Flies and Maggots in the trunk - forensic entomology #1

[CarrieSis]

I *think* that if someone perhaps used chloroform as a spot cleaner in the trunk, say someone with experience in car detailing than it would not have been present to affect the maggots and other insect activity in the trunk or may have interrupted the cycle well after it had started..

 

[LCoastMom]

Wonder if she was potty trained yet? My grandson just turned three and he is.. I was thinking mine where trained by 2 anyway.

No, Lee said not yet, apparently they were working on it. There were some diapers and her doll in the car, along with the car seat, but no clothes or food, snacks or drinks, you would expect to find for a little one.

 

[ClockWatcher]

I *think* that if someone perhaps used chloroform as a spot cleaner in the trunk, say someone with experience in car detailing than it would not have been present to affect the maggots and other insect activity in the trunk or may have interrupted the cycle well after it had started..

I came to this same conclusion!! :clap:

 

[headndownstream]

I just keep wondering over and over how, if we understand maggot lifecycle, she could move the body if it had maggots crawling around. They'd have to be visable in the more 'tender' parts. How she kept it together, came away with nothing more than waking up sweating and bad dreams......I'd be insane I'm sure.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

From page 316.

"[Simon] Birch is the facility manager of the wrecker yard....During he morning of July 15, 2008, while Mr. Birch was working at 7777 Narcoossee Road, Mr. Birch was sumond by witness Nicole Lett. Mrs. Lett was working in the front office of the tow yard and was dealing with two upset customers. Mr. Birch met with George Anthony and Cynthia Anthony. Ms. Anthony was upset with the cost of the tow, the length of the time the car was stowed, and requested a discount. Mr. Birch explained the cost of the tow and storage fees, and explained the notification process to Cynthia Anthony and George Anthony. Mr. Birch refused to give a discount. George Anthony agreed to pay for the release of the white Pontiac, providing the white Pontiac's title and his driver license. Mr. Birch took Mr. Anthony into the tow yard to get the car.

"As they walked, George Anthony mentioned to Mr. Birch his daughter had been missing for awhile, now she will not allow him to see his granddaughter, and has told him several lies. When they reached the white Pontiac, George Anthony used a key to unlock the white Pontiac's driver side door. When the door opened, a very foul odor came from inside the white Pontiac. Mr. Birch immediately recognised the odor as the same odor he smelled in a car stored on the log in which a man committed suicide inside. The man was reported to have remained deceased in the car for approximately five days. The smell from the white Pontiac was not as strong as the other car. Mr. Birch stated, "That's rotten." George Anthony did not reply. George Anthony and Mr. Birch went to the white Pontiac's trunk in an attempt to locate the source of the odor. George Anthony opened the trunk and he and Mr. Birch observed a white garbage bag inside the trunk. Flies also came out of the trunk. Mr. Birch opened the garbage bag and observed several papers, a pizza box, and maggots. Mr. Birch threw the garbage bag over the fence near the tow lot's dumpster."

Originally Posted by QuickAttack

If you have a queasy stomach, PLEASE DO NOT READ THIS.

I really hate to be morbid, but the documents that were released last night leave little wiggle room.

The towyard manager said that when he opened the trunk, flies flew out and there were maggots inside.

A trunk is a sealed environment. Flies will not attempt to enter something like a closed, sealed trunk to lay eggs on a pizza box. Even if that pizza box had pizza in it, it just isn't going to happen. Think about the times you've left a half-eaten hamburger on the floorboard of your car. (I'm guilty of this...commuting to work, high-stress job, forgot about the half Big Mac I left in the car for a week.) Think about the Taco Bell bag you left on the back seat...people with kids will admit that we've occasionally left food in the car and forgotten to remove it.

Sometime in their life cycle, those flies entered that trunk with Caylee's body.

I believe that Caylee's body was stored outside somewhere...somewhere that flies could have laid eggs on the corpse. It could have been stored there for as brief as several hours or as long as several days.

Casey worried that the body would be found wherever she left it. Or maybe she knew the dumpster-emptying schedule for the waste company in Orlando. At any rate, she went back to remove the body from the place she had left it, and she put it in her trunk.

Possibly, the corpse stayed in the trunk from the time she retrieved it until the second time she dumped it. The second dumping of the corpse could have been done on the evening of the 26th, early AM hours of the 27th (the time window when her car was left at Amscot, parked by the dumpster).

When she loaded the decomposing corpse into the trunk the second time, fluids leaked out. Clumps of hair fell out. Possibly decomposing flesh detached from the body. Decomposing flesh with maggots already hatching.

When she removed the body from her trunk (to possibly place in the Amscot dumpster), some of those pieces of flesh with maggots were left behind, possibly on the white garbage bag in the trunk.

This would explain why there were flies and maggots in the trunk when the towyard manager opened it.

Let's look at a generalized life cycle of the species of flies that assists in decomposition of a body (if we knew the exact species, we could be less generalized in the life cycle):

From egg to larva (maggot) is 2-5 days. Until day 5, the larvae are feeding on the body.

The larvae move away from the body to become pupae, and are adult flies on day 19 or 20. Adult flies feed on body fluids, mate immediately after emergence, and lay eggs within two days of emergence...and the cycle begins again.

So, to summarize this:

Day 1 - eggs laid.

Day 2 - eggs hatch.

Day 2 to 5 - larvae move into and around the body, feeding.

Day 6 to 19 - pupa stage, no feeding on corpse, mature flies will emerge from the hard case.

Day 20 - adult fly emerges, feeds.

Day 22 - adult fly lays eggs on corpse.

Therefore, the flies that were found in the trunk were second generation flies, as were the maggots, because the car sat sealed at the towyard for 16 days. The second generation had already emerged and begun laying eggs, which had hatched into maggot staged larvae.

I can't wait to see what a forensic entomologist will reveal about this case. I think that the transport of the corpse can be nailed down to within a couple of days using the life cycle of the flies that flew out of the trunk on July 16th.

Beautiful work Quick Attack. This confirms that Caylee was in fact buried prior to being placed in that trunk. My bet is on the backyard. Good :woohoo:work!!! :woohoo:

 

[Gaia713]

If there was a "poopy diaper" in the trash bag, it would certainly breed maggots. You'd be surprised how easily flies can get into a "Sealed" environment.

I agree with the life cycle timeline, however. Just not that the only explanation is a corpse.

The bag with the pizzza was recovered. Was there a poopy diaper in it?

Given there was NO PIZZA in that box, it makes Cindy's claim even more ludicrous - maggots were on a pizza box? I have never known maggots to attack a box.

If there were bodily fluids left in the car, would flies go after that? Just a question.

 

[bullet225ho]

I'm having a problem with this scenario as the flies would be in the second generation. If she were burried and then moved I'd doubt that fly's would have gotten to her under ground. the decomposition was stated to be 2.6days old when it left the trunk.

if second generation maggots are say 23 days old (stated earlier) then thats 29 days.

This seems hard for me to concieve that she was killed on the 16th.

Only scenario would be if she was and then burried, but that would take away the 2.6 days of decomposition....

unless she was placed in a freezer/refrigerator to "stop" decomp and prevent flys from laying eggs.

does that make sense?

 

[sweetwater]

Beautiful work Quick Attack. This confirms that Caylee was in fact buried prior to being placed in that trunk. My bet is on the backyard. Good :woohoo:work!!! :woohoo:

I agree, Nedthan. Quick also posted some great maps for the landfill, way early on.
I miss QA's humor and passion, too.

 

[passionflower]

who cleaned up that mess? did LE get that evidence?

