Evidence subject to Frye - *UPDATED* 2011.05.09 (ATTN: ALL ORDERS IN!)

So what do we figure the betting pool is on the remaining issues?

1. Plant Growth. I just can't see HHJP keeping this out. No appeals court will overturn a belief that one of the most eminently qualified, respected and experienced botanists in the state and nation cannot offer a reasonable professional expert opinion as to how fast plants grow. It borders on insanity.

2. Dr. Vass/Body Farm air tests. This is the big one that can go either way. On the negative side I think that the nature of Dr. Vass's proprietary database may give the judge some pause. But in the end I suspect that he may allow the evidence in. The underlying science is sound, proven and pretty much universal in its acceptance. But the big kicker is the evidence in question is heavily corroborated by other evidence, much of which he just allowed in for trial. The hair, the stain, the testimony by CA in the 911 call, the dog hits. All of this comes to the same conclusions as the air tests. So even if the appeals court would have issue with the tests, it would in all likelihood not be a reversible error.

3. Chloroform - I think that one will easily be in. The state is able to document the presence of chloroform in levels off the chart. The tests are known valid and supported tests. The defense can try and offer alternate theories to explain away its presence. But I think the data and testimony will come in.

just my speculative 2c :twocents:

momshrink said:

Just catching up and have not read everything, but maybe she used chloroform to put her to sleep and then bound her to keep her still and quiet in case she woke up before ICA came back. If she needed her to sleep for 10 or 12 hours - time to go and party and then sleep with TL or whoever, she could not risk Caylee waking and crying out or crawling around trying to get someone to help her. And, as horrible as this is, what if they had happened one of the times she drugged this child? MOO

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Since the tape was placed in a way that appeared to have covered both Caylee's nose and mouth - making noise wasn't an option...

Chloroform depresses the central nervous system, dosing lasts for 15 or 20 minutes at a time and often made the recipient very nauseous, with a killer headache - if ICA had previously tried to dose Caylee, leaving her somewhere to breathe fumes for hours, IMO Caylee would not have made it to June 16th. People under medical care died from this stuff regularly - that's why it was discontinued in surgery decades ago and IIRC banned in the US in 1976ish...

I don't pretend to have anymore answers in what happened to Caylee than anyone else who has followed this case, but I do not believe ICA was successfully anesthetizing Caylee and leaving her anywhere for hours - medically speaking it just doesn't make sense.

faefrost said:

So what do we figure the betting pool is on the remaining issues?

1. Plant Growth. I just can't see HHJP keeping this out. No appeals court will overturn a belief that one of the most eminently qualified, respected and experienced botanists in the state and nation cannot offer a reasonable professional expert opinion as to how fast plants grow. It borders on insanity.

2. Dr. Vass/Body Farm air tests. This is the big one that can go either way. On the negative side I think that the nature of Dr. Vass's proprietary database may give the judge some pause. But in the end I suspect that he may allow the evidence in. The underlying science is sound, proven and pretty much universal in its acceptance. But the big kicker is the evidence in question is heavily corroborated by other evidence, much of which he just allowed in for trial. The hair, the stain, the testimony by CA in the 911 call, the dog hits. All of this comes to the same conclusions as the air tests. So even if the appeals court would have issue with the tests, it would in all likelihood not be a reversible error.

3. Chloroform - I think that one will easily be in. The state is able to document the presence of chloroform in levels off the chart. The tests are known valid and supported tests. The defense can try and offer alternate theories to explain away its presence. But I think the data and testimony will come in.

just my speculative 2c :twocents:

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I worry about a reversal if the gas meter comes in, along with the cholorform...This has never been effectively argued or won on an appellate level...the State doesn't need it in for they can still call Dr. Vass to testify about it...I think that would be the safer way to utilize Dr. Vass' vast knowledge on the stages of decomp and the levels of choloroform the deceased body releases..along with the testing done on the squirrels and pizza...JMHO

Justice for Caylee

faefrost said:

So what do we figure the betting pool is on the remaining issues?

