Viable suspect: Damien Echols

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Here are two different accounts of the Great Dane story ..

Jason’s cousin, Joe Bartoush (age 12 or 13)
http://callahan.8k.com/images2/joebar2.jpg
On 10-27-92 I was at Lakeshore Trailer Park with Damien Echols when he killed a Black Great Dane. The dog was already sick and he hit the dog in the back of the head. He pulled the intestines out of the dog and started stomping the dog until blood came out of his mouth. He was going to come back later with battery acid so that he could burn the hair and skin off of the dog’s head. He had two cat skulls, a dog skull and a rat skull that I already knew about. He kept these skulls in his bedroom at Jack Echols house in Lakeshore. He was trying to make the eyeballs of the dog he killed pop out when he was stomping. Damien had a camoflouge survival knife to cut the guts out of the dog with.

Heather Cliett (Jason Baldwin’s girlfriend at the time)
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/heatherc1.html
“[Heather] States that one time at the skating rink Damien told her that he stuck a stick in a dogs eye and then jumped on it and then burned it.”
 
kyleb said:
Yes, considering the available evidence is always best. In regard to evidence of Echols lying, I recommend starting with the important issue of his claims of having an alibi, addressed on this page under the heading "Damien Echols Failed Alibis".
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I just spent quite a bit of time on that site and I have no idea what you see there that you find compelling.

ETA: what kind of informational site concludes by presenting a series of highly disputed claims as fact? C'mon now...you can't accuse the documentaries of bias and then refer people to that site for honest reporting.
 
I didn't refer you to the site in general, but rather the ""Damien Echols Failed Alibis" section in particular. If you've found anything which you believe is less than factual in that section, please quote it here.
 
kyleb said:
I didn't refer you to the site in general, but rather the ""Damien Echols Failed Alibis" section in particular. If you've found anything which you believe is less than factual in that section, please quote it here.
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Did you take a look at the dates of those statements?
 
I've reviewed those statements in their entirety, dates in included. That said, since you're beating around the bush regarding Echols' claims of an alibi, I suppose I'll try a different approach. Do you know what Echols' address was at the time of the murders?
 
kyleb said:
Did you not see where I disagreed with the opinion portions of Entrenous' post? It's right there in what you quoted from me. Of course I don't have any issue with the facts from her post being in the common ground thread though, or any facts for that matter.
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If I wasn't clear enough, my apologies. I was only referencing the fact that the references from the letters cited by EntreNous are song lyrics or taken from books. I wasn't meaning the import or significance of Damien having written them, just that original sources for those particular writings came from the various songs and books cited.
 
Mrs G Norris said:
Here are two different accounts of the Great Dane story ..

Jason’s cousin, Joe Bartoush (age 12 or 13)
http://callahan.8k.com/images2/joebar2.jpg
On 10-27-92 I was at Lakeshore Trailer Park with Damien Echols when he killed a Black Great Dane. The dog was already sick and he hit the dog in the back of the head. He pulled the intestines out of the dog and started stomping the dog until blood came out of his mouth. He was going to come back later with battery acid so that he could burn the hair and skin off of the dog’s head. He had two cat skulls, a dog skull and a rat skull that I already knew about. He kept these skulls in his bedroom at Jack Echols house in Lakeshore. He was trying to make the eyeballs of the dog he killed pop out when he was stomping. Damien had a camoflouge survival knife to cut the guts out of the dog with.

Heather Cliett (Jason Baldwin’s girlfriend at the time)
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/heatherc1.html
“[Heather] States that one time at the skating rink Damien told her that he stuck a stick in a dogs eye and then jumped on it and then burned it.”
Click to expand...

Was there ever any evidence found to corroborate these allegations? I would certainly give them more weight if there was.
 
reedus23 said:
Was there ever any evidence found to corroborate these allegations? I would certainly give them more weight if there was.
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I agree. Unless there is some kind of outside corroboration how am I to know that the statement isn't a product of coercion? I know there are people here who feel the Miskelley confessions were genuine and that there is no evidence of coercion, but the way they read to me, there is no question that they are false. So how can I not question the legitimacy of all other statements?
 