 

[DotsEyes]

The fly life cycle confuses me in light of the 2.6 days of decomp. If I understand this information, the body was in the trunk briefly 2.6 days after death or IN the trunk for 2.6 days. Yet the flies and maggots were present on the 15th of July. The larvae and the maggots need a moist food source. What did the flies lay their eggs on and what were the maggots eating for all of these days? There is no mention of anything in the trash bag except an old pizza in a box and papers. Nothing in the trash bag could sustain what adds up to the 27 days of fly life necessary for a second stage fly cycle with maggots.

Fluid leaks would soak into the trunk carpeting and would not sustain the maggots.

Due to the decomp gases, we know the body was not in the trunk while it was in the tow yard. Likewise, it was not there on the 27th at Amscot as this would only be 20 days of fly life. The 25th would be exactly 22 days, but this does not coincide with the general opinion that Caylee died 9 days earlier, on the night of 16th/17th when we factor in the 2.6 days of decomp gases and would put the death at or on the 23rd - a week after Caylee was last seen by GA.

31 days. 22 from fly to larvae to fly. 9 days left. Not enough for a 3rd stage fly life cycle and inconsistent with 2.6 days of death decomp.

I hope I have made myself clear, but as I am confused, who knows? If the time of death is correct, then does this mean that the body was stored where decomp was delayed such as in a freezer?

" I am sorry about the shed". KC tells GA on the 24th. He had no idea that she knew that the gas cans were taken at this time, but CA later said she herself had told KC about the shed and the gas cans before the 24th. GA wants to get into the trunk. He races KC to the trunk, she gets there first and takes out the gas cans "here are your *** cans." Why would she try to prevent GA from going into her trunk if she was racing to it to hand him the cans anyway? What difference would it make WHO retrieved them from the trunk at that point? None. She was trying to hide something other than gas cans. Was it the smell? I don't think so, she could make up a thousands stories about the smell and just drive away.

The cans disappeared after the 21st, according to GA, which was the last time he was in that shed. So they were removed late on the 21st, or on the 22 or 23rd. Does this time account for the 2.6 days of decomp? Cans removed, body retrieved from freezer, place into trunk, dumped and burned, using gasoline as the fire starter?

So where was the body from the 16th 17th until the 22d/23rd?

Who was out of town at this time? Anyone that we know of? Could she have stashed the body in a friend's freezer and had to get rid of it before they returned on the 24th/25th?

 

[AZlawyer]

The fly life cycle confuses me in light of the 2.6 days of decomp. If I understand this information, the body was in the trunk briefly 2.6 days after death or IN the trunk for 2.6 days. Yet the flies and maggots were present on the 15th of July. The larvae and the maggots need a moist food source. What did the flies lay their eggs on and what were the maggots eating for all of these days? There is no mention of anything in the trash bag except an old pizza in a box and papers. Nothing in the trash bag could sustain what adds up to the 27 days of fly life necessary for a second stage fly cycle with maggots.

Fluid leaks would soak into the trunk carpeting and would not sustain the maggots.

OK, this is confusing to me also (and makes my skin crawl), but I just wanted to add a couple of ideas that might help the timeline: (1) during the pupa stage (day 6-19) no food supply would be needed, (2) perhaps if there were eggs/maggots at different stages when they first got into the trunk, the ones in the later stages could survive long enough to get into pupa stage, then survive as adult flies on the dead maggots that didn't make it that far?, (3) apparently the adult flies can live 4-6 days without any food supply at all.

From https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/1811/2581/1/V32N04_389.pdf:
Flies kept entirely without food.—Another experimental cage of flies
was kept under the conditions stated above with the exception that no
food was given them at any time after emergence. Most of these
flies lived 4 days and some lived until the end of the sixth day.

