Flies and Maggots in the trunk - forensic entomology #1

Status
Not open for further replies.
K - following up here and not trying to argue with anyone ;)

I am missing the point of why everyone is so wrapped around the axle, I guess, and I'm not an entymologist (do we have anyone here at WS who IS and can help us?!?!? PLEASE!!!)

Seems to me that (1) if Caylee died on the 15/16 of June (which is when I think she passed away), and (2) the life cycle of the flies began wherever she was initially placed BEFORE she was later placed in the trunk, and (3) she was in the trunk for approz. 2.5 days before car went to Amscott, you could get the flies and maggots July 15, right, especially if there was enough dried out pizza for them to eat on (shuddering at the thought now.)

Anyone?

all the other stuff is a wee bit to much for me--but as I recall no maggots or flies would eat the pizza....could be wrong but remember that somewhere along the line---but then again..its been a long long winding road...
jmo
 
Not a bug expert, but I don't think we know enough about the flies to use them in a timeline. If there was any human fluid/food source in the trunk, the flies could have entered after the body was removed and began their cycle. We don't know what kind of fly or how many stages there really were in the trunk.

I also think the FBI trunk report was preliminary, and looks like it needed to be fine-tuned re the mean temps in FL during the time in question. I think this initial report was mainly addressing what the smell actually was. Further study might alter the 2-3 day estimate.
 
all the other stuff is a wee bit to much for me--but as I recall no maggots or flies would eat the pizza....could be wrong but remember that somewhere along the line---but then again..its been a long long winding road...
jmo

I believe what happened was when the FBI ran a control experiment with the same brand of pizza that the pizza box was and for a similar amount of time, no maggots were present and they noted it as an interesting thing.
 
I watched a show years ago when a woman died in a bathtub and was there approx. around a month. CSI did testing... Maggots .. put in a blender and ran DNA on them..this can be done..amazingly how they do things like this. But by doing this they narrowed it down to how long the body was dead to the date an i think approx. time .. so yay for maggot dna in blenders testing... IMO i think this is one of the many dna testing from body farm that we the public has not seen yet, among alot of other evidence not shown yet.
 
Is there an actual factual reference to maggots being found in the trunk? I cannot find a source that is not Cindy and her pizza theory or LP repeating that info.

The tow truck people do not mention maggots in their statements. Simon does reference flies when the trunk opens, but nothing about maggots.

They are not mentioned by LE, by the forensic reports, or in any of the request for discovery documents? They are not mentioned in the bond hearing when they are explaining to the judge why they think this is going towards a murder investigation. They are not listed in the evidence that Baez wants preserved for defense testing. They would be really vital evidence, why aren't they mentioned anywhere?

Just starting to wonder if this didn't start with Cindy?
 
When someones heart stops pumping blood around their body, the tissues and cells are deprived of oxygen and rapidly begin to die.

But different cells die at different rates. So, for example, brain cells die within three to seven minutes, while skin cells can be taken from a dead body for up to 24 hours after death and still grow normally in a laboratory culture.

From this point on, nature is very efficient at breaking down human corpses. Decomposition is well under way by the time burial or cremation occurs. However, the exact rate of decomposition depends to some extent on environmental conditions.

Decomposition in the air is twice as fast as when the body is under water and four times as fast as underground. Corpses are preserved longer when buried deeper, as long as the ground isn't waterlogged.

The intestines are packed with millions of micro-organisms that don't die with the person. These organisms start to break down the dead cells of the intestines, while some, especially bacteria called clostridia and coliforms, start to invade other parts of the body.

At the same time the body undergoes its own intrinsic breakdown under the action of enzymes and other chemicals which have been released by the dead cells. The pancreas, for example, is usually packed with digestive enzymes, and so rapidly digests itself.

The decomposing tissues release green substances and gas, which make the skin green/blue and blistered, starting on the abdomen. The front of the body swells, the tongue may protrude, and fluid from the lungs oozes out of the mouth and nostrils.

This unpleasant sight is added to by a terrible smell as gases such as hydrogen sulphide (rotten egg smell), methane and traces of mercaptans are released. This stage is reached in temperate countries after about four to six days, much faster in the tropics and slower in cold or dry conditions.