Schuby said:
Half the the people I know have conned shrinks into scrips for Xanax or adderall to party on. The few people that actually sought treatment for legitimate problems ended up having incredible trouble finding a doctor they could actually work with. It's not like taking an X-ray or running some blood work.
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Mental health worker's are human, they do not have crystal balls to tell them who is telling the truth. What I said was that mental health worker's DO NOT make up nor fake symptoms or signs of illness regarding their patients. They evaluate behavior. So half the people you know are fakers? How is that the fault of the psychiatrist? WHO is doing the lying? Who looks bad? This is why legitimately ill people can't get proper treatment. Half the people coming to MD's are fakers???:banghead::moo::stormingmad:
 
reedus23 said:
Was there ever any evidence found to corroborate these allegations? I would certainly give them more weight if there was.
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What about another witness?

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/blh.html

Or Damien's mom's own testimony in court?

FOGLEMAN- ALRIGHT. DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT DAMION HAVING CAT SKULLS AND CARRYING THEM AROUND?

PAM- IT WASN'T A CAT SKULL. IT WAS A DOG SKULL.

FOGLEMAN- ALRIGHT. WHERE WAS THAT?

PAM- IT WAS HANGING ON MY CLOTHES LINE IN THE BACK YARD WHERE I MADE HIM LEAVE IT OUT THERE TO DRY BEFORE HE CARRIES IT TO SCHOOL.

FOGLEMAN- OKAY. LEAVE IT OUT THERE TO DRY. WHAT HAD HE DONE TO IT?

PAM- HE FOUND IT ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD.

FOGLEMAN- OKAY, BUT I MEAN, WHAT DID IT NEEDED DRY FROM?

PAM- IT JUST SMELLED BAD AND I MADE HIM HAND IT OUT THERE IN THE SUN.

FOGLEMAN- OKAY. AND YOU DON'T KNOW OF HIM CARRYING A CAT SKULL AT SCHOOL.

PAM- NO.

FOGLEMAN- OKAY. DO YOU KNOW OF HIM HAVING ANY OTHER SKULLS?

PAM- NO.

FOGLEMAN- OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHY HE CARRIED A DOG SKULL TO SCHOOL?

PAM- UM, HE HAD TOLD ME THAT HE WAS GOING TO CARRY IT TO SCHOOL FOR, SOMETHING LIKE THEY HAD SHOW AND TELL. OR SOME TYPE OF SCIENCE PROJECT.

FOGLEMAN- OKAY.

PAM- AND HE ONLY CARRIED IT THE ONE DAY.

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/pamh2.html

Why do I have the feeling it wouldn't matter if I had video of the incident?
 
MissJ said:
Mental health worker's are human, they do not have crystal balls to tell them who is telling the truth. What I said was that mental health worker's DO NOT make up nor fake symptoms or signs of illness regarding their patients. They evaluate behavior. So half the people you know are fakers? How is that the fault of the psychiatrist? WHO is doing the lying? Who looks bad? This is why legitimately ill people can't get proper treatment. Half the people coming to MD's are fakers???:banghead::moo::stormingmad:
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Lol, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending them. I'm just saying it doesn't take a diabolical genius to dupe a shrink.
 
reedus23 said:
Was there ever any evidence found to corroborate these allegations?
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The witness reports from Bartoush and Cliett are evidence in themselves, direct evidence to the act and a confession no less, and then of course there is what Mrs G noted above.

Schuby said:
how am I to know that the statement isn't a product of coercion?
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How can you know this isn't all just a dream within a dream, and the murders never actually happened? I'm mean if you're going to ignore your own suggestion "to turn to the evidence as a guide", and go with the "no question" approach to whatever you want to believe instead, why not shoot for the moon?

MissJ said:
Half the people coming to MD's are fakers?
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Surely not, but at least half the people Schuby associates with apparently do con doctors into giving them drugs.
 
kyleb said:
Well the well the witness reports from Bartoush and Cliett are evidence in themselves, direct evidence to the act and a confession no less. But yes, yes there are a coupe of lesser tidbits of circumstantial evidence which anyone whose read the all the investigative reports and trial transcripts would have come across. Mrs G already posted one, perhaps if you think back on it at bit you might recall the other?


How can you know this isn't all just a dream within a dream, and the murders never actually happened? I'm mean if you're going to ignore your own suggestion to "to turn to the evidence as a guide", and go with the "no question" approach to whatever you want to believe instead, why not shoot for the moon?


Well surely not, but at least half the people Schuby associates with apparently do con doctors into giving them drugs.
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Hey, I've got friends in low places!

I think you're ignoring the fact that there are allegations of police coercion in this case. I'm not having some Cartesian crisis of reality by being concerned for the validity of the statements collected by police in the case.
 
kyleb said:
The witness reports from Bartoush and Cliett are evidence in themselves, direct evidence to the act and a confession no less, and then of course there is what Mrs G noted above.