1. Plant Growth. I just can't see HHJP keeping this out. No appeals court will overturn a belief that one of the most eminently qualified, respected and experienced botanists in the state and nation cannot offer a reasonable professional expert opinion as to how fast plants grow. It borders on insanity.

2. Dr. Vass/Body Farm air tests. This is the big one that can go either way. On the negative side I think that the nature of Dr. Vass's proprietary database may give the judge some pause. But in the end I suspect that he may allow the evidence in. The underlying science is sound, proven and pretty much universal in its acceptance. But the big kicker is the evidence in question is heavily corroborated by other evidence, much of which he just allowed in for trial. The hair, the stain, the testimony by CA in the 911 call, the dog hits. All of this comes to the same conclusions as the air tests. So even if the appeals court would have issue with the tests, it would in all likelihood not be a reversible error.

3. Chloroform - I think that one will easily be in. The state is able to document the presence of chloroform in levels off the chart. The tests are known valid and supported tests. The defense can try and offer alternate theories to explain away its presence. But I think the data and testimony will come in.

just my speculative 2c :twocents:

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Thank you so much for this. I am relieved to know that Vass/Body Farm air tests, if let in, wouldn't be an automatic reversal on appeal. That was what worried me the most. But you're right, there is a plethora of evidence that basically says the same things as the tests do. I guess it just depends on if HHJP wants to take the risk and be the first to let this in a trial. I pretty much figured the plant stuff would be in as the defense's "expert" was freaking laughable. And I didn't realize the chloroform could come in so easily. Very interesting!

LCoastMom said:

Since the tape was placed in a way that appeared to have covered both Caylee's nose and mouth - making noise wasn't an option...

Chloroform depresses the central nervous system, dosing lasts for 15 or 20 minutes at a time and often made the recipient very nauseous, with a killer headache - if ICA had previously tried to dose Caylee, leaving her somewhere to breathe fumes for hours, IMO Caylee would not have made it to June 16th. People under medical care died from this stuff regularly - that's why it was discontinued in surgery decades ago and IIRC banned in the US in 1976ish...

I don't pretend to have anymore answers in what happened to Caylee than anyone else who has followed this case, but I do not believe ICA was successfully anesthetizing Caylee and leaving her anywhere for hours - medically speaking it just doesn't make sense.

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Thank you so much! I have been wondering about this for awhile now. Could Casey have just dosed her so she'd at least sleep so that Casey could put the duct tape on her, and then Casey just left her there? I mean, with her little arms restrained, she wouldn't be able to move much after waking up anyway. And maybe Casey was clumsy and spilled a bunch of chloroform in the trunk, so that would account for the high levels? I've often wondered if the chloroform wasn't to keep her asleep for a long period of time, just long enough so Caylee wouldn't struggle and Casey could get the duct tape on her a lot more easily. I am still stymied by the amount of chloroform in her trunk, though!

LCoastMom said:

Since the tape was placed in a way that appeared to have covered both Caylee's nose and mouth - making noise wasn't an option...

Chloroform depresses the central nervous system, dosing lasts for 15 or 20 minutes at a time and often made the recipient very nauseous, with a killer headache - if ICA had previously tried to dose Caylee, leaving her somewhere to breathe fumes for hours, IMO Caylee would not have made it to June 16th. People under medical care died from this stuff regularly - that's why it was discontinued in surgery decades ago and IIRC banned in the US in 1976ish...

I don't pretend to have anymore answers in what happened to Caylee than anyone else who has followed this case, but I do not believe ICA was successfully anesthetizing Caylee and leaving her anywhere for hours - medically speaking it just doesn't make sense.

