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  1. #1
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    Aug 2003
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    229

    Saliva on JBR

    Over on yonder forum...

    Margoo
    Member since 11-29-02
    08-29-06, 03:56 PM (EST)

    38. "RE: spell check"
    In response to message #37

    Karr sure as heck gave a scenario for a lot of saliva to have been found on JBR's body from kisses and ... more intimate contact. (Disgusting man)
    If the killer behaved at all like JMK (did or fantasized he did), then ...

    Lin Wood told us in chat that it was from saliva.


    >>>

    So, it was saliva on JBR that yielded the DNA...from kisses or oral sex? (Disgusting, sorry to have to post it.) Or did someone spit on JBR? Apparently the saliva was found in her underwear. That's where the mixed DNA sample came from. Thoughts?
    "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." ~Benjamin Franklin

  2. #2
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    Aug 2003
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    2,832

    Saliva and 2 Sets of Footprints

    If it ever turns out that Karr was there after all, with someone else who was the actual killer, he'll probably spill the beans eventually. We can dream, can't we?

    I think they were adults, not Burke and his pals, just woman's intuition hunch.

  3. #3
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    Jun 2005
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    Atlanta, GA
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    16,021
    Quote Originally Posted by gsquared
    Over on yonder forum...

    Margoo
    Member since 11-29-02
    08-29-06, 03:56 PM (EST)

    38. "RE: spell check"
    In response to message #37

    Karr sure as heck gave a scenario for a lot of saliva to have been found on JBR's body from kisses and ... more intimate contact. (Disgusting man)
    If the killer behaved at all like JMK (did or fantasized he did), then ...

    Lin Wood told us in chat that it was from saliva.


    >>>

    So, it was saliva on JBR that yielded the DNA...from kisses or oral sex? (Disgusting, sorry to have to post it.) Or did someone spit on JBR? Apparently the saliva was found in her underwear. That's where the mixed DNA sample came from. Thoughts?
    From what I read, Karr claimed to have caused her to bleed when he was performing oral sex on her and then he sucked up the blood (his words, more or less) - he claimed there was her blood and his saliva on her undies.

  4. #4
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    Aug 2003
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    229
    Well, we know that is BS.
    "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." ~Benjamin Franklin

  5. #5
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    16,021
    Quote Originally Posted by gsquared
    Well, we know that is BS.
    Absolutely. Karr is crackers but he didn't kill JBR. This was just something I read in an explanation the D.A. wrote when she dismissed the case.

  6. #6
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    Feb 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsquared
    Well, we know that is BS.
    Amen.

  7. #7
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    May 2006
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    SE Virginia
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    284
    oh my god...that's just horrible...what is going on in this mans head?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanEyes
    oh my god...that's just horrible...what is going on in this mans head?
    It's creepy creepy creepy in there.

  9. #9
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    Feb 2006
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    Melbourne Australia
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    4,175
    Quote Originally Posted by OceanEyes
    oh my god...that's just horrible...what is going on in this mans head?
    Seriously dillusional and screwed up crap.Errhh!

  10. #10
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    Oct 2003
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    6,932
    Quote Originally Posted by OceanEyes
    oh my god...that's just horrible...what is going on in this mans head?
    And the really scary thing is, he'll be out on the streets again...probably pretty quickly. I think the charges in California are misdemeanors. Sadly, I think it's going to be a very small jump from something in his mind...to him actually doing it. He's sick and I expect he'll do something soon. God help the poor children who are anywhere near this sick man. It's too bad they can't lock him up and throw away the key.


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    3,852
    Quote Originally Posted by gsquared
    Over on yonder forum...

    Margoo
    Member since 11-29-02
    08-29-06, 03:56 PM (EST)

    38. "RE: spell check"
    In response to message #37

    Karr sure as heck gave a scenario for a lot of saliva to have been found on JBR's body from kisses and ... more intimate contact. (Disgusting man)
    If the killer behaved at all like JMK (did or fantasized he did), then ...

    Lin Wood told us in chat that it was from saliva.


    >>>

    So, it was saliva on JBR that yielded the DNA...from kisses or oral sex? (Disgusting, sorry to have to post it.) Or did someone spit on JBR? Apparently the saliva was found in her underwear. That's where the mixed DNA sample came from. Thoughts?
    I think the "foreign" dna sample (if it IS from saliva) is from Inspector #12 or whoever packed those panties in the factory sneezing/coughing/sweating.

    I do NOT believe the male dna in JBR's panties has anything to do with the murderer.

  12. #12
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    Jun 2005
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    Atlanta, GA
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    I posted this in another thread but it nears posting here as well.


    http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/28/r...rest/index.html

    If you click on the link within this story, you can read the People's Motion to Quash the Arrest Warrant which describes where Karr said the saliva came from.

  13. #13
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    Aug 2006
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    What about all the other evidence? The blue fibres that forensic experts thought came from a washcloth when the killer washed her body after the murder? Isn't it a valid theory that the killer washed the body thoroughly even though this is not included in Karr's details in the emails? If he redressed her in new panties why would his dna be on them if he had washed the body completely before putting them on? The red fluid would be a mix of water and dried blood, and would not have his dna in it necessarily.

    I would like to hear some scientific explanation of why the dna could not be washed off. And why the tiny amount of dna on the underwear has to come from the killer.

    We have heard over and over that the 3 tiny bits of dna in this case were degraded or otherwise inadequate.

