining, meaning the teachers union can lobby the district for raises but cannot strike.

"If we are not motivated, we cannot motivate our children," she said.

The plan is divided into three sections, with as much as $1,000 in bonus pay each.

The first would award bonuses to all teachers in schools rated acceptable or higher, based on scores on the state's main standardized test. The second ties pay to student improvement on a standardized test that compares performance to nationwide norms.

In the third section, reading and math teachers whose students fare well compared with others in the district would be eligible for bonuses.

Bonuses for all sections will be given only if students show improvement in the top half of scores.

More at link http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,181369,00.html

Sounds good - so long as there is an adjustment for the teachers who teach the disabled/retarded students.

WELL..................


let the crime shine in.......................

in highschool YEARS AGO, our dear teacher MR. PHILIPCHUK.................FROM ALBERTA CANADA................ knew that the province/states council base payrate and other things on the schools academic grades.................


WHAT DID PHILIPCHUK DO??????????

GO next door to his little office to get drunk while his students took an "OPEN BOOK" test on each and every test...............


and then make a LOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT OF NOISE prior to entering.

that's how this WONDERFUL TEACHER KEPT HIS JOB.


BUT I'M CERTAIN NO ONE ELSE CAN FIGURE THIS OUT.

Details said:

Sounds good - so long as there is an adjustment for the teachers who teach the disabled/retarded students.

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That is the problem. Most elementary schools group for reading and math. So now, no one will want the low group. I do NOT believe in merit based teaching. I was on level three...which meant 3000 more a year for me. However, you can't help if you get a few drug babies(mother's using while pregnant) in your class and you should not be penalized. A principal that observes classes frequently knows who is not doing their job. This will cause teachers to put even more pressure on those students that might be already working to their fullest potential. Career ladder didn't work fairly and neither will this.

I think this would force the teachers to "teach to the test" even more than they do now.

OOOOH boy, I am a teacher and I cringe at this! I teach at-risk kids (in the old days we would have called them delinquents or incorrigibles)! The day I am rated on the things they do or don't do is the day I find a new profession. This scares me and our staff. The way many parents are now, I don't care how skilled the teacher is, the parents ruin the kids and expect teachers to work miracles while NOT holding them or their kids accountable. You can't do a thing with them (kids or parents)! I have parents who cook meth, lock their kids in boxes, come to conferences drunk, leave town for days while their kids are alone, won't allow their kids to shower more than once a week (hey, hot water's expensive)...these are just a few things that pop into my head. It's sad. Most subs in our district won't even come to our site. It takes a lot of guts to try and work with these kids. I'm just glad if I can impart a few civilized behaviors into their lives. I know there are poor teachers, but this would not be a level playing field, believe me. Many good teachers would leave the ranks, myself included.

Eve

Eve, you are 100% correct. :clap: :clap: :clap:

eve said:

OOOOH boy, I am a teacher and I cringe at this! I teach at-risk kids (in the old days we would have called them delinquents or incorrigibles)! The day I am rated on the things they do or don't do is the day I find a new profession. This scares me and our staff. The way many parents are now, I don't care how skilled the teacher is, the parents ruin the kids and expect teachers to work miracles while NOT holding them or their kids accountable. You can't do a thing with them (kids or parents)! I have parents who cook meth, lock their kids in boxes, come to conferences drunk, leave town for days while their kids are alone, won't allow their kids to shower more than once a week (hey, hot water's expensive)...these are just a few things that pop into my head. It's sad. Most subs in our district won't even come to our site. It takes a lot of guts to try and work with these kids. I'm just glad if I can impart a few civilized behaviors into their lives. I know there are poor teachers, but this would not be a level playing field, believe me. Many good teachers would leave the ranks, myself included.

Eve

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Amen.

I am not a teacher, but I am one of the parents that work very hard with my children so they succeed. Every single one of their teachers, from Kindergarten to current grades, has told me that parents like me are few and far between. (NOT bragging here) I'm still shocked when I hear that.

I think it's wrong to link pay to test scores.

