Are the Ramseys involved or not?

gaia said:

Hi all. As of the last coupla days, I'm back on this case.

I'm particularly interested in BrotherMoon and his theories. I'm a Jungian enthusiast as well as a great believer in the power of myth. To me, your thoughts, BrotherMoon, seem very well-thought out and provide new fodder. Thanks, and (as I'm sure you know) don't let others get to you.

Carry on.....

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Ahhhhhhhh! At long last.

Nice hat. The rise of the repressed feminine comes in odd forms. It's ironic that Patsy did her thing in Boulder.

Yup, when I woke up a few years ago, I remember reading all about Boulder. Sounded like my kind of place - liberal, educated, artsy, beautiful setting. I'm a potter and this place charmed me. Then, of course, I saw the place through the Ramsey case and it didn't quite measure up to a perfect place at all. And the way Patsy took the place by storm seemed like a military campaign. Of course there was no way Patsy was going to surrender to her feminine voice and experience a new birth at 40. Her struggle seemed to be in resisting anything natural or wise. I've met a bunch of women very similar in actions and deeds and I've often felt very wary.

gaia said:

Of course there was no way Patsy was going to surrender to her feminine voice and experience a new birth at 40.

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Bingo.

No greater gift than blood. (One's own.)

We all travel from one stage of life to another. Some of us don't accept the natural changes and attempt to regress. Example: A woman gets one plastic surgery after another in an effort to reverse time. She constantly exercises, buys and wears clothes intended to be worn by teenagers, appears coquettish to men of all ages, tries to attract younger men, etc. This is the ego trying to stay in control of a situation not possible to control. Result: Resistance to change and sometimes regression into an earlier stage of life. To me, Patsy did just that. Turning 40 was an important part of this. Her illness probably made her feel even older and as if the life she had loved in the past was fading away. She was no longer the beauty queen, but her daughter - her own blood - could be. This must have been a horrible time for her. She was probably imploding...

I really think the question about this case is, what did PR mean when she told her sister "We didn't mean for THIS to happen"?

Nothing to do with Jung. It sounds like a confession that they made a mistake in choice of friends and who to let JonBenet be with. And that could be why John was saying "I'm so sorry" on the walk with friends.

Professional psychologists wouldn't presume to analyze the R's long-distance w/out even knowing them, neither should we, unless we want to be known as some of those fools that rush in? No offense. You're doing some good posts, Gaia, but don't forget that fact that Patsy told her sister which she thought was private, didn't know it would be reported.

I think what Patsy said to her sister may be the biggest clue in the case. What in the world do you suppose she meant?

And btw, as I explained in another thread, when an arrogant hater, bullying his or her way around, claims to know more than FBI or anyone that a woman at a distance is a killer and has such and such a psychological makeup, we're duty and honor bound to defend the accused person as we'd want to be defended, if we'd suffered such a blow.

Some feel the R's act like they don't care much. Well, we don't really know if stoicism is their way of coping. I'm not saying people are right or wrong. We just tend to judge each other harshly if we're ourselves harsh. It's not civilized. Ethics is "Do unto others only as you'd want done to you in their place," empathy. Putting yourself in the other person's shoes. Do people who pretend to be authorities about psychology have any credibility when they can't muster up any empathy for others and when they don't know professionals wouldn't attempt to diagnose w/out even knowing a patient. Nothing personal of course, just don't get the picture backwards. Those of us defending Patsy from any vicious accusers, (showing-off?) aren't the aggressors. She's innocent until a court of law including professionals prove her guilty and if that right were taken away from her, it'd be taken from us too. What if such a bizarre thing should happen to one of us, and we were framed just by being there?

Repeating the question, what did Patsy mean by "We didn't mean for THIS to happen? Anyone? I think it's probably in Schiller's book. If not, ST's?

This is a forum of opinion. I'm giving mine. I don't feel dispassionate toward Patsy. I'm just saying what I think. I know of two psychologists (friends) who've expressed their opinions about Patsy, John, Burke, Scott Peterson, Jackie Peterson, Lee Peterson, Janey Peterson..... These psychologists wouldn't post on a website such as this and outright proclaim who and what they are. Some may. Doubt it. I'm not out to get Patsy. I'm trying to use the information I have gleaned over years of reading to try to pose an understanding of Patsy and her behavior. I can't make Patsy be guilty or innocent. Just thinking out loud. Your posts are the result of thinking and historical knowledge and you're welcome to post it.

Your wondering what Patsy meant by her rather cryptic message to person close to her could have meant just about ANYTHING. I don't know the direct context. Do you? If so, I'd love to know the conversation.

Keep posting. Different brains produce different points of view. That's healthy.

Just came back to edit one of my posts if I can find it, to put a question mark after the expression "showing off".

