Something that has been bugging me... (WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT)

WhereAreTheyNow said:

That's a fascination question and is being partially discussed in another thread.

My post was mainly intended as a counterpoint to what law enforcement and many members of this forum regard as given (i.e., evidence was manipulated to confuse investigators). But the existence of a RN begs the fundamental question: Did the killer(s) intend for the body ever to be found?

If staging = true:

Was the staging for the benefit of LE and/or one of the parents?

When and where did the killer(s) expect the body to be discovered?

If staging = false:

Why all the bizarre and contradictory evidence?

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I don't believe it was to throw off investigators as much as to "undo" what has been done and offer some comfort in death.
Putting the clean panties that JonBenet had wanted....was part of that.

All IMO


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WhereAreTheyNow said:

I figured my post would draw criticism from the diehard "stagers".

Take a deep breath and consider my questions:

What if the original plan was to remove all evidence from the basement before morning? What then is the purpose for staging?

Why, you ask, is this possibility being discussed? Because there was a RN!

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I believe the original plan may have been to remove all evidence from the house, but the biggest evidence of all (JB's dead body) could not be removed without neighbors seeing the activity. So plan B (or C or D) is to put or leave the body in the basement. In that case, staging is a must.

WhereAreTheyNow said:

I figured my post would draw criticism from the diehard "stagers".

Take a deep breath and consider my questions:

What if the original plan was to remove all evidence from the basement before morning? What then is the purpose for staging?

Why, you ask, is this possibility being discussed? Because there was a RN!

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Regardless if her body was removed or as it was left in the wine cellar ... There was staging.
After several deep breaths...I'm still not sure exactly what it is you're trying to get at. The scene was clearly altered, staged, with or without the note. The note was just adds another layer. all IMO

WhereAreTheyNow said:

I figured my post would draw criticism from the diehard "stagers".

Take a deep breath and consider my questions:

What if the original plan was to remove all evidence from the basement before morning? What then is the purpose for staging?

Why, you ask, is this possibility being discussed? Because there was a RN!

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I asked this same exact question not too long ago, and somebody, (can't remember who, sorry), gave me a pretty good answer. She said the staging might have been done so when and if the dumped body was found, evidence would point to a psycho kidnapper, and not back to them. I can agree with this logic, but I'm still not convinced, you know? because I happen to think ransom note=missing child, 1+1=2. It's moo though, that some of the staging within staging the FBI referred to and some of the undoing might have been done once the killer(s), realized that the opportunity to dump the body had come and gone. In other words, once it became obvious that cops weren't leaving the house, they decided to manipulate evidence to make JB's body more presentable to LE. moo

Linda7NJ said:

The person didn't want her to be "cold" on the basement floor. IMO it's a thing a mom that did love her daughter would do. As was covering her with the blanket. The loosely tied wrist restraints. Wiping her down.

Where are her original panties?


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She also drew red hearts in JB's palms.

LinasK said:

She also drew red hearts in JB's palms.

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Not to be too off topic, but there was another recent case of a dead tot found in a box in the garage (horrendous case indeed) and there was a *heart* drawn on the outside of the box.

IMO, that points to the mothers.

ATasteOfHoney said:

Not to be too off topic, but there was another recent case of a dead tot found in a box in the garage (horrendous case indeed) and there was a *heart* drawn on the outside of the box.

IMO, that points to the mothers.

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I want to know if she was wearing that jewelry ( ring & necklace) at the party. I'd love to see photographs of JonBenet if there were any taken at that party too.



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Linda7NJ said:

I want to know if she was wearing that jewelry ( ring & necklace) at the party. I'd love to see photographs of JonBenet if there were any taken at that party too.



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I believe I read that Patsy allowed JB to open her jewelry gifts early so she could wear them to the party. I am sure there were photos taken. We have seen one or two of the R's own party- but only LE have seen photos of the White's party. That is how they knew positively that JB was wearing the white shirt and not the red one.

OMG what if everyone is right and no one completely??? Sorry. I think I just hurt my head on this case.

ATasteOfHoney said:

Not to be too off topic, but there was another recent case of a dead tot found in a box in the garage (horrendous case indeed) and there was a *heart* drawn on the outside of the box.

IMO, that points to the mothers.

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To me it only strongly suggests to mothers expressing guilt after the fact while covering for the BF, sig other, husband, child, or THINKING they are.