 

[debs]

I'll keep asking until I get an answer, I suppose. Does anyone know if the Anthony's have a compost bin? They're notorious for attracting flies. Bury a body under the decomposing vegetable matter and you'll draw even more flies. I also don't imagine that there is a lot of oxygen being generated in decomposing vegetable matter.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

I'm having a problem with this scenario as the flies would be in the second generation. If she were burried and then moved I'd doubt that fly's would have gotten to her under ground. the decomposition was stated to be 2.6days old when it left the trunk.

if second generation maggots are say 23 days old (stated earlier) then thats 29 days.

This seems hard for me to concieve that she was killed on the 16th.

Only scenario would be if she was and then burried, but that would take away the 2.6 days of decomposition....

unless she was placed in a freezer/refrigerator to "stop" decomp and prevent flys from laying eggs.

does that make sense?

Most people believe she was killed on the 16th.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

I'm having a problem with this scenario as the flies would be in the second generation. If she were burried and then moved I'd doubt that fly's would have gotten to her under ground. the decomposition was stated to be 2.6days old when it left the trunk.

if second generation maggots are say 23 days old (stated earlier) then thats 29 days.

This seems hard for me to concieve that she was killed on the 16th.

Only scenario would be if she was and then burried, but that would take away the 2.6 days of decomposition....

unless she was placed in a freezer/refrigerator to "stop" decomp and prevent flys from laying eggs.

does that make sense?

Blow flies come immediately upon death unless in a closed environment. Even if there were no visible flies, or if they were brushed away, they would have already laid their eggs. The process would have continued with each stage of the flies until they matured into full blow flies like were in the trunk when it was opened. The process varies with the temperature. Regardless of the stage of the larvae, they can get DNA and drugs which were in the body.

 

[sweetwater]

I'll keep asking until I get an answer, I suppose. Does anyone know if the Anthony's have a compost bin? They're notorious for attracting flies. Bury a body under the decomposing vegetable matter and you'll draw even more flies. I also don't imagine that there is a lot of oxygen being generated in decomposing vegetable matter.

I've wondered about this, too, and have seen that there has been no response. It's an excellent point.
I'd wondered about the freezer deal, too, but I don't think its feasible at this point.
Another thing here is that 2.6 days from the afternoon of the 16th would put Caylee's body being removed late night/ dawn of the 19th, right? About 62 hours after her death, or she got her out on the 19th and disposed of her remains during the night of the 19th. Didn't George think that the gas cans had been taken on the 20th?

I'm kindof stuck on that far corner in the back yard where all the evidence flags are. There is a mound of dirt, imagine its samples, that are dumped into the lid of the sandbox. There is also a detective in several photos who seems to me to be pondering that site rather intently.
I wonder if they had already brought in a mound of sand or dirt or topsoil for the yard work they were going to do.
It rained and there were significant winds there the week of the 16-24. I've wondered, too, if the shovel wasn't just used for repairing damage created from mud, or to move sand around. There is some testimony, actually I remember it as being a question that one of the forensic guys asked George when they were out in the yard. He asked him about an indentation in the back yard. George said he didn't know anything about it, in essence. I'll see if I can find and post a link.

 

[sweetwater]

I just keep wondering over and over how, if we understand maggot lifecycle, she could move the body if it had maggots crawling around. They'd have to be visable in the more 'tender' parts. How she kept it together, came away with nothing more than waking up sweating and bad dreams......I'd be insane I'm sure.

Look at her eyes, before and after.
They go from sparkling and focused to vacant, lifeless, dehumanized voids. Windows into the soul of a ghoul, IMO.

Everyone lies. Everyone dies.
Oh well.

 

[amasleuth]

How could there be maggots and chloroform smell in the trunk?
If the trunk was closed, decomp fed maggots and flies would proliferate...I get that. The odor from chloroform would kill them though, wouldn't it?
Please reply?
TIA

 

[DotsEyes]

I don't think anyone said the trunk smelled like choroform but it was in the air, so I do not know how the flies and maggots survived. But, I bet there is an answer here somewhere.

AZLawyer - thanks for that information. So, from day 6 to 19 - no food necessary.