Yep, we're getting some new ideas from each other, and I didn't mean to imply you were out to get Patsy. I didn't think that at all.

Psychiatrists pals may say things off-the-record, yep, which they would not say publicly so it's not official, because they haven't studied the subjects in person.

Bro. Moon, hang in there. We're not out to get you or anyone. I just would not want to be accused of murder after losing one of my children and Patsy may have made some mistake in choice of who she'd let JonBenet be with, but it wasn't intentional. I'm not as trusting as she was, but we need to sympathize anyway about what happened to those people.

About that quote, I wonder if Patsy meant they (Patsy and John) had worked and created this great life with lots of money, toys, status, friends, etc. and the whole thing came tumbling down because of JB's death and everything surrounding it. Just musing.....

Yes, that's one possible explanation.

And Angel, I was positive it was PR's sister Pam she said that to, but can't reach my book down from a shelf to check it, sore arm. Maybe some laziness about getting out a step.

Anyway, as I just replied in another thread, Anyone Else Alarmed, I think, there were some very odd behaviors by most of the Rs' circle of friends.

FW's behavior in Atlanta wasn't the first time it seemed odd. There was the taking JonBenet to the bathroom, and no doubt lots of other incidents.

I've asked "What could be the tie that binds" this circle of friends? Did Susan Stine just simply not want the party interrupted by police, or could there have been another reason for turning them away at the door, such as maybe letting an abused child get the idea law enforcement would be on their side?

I certainly think JB was abused. Whether the abuse extended beyond the immediate family is an interesting question. Back when this case was still young (and we were too) I kept thinking if the circle of friends was involved we'd get some leakage of clues and info. Yes, there was that woman in Ca. who claimed to have been victim of a group which may have included Fleet. I remember reading her stuff online years ago.

What are your arguments to support that theory? I'd love to know, as my "little gray cells" just ain't what they used to be. Can't remember much anymore. Waltz me through it, if you will.

I guess my theory was that she just got so attacked as a whistleblower that she had to go into hiding. That's about all I can remember at the moment about that. Maybe someone else knows more.

The two California guys visiting the Whites were, I think, connected to a Kalli (sp?) group, which I believe may be a goddess in India, which may have had some strange practices. One was married to Priscilla White's neice, the other one just someone's boyfriend. That's on pg 43 of Schiller, paperback. I did get the book down. And someone was right who said the Pam wasn't Patsy's sister, but Pam Griffith and her daughter Kristine.

She said, later, that Patsy had said something LIKE "We didn't mean for this to happen", after saying, "You know, THEY killed my baby." pg 53.

Sometimes it seems like she knows something about who did it, maybe even more than two people, and that she may not know exactly which one, unless it was the obviously-disturbed phone caller she suspected during the Grand Jury, according to The Patricia Letters or Papers, not a gov't agency experiment, right? Some nut's idea of training up a child to be humble? Just beating the bushes, not saying I believe that.

Oh good grief not Krebs!

Read her deposition and you'll see she is mentally ill!

Can't believe some posters actually took up Krebs crap seriously....I think they all went into hiding when the truth came out! hehehehe

Maybe you could post some of it in case I'm not the only one who did not ever see it? Guess you know, it's against rules of debate to claim a thing never happened just because we personally never saw it happen.

(Or, I guess implied, to assume she's wrong just because she's a woman and he's wealthy and powerful? Ever read a womens' magazine article about typical slanders of female whistleblowers? Have we come a long way baby or back to the stone age? )

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3971


There you go. Yep we've come a long way...what is this she female and he's male and therefore she is right?

Right is right, reguardless of gender...Nancy LIES!....a lot.

D. Have been (coughing) involved in these types of things for many…many years

A. Ok, lets talk about the types of things John Ramsey was involved in, cause obviously that’s the part that interest me the most ok. Tell me what John Ramsey was involved in as far as you

D. As far as me

A. As far as you

D. He was involved in umm abusing me

A. Ok, abusing you in what ways

D. Having umm sexual intercourse with me

A. Ok

D. Having umm doing umm you know sodomy, oral copulation putting me in positions where I was in bondage

A. Ok

D. Where I would be umm sometimes chained sometimes umm tied sometimes umm like tortured with little tiny sticks that they would put on fire…and insert…insert inside of me

A. Ok

D. Just little tiny sticks umm they used different Instruments including John Ramsey

A. Ok, and again and..and

D. Broom sticks, little broom stick handles off little whisk broom

A. Ok, and again lets focus on just John Ramsey for right now ok





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D. Well I’m saying he did all of those things