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I did not know how powerful Chloroform is. But, I do think that she did something with Caylee to keep her quiet many times before her death - if not chloroform, what did she use???
Where was Caylee the nights before she died? I think there are nights that she was left alone somewhere - car trunk or somewhere.
I also cannot believe Caylee slept in the same room with the parties going on without some aid. One of my children would sometimes fall asleep in the room with a party, but only if he was very tired - it happened only twice in his life. I don't think Caylee had the opportunity to do very much to tire her. I just feel like ICA was using something to drug or immoblize Caylee before she died. I think this child suffered and protested and the need to get rid of her for good built momentum. JMO

momshrink said:

I did not know how powerful Chloroform is. But, I do think that she did something with Caylee to keep her quiet many times before her death - if not chloroform, what did she use???
Where was Caylee the nights before she died? I think there are nights that she was left alone somewhere - car trunk or somewhere.
I also cannot believe Caylee slept in the same room with the parties going on without some aid. One of my children would sometimes fall asleep in the room with a party, but only if he was very tired - it happened only twice in his life. I don't think Caylee had the opportunity to do very much to tire her. I just feel like ICA was using something to drug or immoblize Caylee before she died. I think this child suffered and protested and the need to get rid of her for good built momentum. JMO

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Re: the issue of Caylee sleeping in the same room with parties going on . . . I think that is a very "subjective subject". I believe much depends on other factors and your experience may or may not be representative of the situation with Caylee. Other factors can include but are not limited to:
1) if the child is used to going to sleep with a lot of noise (remember even newborn infants who have never been exposed to loud sounds can sleep in a nursery full of other crying infants).
2) How tired the child is
3) If the child is a heavy sleeper or a light sleeper
4) If KC sat with Caylee until she fell asleep and was able to move away from her . . . .

Just some thoughts I had . . and I should note I am an Extremely Sound Sleeper . . . the only thing that wakes me up is the telephone, or someone calling my name multiple times and a good shake. Be forewarned however, I have been known to throw the covers, sit straight up and scream "What the He!!?" Try this only at your own risk!

InSession just announced the judge ruled the hair root and dog searches can come into the trial.

I can' find it posted anywhere yet.

Snaz said:

InSession just announced the judge ruled the hair root and dog searches can come into the trial.

I can' find it posted anywhere yet.

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I don't either. I'm going to reserve my celebrating until I see it on the docket. What exactly did they say?

strawberry said:

I don't either. I'm going to reserve my celebrating until I see it on the docket. What exactly did they say?

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http://www.wftv.com/pdf/27677704/detail.html
04/26/2011 Order Denying Motion to Exclude Unreliable Evidence (Post Mortem Banding) and Unreliability of Scientific Testimony by Karen Lowe on Post-Mortem Hair Banding

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/27677667/detail.html
04/26/2011 Order Denying Motion in Limine to Exclude All Evidence Relating to Canine Searches and Alerts

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/27628677/detail.html
04/21/2011 Order Denying Motion to Exclude Irrelevant Evidence of Stain in Trunk of Car


04/26/2011 Order Denying Motion to Preclude Phantom "Heart Sticker" Evidence
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/27677501/detail.html

ThinkTank said:

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/27677704/detail.html
04/26/2011 Order Denying Motion to Exclude Unreliable Evidence (Post Mortem Banding) and Unreliability of Scientific Testimony by Karen Lowe on Post-Mortem Hair Banding

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/27677667/detail.html
04/26/2011 Order Denying Motion in Limine to Exclude All Evidence Relating to Canine Searches and Alerts

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/27628677/detail.html
04/21/2011 Order Denying Motion to Exclude Irrelevant Evidence of Stain in Trunk of Car


04/26/2011 Order Denying Motion to Preclude Phantom "Heart Sticker" Evidence
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/27677501/detail.html

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Oh duh. I read it really fast and thought it was saying the PLANT root (not hair root) was in...so I assumed also the air sampling. Doh.:banghead:

strawberry said:

I have a question a out the sticker that I didn't get a chance to ask last night. What was the order of the events? I am thinking that someone saw the residue, THEN as a result LE looked around and found the sticker at the site. Does anyone know if I am right on that or was it the other way around?

