CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange Co, 27 Jul 2009 - #19

I realize I am the minority who ponders whether the confrontation which led to Bob's death was impulsive. I think that there was a plan to dissuade Bob from his "honey-do" list for sure. I also think the aftermath was a distinct effort to clean up and move on to acquiring the money that everyone wanted to begin with.

I wonder if his marriage was the action that precipitated his death? I wonder if it wouldn't have come anyway at some point when it was determined that they were not direct beneficiaries of their mother's trust? That Bob was and that they were entitled to the jewelry bequests and the money that he paid them to get them to stay away from him? Things that make you go hmmm.

Anybody else a fan of Chino Hills being a place to search? We have quite a few SAR groups associated with this site. We could reach out to a group here in California and see what their thoughts are.

believe09,
While I am not map-savvy nor SAR informed beyond what has been posted here, I'm in favor or any and all actions in the direction of locating Bob.

I also concur that there was no way on earth his family was going to accept anything short of getting their hands on his money as quickly as possible. They certainly were not going to stand for a new person coming in and receiving any part of it, much less most of it.

If we can receive any SAR help, I say go for it, please.

believe09 said:

I realize I am the minority who ponders whether the confrontation which led to Bob's death was impulsive. I think that there was a plan to dissuade Bob from his "honey-do" list for sure. I also think the aftermath was a distinct effort to clean up and move on to acquiring the money that everyone wanted to begin with.

I wonder if his marriage was the action that precipitated his death? I wonder if it wouldn't have come anyway at some point when it was determined that they were not direct beneficiaries of their mother's trust? That Bob was and that they were entitled to the jewelry bequests and the money that he paid them to get them to stay away from him? Things that make you go hmmm.

Anybody else a fan of Chino Hills being a place to search? We have quite a few SAR groups associated with this site. We could reach out to a group here in California and see what their thoughts are.

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BBM. I don't think there was a single event which precipitated Bob's death. IMO, it began with the daughters learning about the gifts Bob was providing the hair dresser. The marriage just sealed the deal, imo, because it was then definate Bob's wife would share in his wealth.

I also think it may have been more than one person who removed Bob from the home. GS was blowing through money with no explanation according to his deposition. That raises red flags for me.

I think the only hope for searches is if Mrs Harrod and/or police make a plea for help. Daughters won't do it and I don't think SAR groups will go out for unrelated strangers who ask, myself.

If Mrs Harrod were to make a public appeal for SAR groups to help find her husband, I think she would get an immediate response - and lots of people would be willing to share that plea, far and wide.

Mrs Harrod probably wouldn't have to make a public appeal. She can and may have already had some success getting a SAR group interested. The good news, I hope, is that if there is an area to target, it should be possible to grid it and determine which spots are most likely based upon experience and topography. Public access areas require no specific permission and most owners of private areas are only too glad to help.

Any google earth enthusiasts? Oriah is wonderful at tutoring SAR grids and likely areas where evidence may be found.

Remember, many loved ones and families of the missing prefer to deal with LE, SAR, attorneys, etc privately (there are as many individual reasons for this as there are families and friends of the missing. ) Even though FH may have taken a public approach in the past in regards to certain aspects of the case, does not mean she (or anyone else for that matter) has not chosen a different approach regarding SAR.

Just a little something to consider from a SAR approach: what do ya'll suppose SAR does when confronted with requests from two opposing 'sides' of a case, and both are family? And LE isn't picking sides publically yet?
Not saying this is the situation in Mr. Harrod's case. But it's something to think about, because it DOES happen. Often, actually.

Yes, this is true.

Oriah said:

Remember, many loved ones and families of the missing prefer to deal with LE, SAR, attorneys, etc privately (there are as many individual reasons for this as there are families and friends of the missing. ) Even though FH may have taken a public approach in the past in regards to certain aspects of the case, does not mean she (or anyone else for that matter) has not chosen a different approach regarding SAR.

Just a little something to consider from a SAR approach: what do ya'll suppose SAR does when confronted with requests from two opposing 'sides' of a case, and both are family? And LE isn't picking sides publically yet?
Not saying this is the situation in Mr. Harrod's case. But it's something to think about, because it DOES happen. Often, actually.

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Actually I would think that is almost an ideal situation. If a SAR group is affiliated with LE, it would certainly be fascinating to compare and contrast the two perspectives.

I feel for LE in the early days of this case....Bob had dementia, had run away from family conflict, had run away with BL, was on a beach in Mexico or hiding away in MO. IIRC. (insert eye roll here.)

And none of that was the case. IMO, there was no "affirmative" phone conversation that took place between 11 and noon the day he was killed either. Seeing as how LE's statement regarding LKC is around 10AM, it seems likely they aren't convinced of the hardware store conversation PB reported either. Just saying.

The photos published by LE of the upstairs bathroom has always signified, in my opinion, that any injury and/or scuffle involving Bob occurred in that location. I want to believe there was an accident that ended tragically. However, it also stands out that a bathroom is the easiest location in a house to clean up a crime scene. An elderly person could drown, or be knocked out, in the tub and little forensic evidence would be found. That leads me to my next thought regarding the transfer of Bob from upstairs to downstairs. Even a slender body is difficult to carry down stairs when unconscious or deceased. The easiest method of transfer would be to place Bob in the electric lift chair. I'm certain LE carefully examined the upstairs bathroom, but I wonder whether they examined the lift for blood or body fluids. We know that dogs were not used during the initial investigation, but I wonder if cadaver dogs were brought in once Fontelle moved in to the house. As far as removing Bob from the house it seems unlikely he left via the front door. The sliding door is a good possibility, but I also keep remembering that when LE met GS at the house, on the night of the disappearance, that the door from the kitchen to the garage was blocked and LE could not access that area. I'm not convinced that Bob wasn't moved directly to the garage and then through the side garage door to a vehicle. That would be the route that would guarantee the least visibility during the transfer. I keep hoping that the declaration of death and pending distribution of the estate will bring some charges against the guilty. jmoo

Oriah said:

Remember, many loved ones and families of the missing prefer to deal with LE, SAR, attorneys, etc privately (there are as many individual reasons for this as there are families and friends of the missing. ) Even though FH may have taken a public approach in the past in regards to certain aspects of the case, does not mean she (or anyone else for that matter) has not chosen a different approach regarding SAR.