In my mind, the garrotte, the cords, and the ransom note all go hand in hand. Someone with a vivid imagination and a penchant for drama was creating, what they thought, was a cohesive story.

JMO

I wonder why we have never seen pictures that were taken at the Whites? Was JAR there?
Was BR wearing the Hi-Tech boots? How much supervision was given to the children there that evening? What does FW know about all of this, and why has he never come forward to speak about something he may know? Was he thrown under the bus, as a warning to keep his mouth shut?

Darlene733510 said:

I wonder why we have never seen pictures that were taken at the Whites? Was JAR there?
Was BR wearing the Hi-Tech boots? How much supervision was given to the children there that evening? What does FW know about all of this, and why has he never come forward to speak about something he may know? Was he thrown under the bus, as a warning to keep his mouth shut?

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Significant and haunting questions long pondered by many. JAR did reportedly return to Georgia from Boulder on Dec 19th.

Something I have harbored for a very long time and will put out there for possible responses: Within a couple of days of this case breaking in 1996, my local newspaper ran an article which included a photograph of several male acquaintances of John's, as well as JR himself. The purpose of the article was to name the males who were in the house on the morning of the 26th and those with JR when JB's body was discovered and brought upstairs. The photograph was a casual posed shot of about 5 guys, kind of waist up shot, grouped. I swear the photo included JAR, but I honestly cannot remember the reference given for the event. At the time when my dad became intrigued with this case, seeing the college age brother in the shot, that immediately caused Dad to suspect JB had been a victim of incest, and possibly beyond family boundaries.

How I wish I had been an article clipper at the time...especially regarding this case. I have searched every archive I can think of, and there is no trace of the photo. Does anyone else remember seeing a photo of that type, or maybe have an article saved?

dodie20 said:

It's moo though, that some of the staging within staging the FBI referred to and some of the undoing might have been done once the killer(s), realized that the opportunity to dump the body had come and gone. In other words, once it became obvious that cops weren't leaving the house, they decided to manipulate evidence to make JB's body more presentable to LE. moo

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It's hard to believe a) someone had the plan of removing the body after the police left, b) someone thought the police would leave quickly with a kidnapper on the loose, or c) someone "decided to manipulate evidence" with the police in the house at the time.

The police request that they search the house "from top to bottom" gave JR a chance to head straight to the WC, according to Kolar. This suggests JR may have known where the body was, and this was his golden opportunity to be the one to discover it, making him look less guilty.

I can't see how they called the police and expected them to leave quickly or not search the house. Maybe I have unrealistic expectations, but I called the police and said someone sneaked into our house and kidnapped our daughter without anyone hearing anything, I would expect 24-hour police protection until they figured out what we were dealing with. I would expect the police to kick everyone out of the house and search it for any booby traps and then for evidence. I wouldn't expect an opportunity to touch anything after the police arrived.

The reason I would expect such a strong response is they were saying they had a criminal with ninja-like abilities who preys on young children. It's about the most terrifying criminal I can imagine. Whoever did it lucked out that they the police response at first wasn't commensurate to the crime.

Sorry to repost this same question, but I'm eager to hear what OTG thinks.

otg said:

IIt should be obvious why they did not want the entire recording released. It is incriminating evidence.

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Do you think this is a conspiracy to protect someone or a LE decision to hide this information to avoid contaminating a jury or to avoid sharing this information with a perp or accomplice?

otg said:

IListen to this, which has the first part of the call that is usually transcribed as "inaudible". See if you can hear in the first four seconds what Patsy says before she says, "Police!" If you can, take note of the change in tone between the two sections and let me know if you want to continue.

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I have never listened carefully to that part. It sounds like she says "...one". When the operator comes on, she say "Hi, we need... POLICE!" My guess is she was telling someone "I'm calling 911," and the last "1" is captured in the recording. The "one" does sound to be the same tone as the rest the call.

I'm eager to hear what you think.

CircuitGuy said:

Sorry to repost this same question, but I'm eager to hear what OTG thinks.



Do you think this is a conspiracy to protect someone or a LE decision to hide this information to avoid contaminating a jury or to avoid sharing this information with a perp or accomplice?



I have never listened carefully to that part. It sounds like she says "...one". When the operator comes on, she say "Hi, we need... POLICE!" My guess is she was telling someone "I'm calling 911," and the last "1" is captured in the recording. The "one" does sound to be the same tone as the rest the call.