The worst thing is tenure. Once most teachers receive this they pull back and could care less. Believe me, I have watched it with teachers my kids have had over the years.

I disagree with this 100%

I don't teach mentally challenged or retarded children. But I teach a lot of kids who have very low reading skills and can barely write a sentence, much less a paragraph. I have students who couldn't care less about school and come either to 1) show off their clothes, 2) see boy/girlfriend, 3) sell/buy drugs, or 4) because a judge somewhere told them they could go to school or go to jail, but didn't require that they do anything in school other than show up.

Down the hall, a teacher teaches gifted/talented students, honors students, and AP students. You can bet most of her students pass, where as mine don't, and it's not because I don't care about my students' education any less or put any fewer hours into trying to teach them. So how is it fair that our salaries would be affected?

I admit there are bad teachers out there. My kindergarten teacher was a drunk, for Pete's sake, and one of the teachers in my school was fired a couple of years ago for sleeping with his students. But MOST teachers are dedicated and good and care deeply about their students. When I see my students fail, sometimes I think I am the only one who stresses and worries about it -- the students hardly seem to care.

Punishing teachers with their paycheck will only do one thing: send a whole lot of teachers -- good ones -- looking for a new job.

Think about a teacher's job. Everyone says it is so great because teachers get summers and holidays off. Well, in my school district we are expected to know the state standards and make sure that what we do in class reflects the children learning toward those standards. We are expected to prepare them for state standardized tests and the SAT and ACT. We turn in weekly lesson plans, which, for me and many other teachers I know, are often pages long (objectives, standards, procedures, assessments, how what we are doing will help students succeed). Many of us tutor in the mornings or after school. Many of us show up early and stay late so that we are available to students if they need extra help. We are expected to keep in contact with parents if students aren't succeeding, and also to call parents to praise students who are succeeding. We have grading in the evenings and on weekends. Many of us also teach summer school.

Please, when you encounter a bad teacher or read about one in the paper, don't let that determine your perception of the profession of teaching. Most teachers, after all, became teachers not because we thought we'd make a lot of money, but because we love kids and want to help them learn.

I feel sorry for those Texas teachers. What looks like a reward to many seems like a punishment to me.

I think it's unfair. One reason being my husband is an 8th grade teacher. These kids come to him not being able to spell or write a sentence, AND HE'S NOT ALLOWED TO CORRECT THEM IF THEIR SPELLING IS WRONG or anything else for that matter. Another reason I think it's unfair is because there are children who just have trouble learning and no matter what you do they cannot pass a test. Believe me, I know, for years my daughter couldn't pass a spelling test. We would study all week and she would still fail. This year is the first year that she is actually getting could grades. And she TRIES HARD and always has. So, this kid failed more tests then she passed in previous years, even though she stuidied her heart out. The teacher should be responsible for that? I don't think so, everyone knew how hard she was trying. So if they have a child like my daughter, they would be broke, IMO. It's totally ridiculous, IMO.

AND HE'S NOT ALLOWED TO CORRECT THEM IF THEIR SPELLING IS WRONG

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Mrs.Mush, why not? Is this some kind of Whole Language thing? I swear, Whole Language is responsible for a whole generation of children with no ability to read or write.

this doesnt seem fair....

Mr. E said:

Mrs.Mush, why not? Is this some kind of Whole Language thing? I swear, Whole Language is responsible for a whole generation of children with no ability to read or write.

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Well, not really. It's because, are you ready??? Hold on to your seat, they are not allowed to make them feel bad about themselves, or embarrassed them in front of other students. It's such a bunch of BS. That's why our children got to private school. The NYC Board of Education is such a crock. Do you know, that they have 6th graders that are not allowed to read on their own?? The teacher reads Green Eggs and Ham to them, and they all sit in circle while she reads it. I swear to you this is the truth. My husband saw it with his own eyes. It is disgusting what is going on with education in this state.

I am a firm believer in reading aloud to students of all ages. I have had more than one student who has told me that they've never had anybody read to them, much less read a book on their own. Plus, all students love being read to, even the 16- and 17-year-olds I teach.