Just a little something to consider from a SAR approach: what do ya'll suppose SAR does when confronted with requests from two opposing 'sides' of a case, and both are family? And LE isn't picking sides publically yet?
Not saying this is the situation in Mr. Harrod's case. But it's something to think about, because it DOES happen. Often, actually.

Click to expand...

Something like that happened in a case I followed, where at one stage there was conflict between three camps - one of which included the (just convicted) murderer who wasn't charged at the time, the other investigators, the other knowledgeable locals and searchers supporting the family of the missing victim.

A proposed search of one particular area by the locals had to be abandoned because of arguments, obstructions and confusion that occured. Sadly, that's where the victim's body was eventually discovered by a landowner, when much evidence had been lost.

It's horribly difficult for SAR when there are conflicting interests, and an absolute minefield if a suspect has, unknown, managed to instigate him/herself into a group. I suspect and hope sometimes, SAR just has to rely on their instincts culled from experience, when making a choice.

It is always much, much better if SAR can work in co-operation with police. That doesn't always happen though. Often, it seems to be a case of law enforcement simply not having a local tradition of openess or disliking interference. Or sometimes, they don't want to panic or alert a suspect, with searches. Rarely, it's because LE thinks there is a suspect involved in organizing searches.

I don't think any of that applies to Bob's case though. LE in Orange County and neighboring counties have some excellent SAR teams. So all I can think is that they haven't been asked to search - or they have, and they're just not telling.

Which is your guess, Z? Meaning is LE holding cards or has there been no searching?

zwiebel said:

It is always much, much better if SAR can work in co-operation with police. That doesn't always happen though. Often, it seems to be a case of law enforcement simply not having a local tradition of openess or disliking interference. Or sometimes, they don't want to panic or alert a suspect, with searches. Rarely, it's because LE thinks there is a suspect involved in organizing searches.

I don't think any of that applies to Bob's case though. LE in Orange County and neighboring counties have some excellent SAR teams. So all I can think is that they haven't been asked to search - or they have, and they're just not telling.

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Actually, it can be much more complicated than even that.

I do think there have been some relevant searches - besides the checks of the immediate neighborhood, which I don't think were ever likely to turn up Bob. I worry that police were never able to get warrants to look in places where there may have been evidence of what happened to him, and where he might have been taken though.

I find it frustrating sometimes when old, skeletal remains are found - that prove nothing except the person is dead - and prosecutors immediately charge someone. Because it turns out, they had evidence all along and were just waiting for a body to be found. Seems these cases may be a fear of bringing a no body prosecution?

I don't think that applies in Bob's case though. If there was enough evidence, OC prosecutors would have charged someone by now, even without Bob's body.

I like the way some prosecutors can gather together a whole bunch of evidence of half-truths and misleading or obstructive stuff, that by themselves are not illegal or even very meaningful.

Then present it in court to help paint a compelling picture of a guilty person with something very big to hide.

Exactly. That's one of the most useful aspects of continued searching, even years or decades after the fact. While it's not practiced often enough (specialized resources and/or access to those resources are typically prohibitively expensive or difficult to come by) it IS practiced; and personally, I believe Mr. Harrod's case is the sort where it has the potential to impact 'painting the picture', as you say, Zwie.

For example- LE and SAR knows what areas have been searched, and using what resources- as well as what resources may remain for further searching.
They know where the MP is likely NOT (often, even if just by a few hundred feet.) They also know who has requested SAR services- either LE based or private- and who has NOT. They know who has willingly accepted searches of private property, and who has not. Now, refusing a search of private property does not make one guilty of anything, except protecting personal property and privacy- and without a SW, everyone is well within their rights to do so.
But the reality remains in the eyes of those investigating that a right to refusal has been employed. Which means that an area cannot be considered cleared.
So the parts begin to be painted.

LE and SAR also know what other, more specialized SAR methods may become available as time goes on- not a whole lot different than LE dragging a pond, 5-10-20 years after a MP was last seen nearby, or a tip or other source of evidence points toward a possible location. Kwim?

In Mr. Harrod's case, I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps an investigation into whom actually 'owns' private property might need to be further explored. For example, a bank owner property is bank-owned- not owned by the individual. Most of us have mortgages- thus, a bank or other entity technically owns the property in our name.

Wouldn't be the first time a SW is gained for private property, in that fashion.

Several of these homes are owned by the Bank of Bob either literally or in spirit.

I am sure that there is paperwork in the public domain that will show who actually owns what.

I like it. I like the idea of presenting a Bank with some kind of search warrant and obtaining access to a property.

believe09 said:

Several of these homes are owned by the Bank of Bob either literally or in spirit.

I am sure that there is paperwork in the public domain that will show who actually owns what.

I like it. I like the idea of presenting a Bank with some kind of search warrant and obtaining access to a property.

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I like that idea too, but LE still needs much more than a hunch in order to convince a judge to issue a SW. The way the entire family hunkered down and clammed up regarding the disappearance has created a significant problem for LE. My gut instinct tells me that forgiveness of the grandson's debt was a way to buy his silence. :moo: