IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #27

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I just wish more searches would take place...
But clearly Lauren is not right in town, so where on earth to begin...
 
1) Who said LS was at this party at Smallwood?
(note it's not unusual for people in these social situations to find someone annoying or boring and go to another place - I'll agree LS seemed a bit restless, why is not clear)

2) Who said she left because of ZO?

3) I don't recall seeing anywhere that ZO has a lake, a boat, a dock, etc...
please elaborate on where these details come from. I do recall someone saying he was tied to local LE, and connected to gansters. Exactly where does ZO live? What is the name of this lake?
The latest article suggests her leaving smallwood had nothing to do with her being restless or because of ZO.She left and went to JR's because he texted her twice asking her to come.
"Rosenbaum was hosting a “pre-game” party up the street, a Thursday night tradition in which students gather to drink before heading out to the bars after midnight. After he texted Spierer twice to come over, she went there with David Rohn, a friend who lived at Smallwood."
http://www.lohud.com/article/2012060...nclick_check=1
I get the feeling JR sent these texts at CR's request.
 
He lived at 10th and College with three roommates, one of which was AB. ZO is the one who tweeted about giving somebody a flashlight and an Adderall to find LS. Given that DR mentions Klonopin, I wonder if ZO could have had a source for prescription drugs (or was one). In other words, could his concern at SW been as much about himself as her?

From memory, it was AB who tweeted about the flashlight and Aderall. ZO tweeted about the NY snow.
Since one of our own WS members later saw AB together with one of Lauren's friends (HT) it is probable that Lauren and AB were at least acquainted, if not friends. He could be a possibility for the 2nd phone call, since we really don't know much about his movements that night at all. Not much of a reason to suspect him... Except to point out that he does look quite like the description of the man the witness saw that had Lauren over his shoulder. She did specifically say that the man she saw was not CR.
 
Wouldn't it have been nice if the reporter, upon hearing some of these specific details, would have asked how this information is known (Video, witness, or speculation for some reason)? Even if they didn't want to answer as to how it was known you'd think they could answer as to whether it was in any form speculation or if they had sources somehow.

Even if the answer is "We'd prefer not to say" at least the reading public wouldn't be left so much in the dark and would know that info is being kept secret versus wondering if the question was even asked.

LS's head hitting the concrete from a sitting position as she just fell over made a "Thud". This means there was an eyewitness within ear shot. That was not from a cam. These steps were on the 10th st. side. The PI's did not indicate specifically where this door was, but from their condition it's likely it was close to those steps. The Bartender who saw LS slumped over a man's shoulder at 3:38 saw it on the other side of this building on College ave if my recollection is correct. This building is a key building between 5N and Smallwood, about half way. We know a lot about 5N and smallwood, yet for all of the connections and events around this building, there hasn't been much said. That bugs me.
 
I don't REALLY suspect JW, but to whomever said that his roommates would have had to falsely alibi him that isn't exactly true. We had a huge discussion over it at one point and, at the time, it sounded like they just saw him go to bed. I am assuming he shut his door, but technically it is possible that they did see him go to bed and then did not see him go out later or Lauren come by later. Like, if you think about it "sleeping" is a weird alibi. Unless you are literally in the same room watching the person sleep the night away it isn't a 100% alibi. He could have climbed out a window or walked out quietly once they were asleep. Lauren could have climbed through a window or walked in later after his roomies were asleep.

He is still super low on my suspect list even with the PI comments, but I do think it is possible without his roommates lying for him.



On another note, I still also think that CR was the mystery man that the witness saw and, for some reason, she remembered his physical characteristics a bit off due to a lot of reasons (our memories are horrible, it was probably dark, he was probably obscured by distance, shadows, angle of viewing, etc).


I would sure love to have full phone records for everyone that night (like, EVERYONE-all the POIs, Lauren, and anyone even remotely connected). Might be very interesting. Still kills me that no messages were left with those two phone calls. I wish we could confirm if she was still alive at that point :(
 
That's the same building where CR and LS went to knock on the door of the 4(girls?) whom did not answer, but someone saw LS fall over and clunk her head while sitting.

It's just north of here where the Bartender said she saw LS over a man's shoulder at 3:38am

This building is enroute from 11th & College (where JR claims to have last seen her) to Smallwood.

1) I'm really curious about why LS/CR was knocking on that door.
Perhaps LS wanted to crash there - 4 girls. It does make sense that the altercation at smallwood perhaps was enough to make LS just want to go crash somewhere else. But she may have had enough consciousness to know she didn't want to wind up at CR's place.

2) IF I were LE or PI I would have lists of everyone living in the 10th and College Building - as well as 5N and Smallwood and would analyze the connections between people in those buildings.

3) It may seem strange, but now, conscious or not, alive or not, willing or not, 3:15/3:38/or/4:30 this building is bugging me. Is the parking garage for this building underground? Are there cameras in the parking garage? Were cadaver dogs at this building? Doesn't DR also live in this building?
Besides ZO, and possibly DR are there any other POI's connected to this building?

I thought DR lived as Smallwood.

I also thought that there were security cameras at 10th and College Apts. Is that so? Are there security cameras at both 10th and College Apts and at 10th and College Villas?
 
The latest article suggests her leaving smallwood had nothing to do with her being restless or because of ZO.She left and went to JR's because he texted her twice asking her to come.
"Rosenbaum was hosting a “pre-game” party up the street, a Thursday night tradition in which students gather to drink before heading out to the bars after midnight. After he texted Spierer twice to come over, she went there with David Rohn, a friend who lived at Smallwood."
http://www.lohud.com/article/2012060...nclick_check=1
I get the feeling JR sent these texts at CR's request.

I like it when things get crossed off the list. The list gets shorter.
 
<snipped>

On another note, I still also think that CR was the mystery man that the witness saw and, for some reason, she remembered his physical characteristics a bit off due to a lot of reasons (our memories are horrible, it was probably dark, he was probably obscured by distance, shadows, angle of viewing, etc).

(

I think it was the bartender as well. I reread it the other day in Gatto's blog and it said "she doesn't believe it was Rossman." If she was shown his mugshot that is understandable.
 
I thought DR lived as Smallwood.

I also thought that there were security cameras at 10th and College Apts. Is that so? Are there security cameras at both 10th and College Apts and at 10th and College Villas?

Many of these photos highlight camera locations.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140294"]IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 *PHOTOS & MAPS* - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
 
Given that DR mentions Klonopin, I wonder if ZO could have had a source for prescription drugs (or was one). In other words, could his concern at SW been as much about himself as her?

Keep going, please elaborate what you are thinking about ZO protecting himself.

Also, In this situation, let's take a different look at the relationships here. Instead of CR being an enemy of ZO, lets say they knew each other because of the drug exchanges between mutual "friends". But ZO didn't want CR at smallwood for these "other reasons" particularly in his state of mind. Is there a connection between ZO and JR? What crossed my mind was, why would CR cover ultimately for ZO & Co. Or Why would ZO & Co. be the Person X or clean up crew for JR? If CR/MB had no knowledge of what happened to LS after she gets moved to JR's they can reasonably stick to their stories, pass polygraphs, and so on. So If JR gets LS over to his place and passes it(seriously bad situation) to Person X (let's say ZO&Co for a test). He also can claim he doesn't know what happened, saw her leave, etc... Each would have a compartmentalized role. Even though they should be able to figure out to some extent what happened.

So this drives curiosity about possible connections between JR + ZO & Co.
Are there any? Otherwise back to Person X.

At some point LS was taken in a vehicle or is still there very close. More than ever intuition tells me she did not leave 5N in a conscious state, nor did she get off that block bordered by 10th, Morton, 11th and College on foot.
Perhaps someone that was there the next day could explain what LE activity was like? At first, I would imagine some officers to talk to HT and other people in adjacent apartments. Then they go see CR/MB and then JR.
In the meantime, suppose LS was in the trunk of a car inside the 10th & College building parking garage(is there one?). Seems cars and other vehicles could be coming and going from this building and who would pay attention? She could have been transported from there to anywhere. Were she alive, she could have been kept there in an apartment for hours, days, who would know?

This gives some twists on JR's calls at 4:15. I don't believe JR's story, but for argument sake let's work it. LS can't remember phone numbers and asks JR, do you have XX's number, no, how about DR? Yes. So DR is called. She mumbles something about maybe he has her phone (if true, proves she is still very out of it, if a lie it's an interesting lie) Maybe she was thinking of DR for protection of returning to her apt? The other call, to someone also in smallwood or in the 10th & College building or JW? That would be very curious either way. Now looking the other way, JR as a lazy but still concerned friend, tells LS to call him when she gets to her apt. She really leaves at 3:30, it gets after 4:00 and he starts thinking, oh crap what now!? So he calls DR because he is a friend of LS and lives there in smallwood to check on her. He doesn't answer. Who else does JR call then? He changes his story to modify the time she left and to make it seem like she made the calls because he feels guilty for letting her go alone. That would almost work, except I don't think she was capable of standing, much less walking. No, not at 3:00, not at 3:30 and not at 4:15.
 
Wow, what a revelation that is...that there was a rowdy party at Smallwood too and that ZO was there, and that LS didn't care for ZO. So she leaves with DR to go to 5N. At 3:00 when they go back to Smallwood, ZO is still there and a fight ensues. Perhaps they were fighting over LS. And because she didn't care for ZO, she leaves again...this time with CR even though she is in bad shape. Perhaps ZO did lay in wait for her to leave, and intercepted her and did something to her and disposed of her body. ZO's friend AB meets the description of the mystery man. And maybe they took her away in a friend's construction vehicle (aka white truck). Maybe the reason all the boys are staying hush hush is because ZO has threatened them and they all are afraid of him, not to mention they all have a part in her demise. Thoughts???

Interesting
 
This gives some twists on JR's calls at 4:15. I don't believe JR's story, but for argument sake let's work it. <snipped>.

Hmm, just thinking 'outloud'... I'm not convinced she made the calls either. But, my thoughts on if she did: Why call DR and someone she was watching the game with earlier in the night (at Smallwood)? Not her roommates, not JW. If she had a key, it wasn't to let her in, and even if she didn't, wouldn't she have called her own roommates? It also doesn't make sense to me that it was for a ride home (If she didn't want to walk home with no shoes, she could have just made a choice to stay there until morning or called a cab). So... why call those two?

- She really was looking for her phone so called people she was with earlier in the night

- She knew she was in trouble and wanted to call the people who she had been partying with earlier to ask them what to do or for help.

- She called friends who were around when (or after) the altercation went down because she was worried about whether a) the conflict might be waiting for her when she got back and/or b) about whether JW had heard about or was looking for her/CR

If JR made the calls:

- He was calling her friends because he was "trying to make her someone else's problem" (as the PI said about MB) as things went from bad to worse

- She was already in distress/ unconscious and he didn't know what to do or needed help...
 
I'm just trying to think along with you here.

Keep going, please elaborate what you are thinking about ZO protecting himself.

Also, In this situation, let's take a different look at the relationships here. Instead of CR being an enemy of ZO, lets say they knew each other because of the drug exchanges between mutual "friends". But ZO didn't want CR at smallwood for these "other reasons" particularly in his state of mind.CR has been described as a smart alec by many; some even say he was a cute witty smart alec, but maybe ZO just punched him in retaliation for a smart remark, maybe it was a money matter. At 3 in the morning a punch wouldn't have to make perfect sense. Is there a connection between ZO and JR? What crossed my mind was, why would CR cover ultimately for ZO & Co.
When first approached CR doesn't know LS will never turn up. He is only concerned about his own liability if say LS winds up in a hospital with alcohol poisoning. Maybe his first lie was to hide that he bought her a couple drinks at Sports.
Or Why would ZO & Co. be the Person X or clean up crew for JR? If he was the supplier of the drugs that LS took and didn't want to answer any questions.
If CR/MB had no knowledge of what happened to LS after she gets moved to JR's they can reasonably stick to their stories, pass polygraphs, and so on. So If JR gets LS over to his place and passes it(seriously bad situation) to Person X (let's say ZO&Co for a test). He also can claim he doesn't know what happened, saw her leave, etc...True Each would have a compartmentalized role. Even though they should be able to figure out to some extent what happened. Silence motivated by fear???IDK

So this drives curiosity about possible connections between JR + ZO & Co.
Are there any? Otherwise back to Person X.

At some point LS was taken in a vehicle or is still there very close. More than ever intuition tells me she did not leave 5N in a conscious state, nor did she get off that block bordered by 10th, Morton, 11th and College on foot.
Perhaps someone that was there the next day could explain what LE activity was like? At first, I would imagine some officers to talk to HT and other people in adjacent apartments. Then they go see CR/MB and then JR. Maybe JR first because HT only knows that LS went to JR with DR at 12:00. So maybe either they go to DR or JR first.
In the meantime, suppose LS was in the trunk of a car inside the 10th & College building parking garage(is there one?). Seems cars and other vehicles could be coming and going from this building and who would pay attention? She could have been transported from there to anywhere. Were she alive, she could have been kept there in an apartment for hours, days, who would know?

This gives some twists on JR's calls at 4:15. I don't believe JR's story, but for argument sake let's work it. LS can't remember phone numbers and asks JR, do you have XX's number, no, how about DR? Yes. So DR is called. She mumbles something about maybe he has her phone (if true, proves she is still very out of it, if a lie it's an interesting lie) Maybe she was thinking of DR for protection of returning to her apt? The other call, to someone also in smallwood or in the 10th & College building or JW? That would be very curious either way. Very curious that this person is never named. Now looking the other way, JR as a lazy but still concerned friend, tells LS to call him when she gets to her apt. She really leaves at 3:30, it gets after 4:00 and he starts thinking, oh crap what now!? So he calls DR because he is a friend of LS and lives there in smallwood to check on her. He doesn't answer. Who else does JR call then? He changes his story to modify the time she left and to make it seem like she made the calls because he feels guilty for letting her go alone. Problem with this is that if she left at 3:30 alone don't you think JR would later come clean about his white lie as this became a search for an abductor. That would almost work, except I don't think she was capable of standing, much less walking. No, not at 3:00, not at 3:30 and not at 4:15.
 
Now looking the other way, JR as a lazy but still concerned friend, tells LS to call him when she gets to her apt. She really leaves at 3:30, it gets after 4:00 and he starts thinking, oh crap what now!? So he calls DR because he is a friend of LS and lives there in smallwood to check on her. He doesn't answer. Who else does JR call then? He changes his story to modify the time she left and to make it seem like she made the calls because he feels guilty for letting her go alone. That would almost work, except I don't think she was capable of standing, much less walking. No, not at 3:00, not at 3:30 and not at 4:15.

And, why wouldn't he call HT not DR to see if she made it home?
 
From memory, it was AB who tweeted about the flashlight and Aderall. ZO tweeted about the NY snow.
Since one of our own WS members later saw AB together with one of Lauren's friends (HT) it is probable that Lauren and AB were at least acquainted, if not friends. He could be a possibility for the 2nd phone call, since we really don't know much about his movements that night at all. Not much of a reason to suspect him... Except to point out that he does look quite like the description of the man the witness saw that had Lauren over his shoulder. She did specifically say that the man she saw was not CR.

Thank you, elmomom. My memory is slipping!
 
Keep going, please elaborate what you are thinking about ZO protecting himself.

Also, In this situation, let's take a different look at the relationships here. Instead of CR being an enemy of ZO, lets say they knew each other because of the drug exchanges between mutual "friends". But ZO didn't want CR at smallwood for these "other reasons" particularly in his state of mind. Is there a connection between ZO and JR?

Snipped by me. If ZO was involved in some type of drug trafficking ... and LS was showing signs of partaking something that could trace to him, perhaps even talking about it as Sports ... it could be problematic. But we really don't know if that's even a possibility.

I'm just thinking that her room would have been a safe place for her to be, in more ways than one. But that's assuming that she had a roommate home, or maybe it wouldn't have been, you know?

Also, I have read that JR and ZO were friendly, but again, I don't think it was from a definitive source. I wish I could be more helpful ...

PS: Edited to ask if anyone knows if there are cameras in the 10th and College building's parking garage ...
 
PS: Edited to ask if anyone knows if there are cameras in the 10th and College building's parking garage ...

I know that they had one facing the garage elevators at the very least. I think it is a good bet that there were others based on their "state of the art video system" claim on the website and their overall camera profile around the perimeter. The 2nd picture of the white truck (the one where you can see some of the right side of it) is taken from the camera that would show cars entering and exiting the parking garage.

I've said this before, but I'd consider any comings and goings from this building as verifiable through video.

edit- comings and goings above meaning entering and exiting the building. there are clearly blind spots around it such as the stair case on the corner.
 
I've been wondering if LE has had CR and L on camera entering/exiting the building of the four girls' apt. this whole time but kept it quiet to see who said what. Thoughts?

While walking around the three apartment buildings last weekend I thought it possible that CR might know of an alternative entryway into the building where the four girls live. It might be a no access or equipment door, exit-only door, non-public stairs, etc. The buildings appear quite secure. Perhaps he had the pass code for the main entry of whichever bldg they entered where they are then seen on camera.
 
I've been wondering if LE has had CR and L on camera entering/exiting the building of the four girls' apt. this whole time but kept it quiet to see who said what. Thoughts?

While walking around the three apartment buildings last weekend I thought it possible that CR might know of an alternative entryway into the building where the four girls live. It might be a no access or equipment door, exit-only door, non-public stairs, etc. The buildings appear quite secure. Perhaps he had the pass code for the main entry of whichever bldg they entered where they are then seen on camera.

Given that CR and JR tried to break into SW at one point (credit card instead of pass key?), I can imagine this. I believe I also read that LS and HT hung out at 10th and College the previous year ... can't seem to find the source for that right now. Maybe that's where she knew ZO from, if she indeed knew him and didn't care for him.

I like what VeryVeritas said about SW and 5N being scrutinized but not 10th and College ...
 
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