How can you know this isn't all just a dream within a dream, and the murders never actually happened? I'm mean if you're going to ignore your own suggestion "to turn to the evidence as a guide", and go with the "no question" approach to whatever you want to believe instead, why not shoot for the moon?


Surely not, but at least half the people Schuby associates with apparently do con doctors into giving them drugs.
Click to expand...

BTW-making a determination based on the content of a written confession IS going by the evidence.
 
When I was a teen I carved OZZY into my arm and was all about being dark and weird and shocking.. Fast forward 30 years to a conservative housewife that went through almost the same thing with her own teen dd...

There is a weird shock thing that teens like to do and they also think they are wise and mysterious.. In fact, There were more people raised from the dead then just Lazarus and Jesus but those are only two popular ones so he picked them.

Who knows what it is like to grow up and be so different from all the others?

I would also like to know how many reports about him were written before the Murders or in retrospect?
 
Schuby said:
I think you're ignoring the fact that there are allegations of police coercion in this case.
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No, I'm aware of allegations of coercion on both sides, but I respect the difference between allegations and evidence.

Schuby said:
BTW-making a determination based on the content of a written confession IS going by the evidence.
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I've yet to find any written confession in this case, so I'm at a loss as to what you are alluding to here. That said, one can go about "making a determination" that any and every statement is false, particularly when dreaming up excuses to dismiss them one at a time rather than considering the body of evidence as a whole.
 
ScarlettScarpetta said:
When I was a teen I carved OZZY into my arm and was all about being dark and weird and shocking.. Fast forward 30 years to a conservative housewife that went through almost the same thing with her own teen dd...

There is a weird shock thing that teens like to do and they also think they are wise and mysterious.. In fact, There were more people raised from the dead then just Lazarus and Jesus but those are only two popular ones so he picked them.

Who knows what it is like to grow up and be so different from all the others?

I would also like to know how many reports about him were written before the Murders or in retrospect?
Click to expand...

All the ones from Exhibit 500 were written before, two court ordered psychiatric hospitalisations, and his parents had him hospitalised once also, there are also documents in there written by Damien himself.
 
kyleb said:
No, I'm aware of allegations of coercion on both sides, but I respect the difference between allegations and evidence.


I've yet to find any written confession in this case, so I'm at a loss as to what you are alluding to here. That said, one can go about "making a determination" that any and every statement is false, particularly when dreaming up excuses to dismiss them one at a time rather than considering the body of evidence as a whole.
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As stated in my above post, I am aware that some people don't find the allegations credible and that they therefore see no reason to be skeptical of other evidence collected by that department. Based on the *transcribed* confessions (apologies for the sloppy word choice), I, however, do find them credible.
 
ScarlettScarpetta said:
When I was a teen I carved OZZY into my arm and was all about being dark and weird and shocking..
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I was never one to cut myself, but I put at least my share of harmful chemicals through my system, and I enjoyed shocking people in my own ways while I was in high school in a backwater Midwest town slightly smaller and for more remote than West Memphis. For example, went to my girlfriend's prom in in an even smaller town wearing my favorite black t-shirt with Charles Manson face on the front and "support family values" on the back, a purple blazer, baggy orange jean shorts, and combat boots, and with longer hair than many of the girls there, my girlfriend included. My rebellious youth doesn't stop me from coming to terms with Echols documented psychiatric history though, let alone the evidence that he committed the murders along with Baldwin and Misskelley.

ScarlettScarpetta said:
In fact, There were more people raised from the dead then just Lazarus and Jesus but those are only two popular ones so he picked them.
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On what evidence are you making your claims of fact here, regarding Jesus and Lazarus for starters? Best I've been able to tell, there's nothing more than rumors to support such claims.

Schuby said:
As stated in my above post, I am aware that some people don't find the allegations credible and that they therefore see no reason to be skeptical of other evidence collected by that department.
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I see reason to give skeptical consideration to each and every piece of evidence, regardless of who collected it. If didn't I surely would've bought the story West of Memphis tried to sell me, rather than taking the time to do further research and discover all the evidence how much evidence was misrepresented if not outright ommmited in that movie and the many other arguments for innocence I've come across both before and since then.

Schuby said:
Based on the *transcribed* confessions (apologies for the sloppy word choice), I, however, do find them credible.
Click to expand...
So, you've only read the transcriptions, and not even bothered to listen to the publicly available recordings before formulating your opinion?
 
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