A corpse left above ground is then rapidly broken down by insects and animals, including bluebottles and carrion fly maggots, followed by beetles, ants and wasps.

In the tropics, a corpse can become a moving mass of maggots within 24 hours.

If there are no animals to destroy the body, hair, nails and teeth become detached within a few weeks, and after a month or so the tissues become liquefied and the main body cavities burst open.

I truly believe that she was placed somewhere in a protective covering (possibly buried), then moved to a different location, during that transport the protective covering was breached and that would explain the smell of decomp in the car, although the trunk is closed it is not sealed from the front compartment and the smell would migrate from the trunk to the inside compartment.

The body if buried and then moved would most likely leave trace amounts of soil in the trunk also. I think she left the car at Amscot because the smell was so bad that she could not stand it.

Often a body will be relocated to a different area, you have to remember that she is a CSI fan and although the stories they tell are not 100% accurate, they are also not that far off about body disposal.

At which point do you tie in the 2.6 days, that is the big question.
 
When someones heart stops pumping blood around their body, the tissues and cells are deprived of oxygen and rapidly begin to die.

But different cells die at different rates. So, for example, brain cells die within three to seven minutes, while skin cells can be taken from a dead body for up to 24 hours after death and still grow normally in a laboratory culture.

From this point on, nature is very efficient at breaking down human corpses. Decomposition is well under way by the time burial or cremation occurs. However, the exact rate of decomposition depends to some extent on environmental conditions.

Decomposition in the air is twice as fast as when the body is under water and four times as fast as underground. Corpses are preserved longer when buried deeper, as long as the ground isn't waterlogged.

The intestines are packed with millions of micro-organisms that don't die with the person. These organisms start to break down the dead cells of the intestines, while some, especially bacteria called clostridia and coliforms, start to invade other parts of the body.

At the same time the body undergoes its own intrinsic breakdown under the action of enzymes and other chemicals which have been released by the dead cells. The pancreas, for example, is usually packed with digestive enzymes, and so rapidly digests itself.

The decomposing tissues release green substances and gas, which make the skin green/blue and blistered, starting on the abdomen. The front of the body swells, the tongue may protrude, and fluid from the lungs oozes out of the mouth and nostrils.

This unpleasant sight is added to by a terrible smell as gases such as hydrogen sulphide (rotten egg smell), methane and traces of mercaptans are released. This stage is reached in temperate countries after about four to six days, much faster in the tropics and slower in cold or dry conditions.

A corpse left above ground is then rapidly broken down by insects and animals, including bluebottles and carrion fly maggots, followed by beetles, ants and wasps.

In the tropics, a corpse can become a moving mass of maggots within 24 hours.

If there are no animals to destroy the body, hair, nails and teeth become detached within a few weeks, and after a month or so the tissues become liquefied and the main body cavities burst open.

I truly believe that she was placed somewhere in a protective covering (possibly buried), then moved to a different location, during that transport the protective covering was breached and that would explain the smell of decomp in the car, although the trunk is closed it is not sealed from the front compartment and the smell would migrate from the trunk to the inside compartment.

The body if buried and then moved would most likely leave trace amounts of soil in the trunk also. I think she left the car at Amscot because the smell was so bad that she could not stand it.

Often a body will be relocated to a different area, you have to remember that she is a CSI fan and although the stories they tell are not 100% accurate, they are also not that far off about body disposal.

At which point do you tie in the 2.6 days, that is the big question.

Great post Georgia PI! We also had extremely hot temperatures in central florida this summer. If she kept her outside for 24- 48 hours and then stuffed her in a garbage bag and put her in the trunk....the smell would have been terrible. The maggots would have been there as well. Geez! OMG!
 
I dont think there were maggots or flies. maybe an embelishment, maybe something subconcious associating smell with maggots and flies. The only person I've seen talk about maggots and flies is ca on tape when ca and ga were on the way into see kc at the jail. I truly believe that the body was burned, the gas can incident was different this time. Also what if on the 18th she brought the body into the backyard and put her on the ground in order to transfer her into the rolling duffel bag ? She put her in the sand box and put the lid on it, she could not leave her out in the open, she then went back into the house to the garage and got the rolling duffel bag out of her car, back through the house to the backyard, take body out of sandbox, oh darn forgot to open suitcase first, put body on ground next to pool unzip suitcase, put in zip up. borrow shovel from neighbor, dad locked shed, gotta get those gas cans, break lock get gas cans load everything into trunk (suitcase gas cans) return shovel. dirt in trunk is from the suitcase wheels. I personally am a big "the first 48" fan and one of the hardest things to identify is a badly burned body.
 