    What about the other evidence? Were the palm and boot prints compared to John Karr? What about details he gave that were never talked about or were assumed never to have happened?

    He says he tied her and hung her by the wrists and her feet were bound. Were there any signs of abrasion on her ankles or feet? Was there evidence of her being hung vertically? I never saw that in any report or any forum. Did they already rule this out, or does the dna non-match mean they will never look at his detailed confession again to disprove it point by point?

    He also says he used two different implements for the strangling, the first one he took with him; the second one he left on her. I saw one theory by an expert that she had been strangled twice. And what about the dark red patch on her neck and the "stun gun marks" in several places? He said there was no stun gun. He talked of various implements like jewelry that might have caused the mark. Insane ramblings or not? Are we going to be left forever with questions because he's not going to be interviewed again ? I think if he is going to talk more about it now that he's been caught, he could clear it up. If he's been cleared because of the dna non-match, what is the next step for him? Say he did it, is he relieved now and is going to go with the innocent madman story, or is he outraged and disappointed because he wants the world to know how it happened?

    And if he can't come up with a reason for the marks and no one else can come up with a logical explanation, what do we have here? A mystery. Yet the world is just putting it aside now?

  14. #14
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    "I think the "foreign" dna sample (if it IS from saliva) is from Inspector #12 or whoever packed those panties in the factory sneezing/coughing/sweating.

    I do NOT believe the male dna in JBR's panties has anything to do with the murderer."

    I'm with you.

    "The blue fibres that forensic experts thought came from a washcloth when the killer washed her body after the murder? Isn't it a valid theory that the killer washed the body thoroughly even though this is not included in Karr's details in the emails? If he redressed her in new panties why would his dna be "on them if he had washed the body completely before putting them on? The red fluid would be a mix of water and dried blood, and would not have his dna in it necessarily."

    Right. Besides, DNA is notoriously hard to get rid of. There was none on her body, and he couldn't have wiped her down that well, as the outside of the vagina was hardly touched.

    "What about the other evidence? Were the palm and boot prints compared to John Karr?"

    aspidistra, those questions were answered four years ago. Ask the boss lady, Tricia.

    "What about details he gave that were never talked about or were assumed never to have happened?"

    Turned out to be BS.

    "He says he tied her and hung her by the wrists and her feet were bound. Were there any signs of abrasion on her ankles or feet?"

    Nope.

    "Was there evidence of her being hung vertically?"

    None that is apparent.

    "Did they already rule this out, or does the dna non-match mean they will never look at his detailed confession again to disprove it point by point?"

    That was all they were pinning hope on.

    "I saw one theory by an expert that she had been strangled twice."

    Might have been Spitz.

    "He said there was no stun gun."

    He's right!

    "He talked of various implements like jewelry that might have caused the mark."

    Same as a lot of us have said! Wolfsmargirl comes to mind.

  15. #15
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    Aug 2006
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    214

    I agree now that he could not have been there

    My previous questions were based on what I knew he had said so far.

    I listened to more of the taped confessions last night. He spends hours talking about the attack and the escape, including many details. The way he describes it, he never mentions washing the body. And there would be tons of dna all over her and her clothes. He wouldn't have had time to wash her. In his detailed scenario, he panicked when he killed her and was racing around trying to deliver the ransom note to her pillow, then heard a voice and dropped it on the stairs. He planned to go back and get the body and clean it up but instead he feared he'd be caught so he left. So he HADN'T cleaned the body yet, and never did. So there would have to be lots of his dna.

    His made up story is long and takes hours to tell. Why did he bother making it up? Because he's insane. Why is no one giving him some psychological help? This man needs drugs and counselling desperately now, and for the rest of his life, and to be watched closely at all times.

    The thing that bothers me is that he is a desperately sick individual and now that he is known to be a liar, I don't see anything in the news about him being given any help. I don't see anything about whether the other children he mentions molesting are being tracked down. He suffers from severe paranoia and delusions. He thought of Michael Tracey as his best friend. When you listen to the tapes, anyone would realize Michael Tracey was a sleazy amoral opportunist, and stop talking to him. But Karr was so desperate for a friend (or for notoriety and exposure) that even when he suspects the phone is tapped he keeps on blabbing.

    Even a homicidal maniac could have figured out that Tracey was not believable in his non-judgmental attitude toward the accounts of the murder. And constantly urging him to give more details "So John, did you escape on a car or a bicycle??" "I'm not going to tell you that." I just can't believe Karr is that stupid. His mind is working all the time, he notices every little thing Tracey does or doesn't say. He's desperate for acceptance and understanding and Tracey is his one link to the Ramseys and the world. OR: He is playing a game believing he is this Daxis character, the dark prince. Someone please give this man a diagnosis now.

    This is a psychological problem.

    Why did he say both in Thailand to the police, and in the phone calls to Tracey that he thinks he didn't leave any dna? Because he wasn't there. If we believe any parts of his story, he would have left the dna on the body. He gave no evidence of cleaning or wiping away his saliva. It's just not there in his otherwise detailed account. Sadly I have to admit he couldn't have done it. He's just not living in reality. He was so messed up by his childhood and somehow slipped through the cracks of our mental health system.

    This leaves the Ramsey case as an unsolved mystery. Did the Ramseys or another intruder do it? I don't know anymore. I hoped they had solved it but no. This individual has used up his 15 minutes of fame with his fake confessions. Let him get help now, that's all I ask and keep him away from children for the rest of his life.

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