A. Ok, when was the last time you had any…any contact…any contact with John Ramsey

D. That I remember was when we were living in Los Osos

A. Ok, and when was that

D. It would have been when I was in the 7th grade, and I had missed so many days of school

A. Ok, that was the last day you had contact with John Ramsey

D. Mm-huh

A. Ok, when was the very first time that you remember having contact with John Ramsey

D. It would have been at about the same age as umm with Mackey and Fleet, and Fleet Jr and so it would have been around the age of 1 ½, 4 years old

A. Ok, so between 3 ½ up to 7th grade, umm again lets kind of put together a time line based on that…those…those years. Lets start on the 7th grade time line and we’ll go way back ok and again lets…lets narrow our focus to just John Ramsey right now ok umm last encounter with John Ramsey that…that seems to kind of be the easiest is figuring out the last time that you had an encounter with him. Umm lets talk about that

D. The last time that I remember

A. The last time that you remember

D. Yea, umm (coughing) I know that we were living in an apartment building in Los Osos

A. Ok, with whom

D. I was living there with my mom

A. Ok




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D. And my sister and brother

A. Ok

D. And my mom and I shared a bedroom and my sister and brother shared a room

A. Ok

D. So during this time they were lots of men who would come over and they would have sexual intercourse with my mom and sometimes they would or would not with me in the same bed

A. Ok

D. And what I remember about John Ramsey being there was that he was there several times when I was in the 7th grade and that he would tie me to the bed or tie me in a closet on a thing that we had in our closet uh like where you hang up clothes

A. Ok, like a clothes just clothes rack

D. Yea, like a…a pole in the closet

A. Ok

D. And he would umm have sexual intercourse with me or sodomize me or oral copulation and lots of time there was actual film speed taken movie cameras of this and also pictures

A. Ok

D. (inaudible)

A. So did they…did the video’s show both of you, did it show you and John Ramsey

D. Yes










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A. In full…full body type pictures

D. Mm-huh

A. Ok, so

D. And lots of times they would use, especially if they had you’d tied it up they would use two different camera’s. They would put a camera towards your head and…and a camera towards your genitalia

A. Ok, now could you also see John Ramsey’s head in these photo’s or these video’s

D. Yea

A. Ok, have you ever seen these video’s playing

D. They weren’t video’s and

A. Ok

D. They were umm put on umm real..real tapes

A. Ok, little real tapes

D. Yea

A. Ok, have you…have you seen these video’s

D. Yes I have

A. Ok, do you know where those video’s are at currently

D. No, but I can tell you that when I lived in Trona with my mom and step father, that they had a movie screen out in the…a big like open patio and they would take umm me and my sister and my brother whoever else happened to be there and some men and teenage boys and they would all go out unto this patio they would pull down this screen and they would show these movies

A. Ok, and these…these movies of John Ramsey and you





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D. And different and various other people

A. Ok, and again lets…we’re gonna focus just on John Ramsey for right now

D. Mm-huh

A. Umm again focusing on the very last encounter that you can remember with John Ramsey and actually umm lets go…lets go to that step by step…that occurred at your mother’s apartment

D. Yes

A. Ok, lets go step by step what occurred

D. I can give you the address

A. Ok

D. If that would help you, it was at the time it was called umm XXXX or XXXX and it’s now on XXXX in Los Osos

A. Ok, so lets…lets talk about that last encounter with John Ramsey, how did it start umm you talked a little bit about who was there but tell me what occurred specifically just on the last one

D. It’s really hard for me to say which one is the last one

A. Ok

D. I mean do you understand that I…oh excuse me…umm

C. Will explained why it’s hard for you to (inaudible) (C&D taking)

D. Well cause there were so many different people involved

A. Ok

D. In these…and also right now and fearing a lot of fear for my life

A. Mm-huh

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And so on....never mind Kreb's family claim she is mentally ill and deny abuse! It's an entire family conspiracy against Nancy! Yep amazing how alllllll these people still keep the secrets.

Funny...was John Ramsey REALLY cleared of all the sex crime charges by Nancy? hehehehehe

Eagle1 said:

Maybe you could post some of it in case I'm not the only one who did not ever see it? Guess you know, it's against rules of debate to claim a thing never happened just because we personally never saw it happen.

(Or, I guess implied, to assume she's wrong just because she's a woman and he's wealthy and powerful? Ever read a womens' magazine article about typical slanders of female whistleblowers? Have we come a long way baby or back to the stone age? )

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Eagle did you ever read what I posted for you?

Sorry, Show Me, no, I didn't see it. I've kept thinking you didn't post any of Krebs' testimony.

Editing to say I scrolled back up and there it is, two posts. Must have been a lot of work. Thanks. (Gag) Don't know if some of it may be true. I thought she'd only talked about FW.

No prob Eagle, I copied and pasted from the link above. It's on the FFJ site and you can read the whole thing if you want.

Nancy is a sick person and I think she was manipulated thru her therapist, the media and a few internet posters who were taken in by her.