The manager of the impound lot said there were "maggots and things" when George opened up the trunk of the Pontiac.

I dont think there were maggots or flies. maybe an embelishment, maybe something subconcious associating smell with maggots and flies. The only person I've seen talk about maggots and flies is ca on tape when ca and ga were on the way into see kc at the jail. I truly believe that the body was burned, the gas can incident was different this time. Also what if on the 18th she brought the body into the backyard and put her on the ground in order to transfer her into the rolling duffel bag ? She put her in the sand box and put the lid on it, she could not leave her out in the open, she then went back into the house to the garage and got the rolling duffel bag out of her car, back through the house to the backyard, take body out of sandbox, oh darn forgot to open suitcase first, put body on ground next to pool unzip suitcase, put in zip up. borrow shovel from neighbor, dad locked shed, gotta get those gas cans, break lock get gas cans load everything into trunk (suitcase gas cans) return shovel. dirt in trunk is from the suitcase wheels. I personally am a big "the first 48" fan and one of the hardest things to identify is a badly burned body.
 
The manager of the impound lot said there were "maggots and things" when George opened up the trunk of the Pontiac.

he said there were flies, but he also said there was a pizza box, but he couldnt remember if he had seen the pizza box really, or if he heard it on the news.
 
The manager of the impound lot said there were "maggots and things" when George opened up the trunk of the Pontiac.

I've reread Simon B's statement a number of times and the only mention of maggots I can find is when he describes the odor of the dumpster. At no time does he say there were maggots in the trunk or the bag.
 
Simon does mention the fies and he does indicate that when he goes back to look for the bag the next day, he thought to use the flies as an indicator as to where the bag was.

MOO

ETA - Is anyone else having trouble with the way that posts are appearing. Many posts are showing up centered for me at the moment vs. the usual justified left???
 
Simon does mention the fies and he does indicate that when he goes back to look for the bag the next day, he thought to use the flies as an indicator as to where the bag was.

MOO

ETA - Is anyone else having trouble with the way that posts are appearing. Many posts are showing up centered for me at the moment vs. the usual justified left???

The posts are normal for me, but someone mentioned the same problem on another thread.
 
IIRC the tow yard man mentioned maggots first. He mentioned flies in the trunk, then he tossed the bag over the fence near the dumpster and later had to pick it up to put it in the dumpster. Later, he searched the dumpster for the bag when he heard the news about Caylee missing, however LE had already retrieved it. He mentioned how nasty the dumpster was, maggots etc.

Then CA said the pizza was rotting in the trunk and it and the maggots made the smell. This is where we all assumed that at least the bag had maggots on it, if not other areas of the trunk.

LE didn't mention maggots and we have seen no entimology reports on maggots/flies or any testing of maggots for DNA.

Bottom line, WE do not know if there were maggots in the trunk and the fly information was from the tow yard man.

This whole issue could be one that morphed into a trunk full of flies and maggots based upon tidbits of information.
 
The posts are normal for me, but someone mentioned the same problem on another thread.
Lol. Thanks. I seem to be justified left again! (Couldn't think straight with everything centered.)

I'm hoping that there might be a maggot milkshake report in some of the forensic investigations that we haven't seen yet!
 
http://www.local6.com/news/17927572/detail.html
New Documents Released

WKMG 11/6/2008 Local 6 News investigative reporter Tony Pipitone:

More than 500 pages of documents pertaining to the Anthony case were released Thursday by the state attorney's office.
The documents include never-before released interviews of Anthony's parents, George and Cindy Anthony.
In an interview about retrieving Casey Anthony's car from an impound lot after it was found abandoned at an Orange County Amscot, George Anthony said the smell in the car was terrible.
"I believe that there's something dead back there, and I hate to say the word 'human,'" said George Anthony, who told detectives he knew something was wrong and was nervous to open the trunk. "I think I whispered out to myself, 'Please don't let this be my Caylee.'"
George Anthony said he also saw a basketball-sized stain on the carpet of the trunk, Arm & Hammer laundry detergent and a plastic garbage bag contaning a pizza box and maggots.
 
