General Discussion and Theories #3

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LLPH vs POGG

In a "free" and "democratic society" with a Constitution/Charter etc. one has not only the expectation, but the right to go uninterrupted in daily life by the "State's Agents." To interfere, and demand "papers comrade" is a violation.

A brief, casual stop by authorities while on foot to simply inquire and quickly investigate is not illegal. Neither is a traffic stop for cause, then finding burglary tools and making notes of it(208).

Any difference in the actual physical enactment of the use of 208 type cards is likely due to a difference in philosophy about words like citizen/subject, individual rights vs. societal rights, Life Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness, Peace Order and Good Government.

If a "208" is used properly it is useful especially with gangbangers, burglars, etc. yet has a HUGE potential for misuse and things like quotas.
I've filled out many but never heard the word "required" or the word "quotas" mentioned.
Very odd that TPS metrics demanded it.

It would be very interesting to know the circumstances behind and the backstory of the actual obtaining of DM's 208.
 
The carding/street checks have been a controversial issue in Toronto for some time. A similar tactic was recently used for university and college students in London, which caused quite a public outcry. LE was canvassing door to door and collecting personal information on all of the students, and recording it in the system as an "occurrence". After the huge public response, they stopped canvassing and said that the records would all be destroyed.

http://www.lfpress.com/2013/10/18/cops-doorstep-visits-with-students-under-fire

It sounds “ethically problematic” to Ryerson University policing expert Anne Marie Singh, who likened the strategy to the controversial Toronto police “carding” system, which has come under fire for creating a database of people stopped by police but not suspected of any crime.

“It’s unethical to use your authority as police to gather information and it’s harmful because it creates an element of distrust between police and community members,” Singh said. “Why do the police need the information? There is no substantive reason.”
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'I had been "carded" (in a different city) and I actually was glad at the time.

Police had been trying to cut down on prostitution and "carded" every vehicle and driver cruising the red light district .... they were after the Johns ... and even went so far as to publicize some pictures of the cars and license plates

In my case I was working night shift and passed thru the area every evening on my way home from work so they "carded me" as being legitimate and kept me off their "John list" ... and I appreciated it.

As a side note this whole operation became scandalous and was subsequently found to be illegal and the courts ordered police to stop the practice ..... because you guessed it .... some of the men cruising for hookers turned out to be lawyers and even one judge was caught .
 
ABro said:
My understanding is the 208 contact card was given before Tim Bosma disappeared. Weeks, months, perhaps years earlier.

Based on that contact card, they were able to identify and locate Dellen Millard.
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:welcome6::gthanks: ABro! Interesting and yes that does make sense. I never even considered that possibility. MOO
 
Way to go SB! I get the impression SB is a very strong, independent, strong and loving woman. I see her going places where she never dreamt of going before until a couple of evil people ended her husbands life. Sometimes horrible things happen in life which lead us down paths we would have never considered and those paths lead to greater things because of a tragedy. I see SB is making wonderful things happen because of the horrific hand she was dealt due to no fault of her own or Tim's. Some people just have it in them to take something bad and turn it into greatness. SB is doing just that. Bless your heart Sharlene. :loveyou: JMHO.

25 years for Halton Crimestoppers
In Burlington Thursday night Halton Crimestoppers celebrated 25 years in the community. And Sharlene Bosma was among the guest speakers.

http://www.chch.com/25-years-burlington-crimestoppers/

“We had no idea how many calls there were. At one point the police email service was overloaded and Crime Stoppers was able to fill the gap.”

http://burlingtongazette.ca/things-...id-sharlene-bosma-speaking-to-crome-stoppers/

Tim’s Tribute provides assistance to homicide victims

http://www.hamiltonnews.com/community/ancaster/tims-tribute-provides-assistance-to-homicide-victims/
 
Juballee said:
Between these links and looking back on the original MS thread recently, I can understand why people seem reluctant to address why they might think DM is more likely to be the actual murderer out of the two suspects in custody at this time. I would still be really interested to find out who the 3rd and possibly 4th suspects might be; to see if they are more the gangster with a previous record type or are more the prep-school, clean record type. Perhaps that would give us more insight.
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Juballee-you do bring up a good aspect of the case. The potential of a 3rd and 4th suspect. IMO, after the arrest of MS, the concern of a 3rd suspect seems to have dissipated and the 4th dropped completely. This happened between Kinsella's press release on May 23 addressing MS's arrest on the 22nd and June 6th when Kavanagh spoke to the media.

In May, 2013 CTV reported on MS's arrest- "Upon announcing Smich’s arrest, Kinsella said a third suspect is also being sought in the homicide investigation."