I'm eager to hear what you think.

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Sorry, CG, I started earlier today to answer you, but got called away.

As you already mentioned pareidolia, you are aware of the phenomena so you understand why I didn’t tell you first what I hear before you listened to it. I wanted to make sure I didn’t influence what you might hear by telling you my thoughts first. And actually, a more specific term for this would be folie à deux between you and I, folie à plusieurs if we got others involved, and as the instigator -- I would be the folie imposée. (I’m not a Francophile, those are the actual terms.)

Since you suggest something different than what I hear, I went back and listened to it with your words in mind to see if I could agree. I don’t. Where you hear the words “one” and “Hi”, what I still hear is the word “Hun’”, -- as in the shortened version of the word “Honey” -- a quaint little colloquial term of endearment used mostly in Southern states. I hear the word spoken twice -- the first time it sounds to me like the end of a sentence, and the second time it seems to be spoken at the beginning of the next sentence. So what I hear would be, “Blah blah blah something (before connection), Hun. Hun, we need a (or “to”)...(pause) POLICE!” (I could make suggestions on what she might have been saying in the first sentence that was started before the connection was made, but that would only be speculation.)

Were there not a difference in her voice, or if I was only reading the words, I could almost think she was speaking to the 911 operator and saying, "Hun, we need a... police." But it’s important (I think anyway) to notice the change in tone between the two. I think the first part which is usually quoted as “inaudible” (even in Kolar’s book) is Patsy speaking in an almost exhausted tone to someone else there in the room with her (I believe it sounds like the tone she would use with a child -- not her husband). Listen again, and see if you don’t notice the change in tone between the first 3 or 4 seconds and the rest of what she says when speaking to the 911 operator (starting with the word "Police!"). Also, I think when she almost shouts the word "Police", she may have been alerting anyone else in the room to the fact that she had them on the line.

Darlene733510 said:

I wonder why we have never seen pictures that were taken at the Whites? Was JAR there?
Was BR wearing the Hi-Tech boots? How much supervision was given to the children there that evening? What does FW know about all of this, and why has he never come forward to speak about something he may know? Was he thrown under the bus, as a warning to keep his mouth shut?

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There were pictures taken at the White's. They are all in evidence and have not been released to the public. BR was not wearing the Hi-Tec's to my knowledge at the time. His parents told LE he did not own a pair, but he admitted to police that he did. FW was thrown under the bus after he confronted JR about not cooperating with police. I think after that, FW took a step back because the R defense team could easily have gone after him. One mistake FW made was picking up the duct tape from the white blanket, where JR tossed it after pulling it off JB's lips. This puts FW's prints on a piece of evidence VERY intimately connected with her death. I am sure FW has spoken to police on more than one occasion, but I have never seen any of his testimony.

otg said:

Listen again, and see if you don’t notice the change in tone between the first 3 or 4 seconds and the rest of what she says when speaking to the 911 operator (starting with the word "Police!"). Also, I think when she almost shouts the word "Police", she may have been alerting anyone else in the room to the fact that she had them on the line.

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I do not hear the change in tone, but I do hear how POLICE sounds very much like she's trying to alert someone else in the room she's talking to the police. I can almost imagine the facial expression she might have made: yes the POLICE are on the line, FFS; keep it down!

Here are my problems with what you hear:

• Assuming there is not a long delay in the line, PR continues talk that you think is directed to someone in the house a while after the operator comes on. (Delays were much less common back then before VoIP. If this were a modern mobile call, I would assume it's delay.)
• If the call were a key part of a coverup, wouldn't she avoid trying to talk to other people in the room while it was ringing?
• It sounds like she was at least crying or upset in the first part and possibly more upset following "POLICE". What change of tone do you hear?

I'm only asking out of curiosity b/c I find the content of the call extremely suspicious. I just don't find anything suspicious hidden in the tone or background noise. The one tone item you said that rings true is the "POLICE" thing.

My opinion is that a garrote around the neck looks more like an outside person was involved than a bash to the skull. Could tying the garrote around a body dead for a few hours be detected? Would there be signs or struggle or friction to the neck if one was alive while being clinched tighter and tighter? Either before police show at the scene or during John's extended time in the basement may have staged the cover up. Still think Patsy hit her and John helped cover it up. He may even went as far as stage the molestation on the day of the murder. Quite sick, but these two did not want to be caught and were probably grasping at straws at stereotypical descriptions of child murders. Good post too. No need for someone to think they would need to have 2 ways to kill her and use both.