When someones heart stops pumping blood around their body, the tissues and cells are deprived of oxygen and rapidly begin to die.

But different cells die at different rates. So, for example, brain cells die within three to seven minutes, while skin cells can be taken from a dead body for up to 24 hours after death and still grow normally in a laboratory culture.

From this point on, nature is very efficient at breaking down human corpses. Decomposition is well under way by the time burial or cremation occurs. However, the exact rate of decomposition depends to some extent on environmental conditions.

Decomposition in the air is twice as fast as when the body is under water and four times as fast as underground. Corpses are preserved longer when buried deeper, as long as the ground isn't waterlogged.

The intestines are packed with millions of micro-organisms that don't die with the person. These organisms start to break down the dead cells of the intestines, while some, especially bacteria called clostridia and coliforms, start to invade other parts of the body.

At the same time the body undergoes its own intrinsic breakdown under the action of enzymes and other chemicals which have been released by the dead cells. The pancreas, for example, is usually packed with digestive enzymes, and so rapidly digests itself.

The decomposing tissues release green substances and gas, which make the skin green/blue and blistered, starting on the abdomen. The front of the body swells, the tongue may protrude, and fluid from the lungs oozes out of the mouth and nostrils.

This unpleasant sight is added to by a terrible smell as gases such as hydrogen sulphide (rotten egg smell), methane and traces of mercaptans are released. This stage is reached in temperate countries after about four to six days, much faster in the tropics and slower in cold or dry conditions.

A corpse left above ground is then rapidly broken down by insects and animals, including bluebottles and carrion fly maggots, followed by beetles, ants and wasps.

In the tropics, a corpse can become a moving mass of maggots within 24 hours.

If there are no animals to destroy the body, hair, nails and teeth become detached within a few weeks, and after a month or so the tissues become liquefied and the main body cavities burst open.

I truly believe that she was placed somewhere in a protective covering (possibly buried), then moved to a different location, during that transport the protective covering was breached and that would explain the smell of decomp in the car, although the trunk is closed it is not sealed from the front compartment and the smell would migrate from the trunk to the inside compartment.

The body if buried and then moved would most likely leave trace amounts of soil in the trunk also. I think she left the car at Amscot because the smell was so bad that she could not stand it.

Often a body will be relocated to a different area, you have to remember that she is a CSI fan and although the stories they tell are not 100% accurate, they are also not that far off about body disposal.

At which point do you tie in the 2.6 days, that is the big question.


Blech, yuck, ugh, oh my, hiccup, deep breath:sick:!!!!
 
In that interview GA also says there were maggots in the pizza box--same thing CA said.

So YES there were maggots, whether LE or the body farm has released that info or not.
 
In that interview GA also says there were maggots in the pizza box--same thing CA said.

So YES there were maggots, whether LE or the body farm has released that info or not.

If LE recovered the maggots from the tow yard's dumpster, it might be difficult to even know which maggots came from the bag thrown out from Casey's trunk and which maggots came from the dumpster itself. Even if the maggots were ON the bag, if the dumpster itself were "full of maggots" who is to know that any maggot on the bag was even a blowfly maggot? Does one type of maggot look different from another?

We know the bag was collected. Do we have any confirmation on the contents? Does LE list like "white garbage bag containing empty pizza box and maggots"
 
In that interview GA also says there were maggots in the pizza box--same thing CA said.

So YES there were maggots, whether LE or the body farm has released that info or not.



George's statement to the police says he thinks there were insects of some sort in the trunk.

George opened the trunk, Simon chucked the bag, and LE collected it from the dumpster. Cindy never would have seen the contents.

The FBI forensic reports that were released specifically said that no pizza was found in the car.

I will continue to hope they were there because it will help convict her, but I think I will discount Cindy and George's accounting of them at the moment.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
203
Guests online
4,430
Total visitors
4,633

Forum statistics

Threads
592,469
Messages
17,969,388
Members
228,777
Latest member
Jojo53
Back
Top