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/second...h-to-plead-not-guilty-1.1293163#ixzz2mHnXjiK6

Also in the same article : "However, Kinsella said that police are confident there’s no continued threat to the public." That could lead a reader to believe that LE felt that MS was a threat?? Interesting considering that MS had only had petty charges against him and no history of gang involvement,etc. IMO, it could also mean that LE somehow thought they had apprehended "all" suspects, thus any fear the public was experiencing could be put to rest. That could have happened if MS told them that there was only him and DM, but LE wasn't buying it completely, thinking how could 2 men physically carry this out?

Then 2 weeks later, in a June 6/13 article "Det.-Sgt. Matt Kavanagh, of the Hamilton police homicide squad, told the Star he is not sure whether there are three suspects "

"Kavanagh now says police are not sure whether Smich, who is said to have been in the back seat of the truck while Millard was driving, exited that vehicle after leaving Bosma’s home and got into the driver’s seat of the Yukon."

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...rd_suspect_exists_lead_investigator_says.html

IMO, these 2 articles speak volumes and perhaps I'm reading between the lines, but it seems like LE alludes to the fact they have everyone, and then confirms it 2 weeks later by saying how it all could have happened. The question is, with a video where they could hardly make out the vehicle, they seemed to have come into a lot of info between the time MS was arrested on the 22nd and June 6th. JMHO, but it does seem like LE got some pretty legit info about exactly who was there. Perhaps MS has been cooperating all along and that's why there's no longer any reference to a 3rd person? MOO

Interesting as well, in this article when asked about the "no contact list": " Kavanagh would not distinguish between whether they are potential witnesses or suspects. “They could be both,” he said."
 
MsSherlock said:
Juballee-you do bring up a good aspect of the case. The potential of a 3rd and 4th suspect. IMO, after the arrest of MS, the concern of a 3rd suspect seems to have dissipated and the 4th dropped completely. This happened between Kinsella's press release on May 23 addressing MS's arrest on the 22nd and June 6th when Kavanagh spoke to the media.

In May, 2013 CTV reported on MS's arrest- "Upon announcing Smich’s arrest, Kinsella said a third suspect is also being sought in the homicide investigation."

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/second...h-to-plead-not-guilty-1.1293163#ixzz2mHnXjiK6

Also in the same article : "However, Kinsella said that police are confident there’s no continued threat to the public." That could lead a reader to believe that LE felt that MS was a threat?? Interesting considering that MS had only had petty charges against him and no history of gang involvement,etc. IMO, it could also mean that LE somehow thought they had apprehended "all" suspects, thus any fear the public was experiencing could be put to rest. That could have happened if MS told them that there was only him and DM, but LE wasn't buying it completely, thinking how could 2 men physically carry this out?

Then 2 weeks later, in a June 6/13 article "Det.-Sgt. Matt Kavanagh, of the Hamilton police homicide squad, told the Star he is not sure whether there are three suspects "

"Kavanagh now says police are not sure whether Smich, who is said to have been in the back seat of the truck while Millard was driving, exited that vehicle after leaving Bosma’s home and got into the driver’s seat of the Yukon."

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...rd_suspect_exists_lead_investigator_says.html

IMO, these 2 articles speak volumes and perhaps I'm reading between the lines, but it seems like LE alludes to the fact they have everyone, and then confirms it 2 weeks later by saying how it all could have happened. The question is, with a video where they could hardly make out the vehicle, they seemed to have come into a lot of info between the time MS was arrested on the 22nd and June 6th. JMHO, but it does seem like LE got some pretty legit info about exactly who was there. Perhaps MS has been cooperating all along and that's why there's no longer any reference to a 3rd person? MOO

Interesting as well, in this article when asked about the "no contact list": " Kavanagh would not distinguish between whether they are potential witnesses or suspects. “They could be both,” he said."
Click to expand...

When reading between the lines, it sometimes helps to read all the lines. In the complete context of his comments, I don't see where Kavanagh has confirmed at all that they "have everyone" or that they know exactly who all was there. What Kavanagh really said in June was:

“As an investigator, you always talk about tunnel vision and I think it’d be tunnel vision for me to say that I definitely believe there’s a third person or to say there wasn’t,” Staff Sergeant Matt Kavanagh said Wednesday. “It’s possible that there’s only two involved and it’s also possible that there may have been a third. And so we’re looking into that and we still have some doors to shut, some avenues of investigation.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/police-question-existence-of-third-suspect-in-bosma-killing/article12370401/

However, Staff. Sgt. Kavanagh said investigators do not know who was driving the SUV and are probing the possibility that it was Mr. Smich.

“In reality, it could have been Smich,” said Staff Sgt. Kavanagh. “Smich could have got out of the Bosma truck and into the Yukon. So that’s why I say I’m not sure.”

The other possibility under investigation is that a third person dropped the pair off at Mr. Bosma’s home and then followed them as they drove west to Brantford and beyond.
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It seems very logical to me that the no contact list would include both suspects and witnesses, regardless of anything.

JMO
 
Alethea Dice said:
When reading between the lines, it sometimes helps to read all the lines. In the complete context of his comments, I don't see where Kavanagh has confirmed at all that they "have everyone" or that they know exactly who all was there. What Kavanagh really said in June was:

“As an investigator, you always talk about tunnel vision and I think it’d be tunnel vision for me to say that I definitely believe there’s a third person or to say there wasn’t,” Staff Sergeant Matt Kavanagh said Wednesday. “It’s possible that there’s only two involved and it’s also possible that there may have been a third. And so we’re looking into that and we still have some doors to shut, some avenues of investigation.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/police-question-existence-of-third-suspect-in-bosma-killing/article12370401/




It seems very logical to me that the no contact list would include both suspects and witnesses, regardless of anything.

JMO
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Thanks Alethia! I always value different perspectives-especially on MSM reports. I was looking at it as though the arrest of MS led LE to look at things differently due to the fact that prior to the second arrest they had a 3 or 4 man theory.

IMO, due to the fact that TB lived out in the country, and DM & MS had to get there by vehicle, the "tunnel vision" or belief that they were dropped off wouldn't be hard to develop. 2 cars, 2 guys at the door, therefore there was at least a 3rd person. My point was that immediately after arresting MS, LE claimed there was no longer a risk to the public.

I'm perplexed how they could have said this if they were still looking for at least # 3?? Perhaps # 3 was the real mastermind and the other two just puppets? But then, just a couple weeks after they arrested MS, they were saying that they were questioning their previous beliefs and were open to the fact that MS may have jumped out of the Ram and in behind the wheel of the vehicle they arrived in and IIRC they haven't mentioned #3 again.

IMO, when I look at LE's change of tune around there being more than MS or DM and the elimination of any threat to public safety after MS's arrest, it still makes me think that people close to the accused, or the accused themselves had given LE info that took a couple of weeks to confirm. MOO
 
MsSherlock said:
Thanks Alethia! I always value different perspectives-especially on MSM reports. I was looking at it as though the arrest of MS led LE to look at things differently due to the fact that prior to the second arrest they had a 3 or 4 man theory.

IMO, due to the fact that TB lived out in the country, and DM & MS had to get there by vehicle, the "tunnel vision" or belief that they were dropped off wouldn't be hard to develop. 2 cars, 2 guys at the door, therefore there was at least a 3rd person. My point was that immediately after arresting MS, LE claimed there was no longer a risk to the public.

I'm perplexed how they could have said this if they were still looking for at least # 3?? Perhaps # 3 was the real mastermind and the other two just puppets? But then, just a couple weeks after they arrested MS, they were saying that they were questioning their previous beliefs and were open to the fact that MS may have jumped out of the Ram and in behind the wheel of the vehicle they arrived in and IIRC they haven't mentioned #3 again.

IMO, when I look at LE's change of tune around there being more than MS or DM and the elimination of any threat to public safety after MS's arrest, it still makes me think that people close to the accused, or the accused themselves had given LE info that took a couple of weeks to confirm. MOO
Click to expand...

My first thought when they said the danger to the public was over, was that they assumed or knew that MS was the dangerous one. Of course, my feeling was bolstered by the manpower used for his arrest and the extra security in the courtroom for his first appearance. Then I thought maybe they already knew who #3 was and that is who was talking, and he either had a deal of some kind and/or LE just wasn't going to announce who it was or what his charges were or even that they had him. Now I really have no idea whether that could be the case or if they really just have no clue about the 3rd person and, since they're not talking about anything anymore, it's never been mentioned since. I just have a really hard time believing that there may not be a #3 at all. That scenario makes no sense to me.

JMO
 
Alethea Dice said:
My first thought when they said the danger to the public was over, was that they assumed or knew that MS was the dangerous one. Of course, my feeling was bolstered by the manpower used for his arrest and the extra security in the courtroom for his first appearance. Then I thought maybe they already knew who #3 was and that is who was talking, and he either had a deal of some kind and/or LE just wasn't going to announce who it was or what his charges were or even that they had him. Now I really have no idea whether that could be the case or if they really just have no clue about the 3rd person and, since they're not talking about anything anymore, it's never been mentioned since. I just have a really hard time believing that there may not be a #3 at all. That scenario makes no sense to me.