That said, Green Eggs and Ham??? To 6th graders??? What's the point?

Whole Language is all about self-esteem. God forbid you correct a child's "naturally spelled" words because it might make them feel badly about themselves. You should see all the products of Whole Language strutting around my school, so impressed with themselves that they can do no wrong, yet without the ability to express themselves clearly in written or spoken language. Very proud -- of the fact that they've gotten through so many years of school without having to read a book!

I do think something like this is needed - right now there is no merit anything for teachers, and that is just plain wrong. A wonderful teacher who works with the kids, and really tries to teach them gets the same pay as a lousy teacher who just acts as a babysitter.

Now it's a matter of doing it right, recording the improvement in your students while they are in your class, relative to their previous year, etc., but even though parents are essential, the teacher still has a large role. A good teacher can motivate a bad student, a bad teacher can make a good student have a sudden slump in their grades. They shouldn't be paid nor treated the same!

All students, all classes are different, and sometimes a student will do well or poorly for reasons that have nothing to do with the teacher, but things like that should average out. Even stupidity like Whole Language won't change whether or not your students improve on tests or fail to.

I completely agree with you, Eve. There are SO MANY multiple layers of issues with this one...where does one begin.

I feel sorry for teachers and the issues they have to contend with in today's society. I can still emphathize with teachers, in spite of the many issues we've had in our own school district re: our son's special needs. We don't blame the teachers...we lay blame right where it belongs...with the school district...and that's a whole 'nuther' story.

I am really enjoying the thoughts on this thread, thank you!

Mr. E, I hear ya. Right now I work 50 hours a week and have 15 "preps." During the day, I teach English 9,10,11,12, Writing Basic Skills (getting them ready for the state test), and the electives of Character Education, Newsletter Production and Creative Writing.

I also teach credit make-up classes after school: English 9,10,11 and 12 and I teach Night School one night a week which is comprised of English 10, 11 and 12. All of my students have failed or been kicked out of the regular high schools or have had interruptions in their education due to drugs, pregnancies, foster care, dropping out, being "on the run," etc. I teach summer school too.

Because of our student population we have a real revenue problem. We get state reimbursement only for "Full-time Enrollments" - it's a complicated formula, but the bottom line is: the revolving door effect and lack of progress by our typical student causes us to have very limited resources, even in comparison to the mainstream schools, who complain regularly of resource problems in most districts.

Therefore, we have only a part-time secretary and no behavior aides, guidance counselors or other specialists (our Social Studies teacher does have her EBD license) and we have by far THE most challenging kids, except those in lock-up somewhere and many of ours are coming to us straight from lock-up.

So, I am also an "advisor" to a group of students, and that includes making sure their grad plans and credits are in order. I have to do my own drops, adds, and much data entry related to student records. I do not have a duty-free lunch and often spend my prep hour de-escalating a student too disruptive to be in a classroom.

I have about 170 students. Outside the classroom, this involves correcting and recording their work, holding conferences, talking to probation officers and parents.

I better not start in on what it's like in the classroom. You get the idea. When people talk about what a cushy job teaching is, I invite them to spend a few days with me at work. They'd keel over, let me tell ya.

Eve

P.S. If I based motivation on pay or pay relating to how well my students did on tests I would have no real motivation at all. My motivation is the hope that I will help some kid see welfare or prison is not the way to go. The only thanks I want is for someone to come back someday and tell me just that.

Basing teacher pay on student test scores will not improve learning. It MAY improve test scores, but the teachers are the ones with more at stake, so they are the ones who will make sure the students do well. Ensuring that an unmotivated student does well so you get paid will mean "teaching to the test" or "backward by design" -- whatever it's called now, it's wrong. It takes the responsibility for learning out of the students' hands where it belongs. Sometimes it takes failure to learn the biggest lessons.

Absolutely awful idea!!!

I cannot oppose it enough..
All this does is stress out the teachers who in turn put obscene amounts of pressure on the kids.

I have seen this in Florida with the Fcats. Although their pay is not based on it.
The schools get rated on the test scores so it trickles down.