 

[Chezhire]

OK, this is confusing to me also (and makes my skin crawl), but I just wanted to add a couple of ideas that might help the timeline: (1) during the pupa stage (day 6-19) no food supply would be needed, (2) perhaps if there were eggs/maggots at different stages when they first got into the trunk, the ones in the later stages could survive long enough to get into pupa stage, then survive as adult flies on the dead maggots that didn't make it that far?, (3) apparently the adult flies can live 4-6 days without any food supply at all.

From https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/1811/2581/1/V32N04_389.pdf:
Flies kept entirely without food.—Another experimental cage of flies
was kept under the conditions stated above with the exception that no
food was given them at any time after emergence. Most of these
flies lived 4 days and some lived until the end of the sixth day.

well, :waitasec: isn't it possible that there was a food source in the trunk? it doesn't take much at all for them to eat, just a sayin...

 

[Chezhire]

The fly life cycle confuses me in light of the 2.6 days of decomp. If I understand this information, the body was in the trunk briefly 2.6 days after death or IN the trunk for 2.6 days. Yet the flies and maggots were present on the 15th of July. The larvae and the maggots need a moist food source. What did the flies lay their eggs on and what were the maggots eating for all of these days? There is no mention of anything in the trash bag except an old pizza in a box and papers. Nothing in the trash bag could sustain what adds up to the 27 days of fly life necessary for a second stage fly cycle with maggots.

Fluid leaks would soak into the trunk carpeting and would not sustain the maggots.

Due to the decomp gases, we know the body was not in the trunk while it was in the tow yard. Likewise, it was not there on the 27th at Amscot as this would only be 20 days of fly life. The 25th would be exactly 22 days, but this does not coincide with the general opinion that Caylee died 9 days earlier, on the night of 16th/17th when we factor in the 2.6 days of decomp gases and would put the death at or on the 23rd - a week after Caylee was last seen by GA.

31 days. 22 from fly to larvae to fly. 9 days left. Not enough for a 3rd stage fly life cycle and inconsistent with 2.6 days of death decomp.

I hope I have made myself clear, but as I am confused, who knows? If the time of death is correct, then does this mean that the body was stored where decomp was delayed such as in a freezer?

" I am sorry about the shed". KC tells GA on the 24th. He had no idea that she knew that the gas cans were taken at this time, but CA later said she herself had told KC about the shed and the gas cans before the 24th. GA wants to get into the trunk. He races KC to the trunk, she gets there first and takes out the gas cans "here are your *** cans." Why would she try to prevent GA from going into her trunk if she was racing to it to hand him the cans anyway? What difference would it make WHO retrieved them from the trunk at that point? None. She was trying to hide something other than gas cans. Was it the smell? I don't think so, she could make up a thousands stories about the smell and just drive away.

The cans disappeared after the 21st, according to GA, which was the last time he was in that shed. So they were removed late on the 21st, or on the 22 or 23rd. Does this time account for the 2.6 days of decomp? Cans removed, body retrieved from freezer, place into trunk, dumped and burned, using gasoline as the fire starter?

So where was the body from the 16th 17th until the 22d/23rd?

Who was out of town at this time? Anyone that we know of? Could she have stashed the body in a friend's freezer and had to get rid of it before they returned on the 24th/25th?

K - following up here and not trying to argue with anyone

I am missing the point of why everyone is so wrapped around the axle, I guess, and I'm not an entymologist (do we have anyone here at WS who IS and can help us?!?!? PLEASE!!!)

Seems to me that (1) if Caylee died on the 15/16 of June (which is when I think she passed away), and (2) the life cycle of the flies began wherever she was initially placed BEFORE she was later placed in the trunk, and (3) she was in the trunk for approz. 2.5 days before car went to Amscott, you could get the flies and maggots July 15, right, especially if there was enough dried out pizza for them to eat on (shuddering at the thought now.)

Anyone?