JMO
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Well IMO I would think if LE believed there was a third suspect but don't know who the third suspect was, they would still make public announcements they are still seeking third or fourth suspect. They intentionally would not want to risk the public's safety with a potentially dangerous person/murderer on the loose and I do know LE rely on the public for assistance when solving crimes. If they know who the third or other suspects are but cannot find them, again I believe LE would be asking the public for their assistance. Personally my opinion is is that there were only two suspects involved and they are in jail. If there was that third suspect, that person knew nothing awful was going to happen and wasn't around when it did happen. If there was that third suspect, they have gone to LE to provide information. It is now just seven months shy from the night TB was murdered and I imagine LE have most if not all the evidence related to this case and have been able to determine how the crimes played out based on that evidence, witnesses, tips and possibly one or both the accused themselves. JMO.
 
It's been 7 months since Tim was taken from his home, loved ones and murdered. To me it seems so long ago and I would imagine it seems like eternity to his family and those who knew him and are seeking some justice in this horrific case. It is so hard to define justice as I believe there is no true justice for murdered victims. We have to rely on our fellow man in a court of law hoping legal justice is served. I have faith that the truth will come out through solid evidence and those responsible for Tim's demise will be held accountable in the most severe form our justice system can provide.

RIP Tim knowing justice will be served and your loved ones hopefully will have some comfort in knowing the criminal(s) will pay by losing their freedom by spending many difficult years in prison. Some mistakes can be forgiven but this was not a mistake. It was cold, calculated, evil and selfish and for that they deserve nothing better a life of misery behind bars. All JMHO.
 
...Swede I must comment BACK....you did an excellent job on your post...wow 7 long mths..and I must say I AGREE...cold calculating, evil, selfish..... Mr. Tom Bosma demise..and such an Indignity done to his body...I pray justice is seeked in court with all the evidence...and I must send my heart felt sympathy to Sharlene ....this should have never happened ..JMHO!....and I feel our courts take way to long to seek the justice that is needed too....again IMO...robynhood.
 
hopingforjustice said:
Just saw this on FB Murder of Tim Bosma Discussion Page

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2013/12/dellen-millards-engagement-photos.html
Click to expand...

Thank you for posting this Hoping. Interesting. I had heard this information before but didn't know if it was true. Now I believe it is true as AB's write up is also what I had heard. I think it's very telling something very troubling/dramatic happened around the time, either just before the engagement shots or shortly thereafter. I would guess likely just after. Why else would someone supposedly so in love enough to say yes to marrying someone, living with someone, one day change their mind just a couple/few weeks later or overnight....

It (the truth) will all eventually come out in the end I bet. Way to go AB. :seeya: JMO that's all.
 
DM and MS back in court via video link on Tuesday, December 11, 2013 at 2pm. Wonder what we will find out. I assume much of nothing. JMO.
 
I find it interesting that just as WM tried to get DM set up with the MRO business .... it appears MB was also hoping DM would get married.

My sympathy for the parents increases.
 
Wow! I'm wondering if AB has the rights or permission from the fiancée to publish her likeness for profit?
 
It's not the fiancee who decides on publishing those images. It's the photographer who owns them and can sell them.

You'll notice that I didn't publish the fullsize images but just thumbnails. This is in keeping with legal precedent: http://www.out-law.com/page-8065

Anyone who wants to get a good look has to go to the photographer's website and he can decide whether or not to sell the photos and make money.

If I had a full legal team behind me, I could argue that it was ok to publish the pictures based on their news value but that would be risky. Still, it's a risk news organizations take regularly. All the DM pictures we see regularly actually belong to the photographers that took them. In theory those copyright owners could ask for payment and damages, but they probably have bigger worries at the moment.
 
ABro said:
The same legal principles apply in Canada. That is why we can see thumbnails on Google image search.

A couple has no expectation of privacy if they sign the wrong contract with a photographer. I know several couples who were surprised to find, after the fact, that the photographer owned their wedding photos and all they had was the right to a set of photos. Why do you suppose Smich's sister's photos are still on the web? These engagement photos would not be there if the photographer didn't have the rights to post them. So, yes, everybody should definitely pay close attention to the contract when they hire a photographer.
Click to expand...

Thanks AB, but it is not a case of signing a wrong contract.. It is standard photography contract. You are right..this photographer had every right to post them.

Every "producer" owns the rights to all photographs for events they produce. Whether it be a photo studio session or a sporting event they put on. Only those producers have the right to assign who has commercial rights to the "sale" of those photos, whether it be themselves or an outside source. I speak from experience. I photograph a sporting event and have the commercial rights to everything from one producer. Anyone can photograph and use photos from our events for their personal use, but No one else may receive compensation from any photos from our events.

There is not a photographer out there that would not put a clause in their contracts protecting their rights to their photos in the chance that they got that one great shot that would make them!

I would assume that being as your posted this, that this fiance is not on the "do not contact" list? You would know more on this than most of us.

Thank you
 
Keep up the good work ABro ... your articles on this case are some of the best out there

I hope it pays off for you .

We have a shortage of good investigative journalists in this country

Thank you
 
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