CircuitGuy said:

I do not hear the change in tone, but I do hear how POLICE sounds very much like she's trying to alert someone else in the room she's talking to the police. I can almost imagine the facial expression she might have made: yes the POLICE are on the line, FFS; keep it down!

Here are my problems with what you hear:

• Assuming there is not a long delay in the line, PR continues talk that you think is directed to someone in the house a while after the operator comes on. (Delays were much less common back then before VoIP. If this were a modern mobile call, I would assume it's delay.)
• If the call were a key part of a coverup, wouldn't she avoid trying to talk to other people in the room while it was ringing?
• It sounds like she was at least crying or upset in the first part and possibly more upset following "POLICE". What change of tone do you hear?

I'm only asking out of curiosity b/c I find the content of the call extremely suspicious. I just don't find anything suspicious hidden in the tone or background noise. The one tone item you said that rings true is the "POLICE" thing.

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Maybe we should have moved this conversation to the “911 Call” thread, or the “Who Has Heard Burke's Voice on The 911 Tape?” thread, but I suppose it’s too late now. There are numerous other threads also where this is discussed, and wengr has started another one recently on just the “What did you find?” portion. But here we are.

First, for the record, let’s look at what is usually transcribed as the conversation:

PR: (inaudible) police.
911: (inaudible)
PR: 755 Fifteenth Street
911: What is going on there ma’am?
PR: We have a kidnapping...Hurry, please
911: Explain to me what is going on, ok?
PR: We have a ...There’s a note left and our daughter is gone
911: A note was left and your daughter is gone?
PR: Yes.
911: How old is you daughter?
PR: She is six years old she is blond...six years old
911: How long ago was this?
PR: I don’t know. Just found a note a note and my daughter is missing
911: Does it say who took her?
PR: What?
911: Does it say who took her?
PR: No I don’t know it’s there...there is a ransom note here.
911: It’s a ransom note.
PR: It says S.B.T.C. Victory...please
911: Ok, what’s your name? Are you...
PR: Patsy Ramsey...I am the mother. Oh my God. Please.
911: I’m...Ok, I’m sending an officer over, ok?
PR: Please.
911: Do you know how long she’s been gone?
PR: No, I don’t, please, we just got up and she’s not here. Oh my God Please.
911: Ok.
PR: Please send somebody.
911: I am, honey.
PR: Please.
911: Take a deep breath (inaudible).
PR: Hurry, hurry, hurry (inaudible).
911: Patsy? Patsy? Patsy? Patsy?

You can listen to the better of the two originally released recordings here. I clipped the first part of it if you’d rather listen to just it right here.

Since the first part seems to be incomplete or interrupted sentences, I suppose that’s why it is usually just transcribed as “inaudible” -- even the 911 operator’s answering the call with “911 emergency...” is left out, as well as her interrupted “What’s going on there, ma’am?” (which she has to repeat) is transcribed as “inaudible” the first time she tries to say it. So if we fill in the first part with what I believe is said in red (including what the 911 operator clearly says), it should look more like this (I couldn’t remember how to do columns in HTML for comparing side-by-side, so here’s a picture instead):



I hope you have a decent set of headphones, because it would help.

The delay in responding, which you mentioned as a “problem”, I’m certain is not due to an electronic delay. The call was made from a regular landline phone somewhere in the house (I hope you noticed my thought on which one it was [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9964342#post9964342"]here[/ame]) I think the delay in responding is simply because of her being distracted with the other conversation that was going on before she realized the call had been answered. That’s why (IMO) when she does respond to the 911 operator, it’s almost a shouted “POLICE!” -- as if (I think) to alert John to make anyone else in the room quiet.

Remember that if you believe the parents staged this thing or altered any evidence at all (as I do believe), they were probably up almost all night under devastating circumstances. They were tired, needing sleep, distraught, and pushing themselves to hold it all together before the police arrived. I wouldn’t expect either one of them to be “at the top of their game” at that point, and I think that’s probably why they both made what we think in hindsight were little mistakes.

Try listening again to the beginning of the recorded 911 call with all this in mind while you look at and read the two versions above. See if it doesn’t all make a little more sense. Then maybe we’ll continue this little exercise and go on to the end of the call on the thread titled “911 Call”.