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I think it was probably a bit of both-The FBI found the residue after the site had been cleared and the tape shipped to Quantico. But when Caylee's body was found, LE did collect a piece of carbdoard near the remains that had a small puffy heart sticker on it. That small puffy sticker more closely resembled stickers KC had "bedazzled" her phone with.
While the residue is a different size than the sticker found at the site, I believe the residue prompted LE to photograph the stickers found in KC's dresser drawer, these stickers more closely matching the size of the residue.
IIRC, LE could not actually collect the stickers from KC's drawer as they did not include them on the search warrant. Someone will correct me if I am wrong (I know the diary could not be siezed, I think the stickers were not collected, either.)

Just Jayla said:

I think it was probably a bit of both-The FBI found the residue after the site had been cleared and the tape shipped to Quantico. But when Caylee's body was found, LE did collect a piece of carbdoard near the remains that had a small puffy heart sticker on it. That small puffy sticker more closely resembled stickers KC had "bedazzled" her phone with.
While the residue is a different size than the sticker found at the site, I believe the residue prompted LE to photograph the stickers found in KC's dresser drawer, these stickers more closely matching the size of the residue.
IIRC, LE could not actually collect the stickers from KC's drawer as they did not include them on the search warrant. Someone will correct me if I am wrong (I know the diary could not be siezed, I think the stickers were not collected, either.)

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LE has pictures of the stickers so I think they were taken from the home. They did not take the diary because of the date but took a photograph of it. CA turned the diary over to BC for safe keeping and it was later turned in to LE when the jailhouse letters were found. FBI released a report that the ink from the pen could not be identified by any known samples in the FBI database but did not release any information regarding whether they could "date" the ink by year. jmo

momshrink said:

I did not know how powerful Chloroform is. But, I do think that she did something with Caylee to keep her quiet many times before her death - if not chloroform, what did she use???
Where was Caylee the nights before she died? I think there are nights that she was left alone somewhere - car trunk or somewhere.
I also cannot believe Caylee slept in the same room with the parties going on without some aid. One of my children would sometimes fall asleep in the room with a party, but only if he was very tired - it happened only twice in his life. I don't think Caylee had the opportunity to do very much to tire her. I just feel like ICA was using something to drug or immoblize Caylee before she died. I think this child suffered and protested and the need to get rid of her for good built momentum. JMO

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Have you read the ping maps and the time line? I read them some months ago - most of ICA's time has been documented - Most of the time Caylee was with CA & GA (at night) while ICA worked her perfect job. Perfect I say because of the hours she was able to leave Caylee with her parents. Caylee spent some nights with "Zanny" ie; ICA and RM - Amy said ICA would put Caylee to bed then they hung out, drinking beer and playing cards or watching the tube. There was one party I recall hearing about early on where Caylee slept on someone's couch - but most of her friends have said Caylee was not around when they were having parties.

IMO ICA may have been using Benadryl or Dimetapp on Caylee in the evenings so she could go out without CA calling her to come home - but I don't think this had been a regular occurrence. I studied up on the active ingredient in Dimetapp for another case - the half life is 2 hours, so the effects (if not overdosed to death) double, triple, quadruple dosing would be markably reduced in 2 to 6 hours depending on the amount given. 4x the dose would be reduced to 2x in two hours, down to 1x in the next two hours, down to 1/2 dose in the following two hours - reasonable to say the effects would be minimal in the AM, if dosed in the evening prior. (this if I understood what I was reading) - maybe Joypath can drop by and give her opinion.

The down side is the same drug also makes some kids/people hyper. I know with my own DD, given just the recommended dose of either Benadryl or Dimetapp for allergies had equal chance of sleep or insomnia.

JMO

Aedrys said:

Thank you so much! I have been wondering about this for awhile now. Could Casey have just dosed her so she'd at least sleep so that Casey could put the duct tape on her, and then Casey just left her there? I mean, with her little arms restrained, she wouldn't be able to move much after waking up anyway. And maybe Casey was clumsy and spilled a bunch of chloroform in the trunk, so that would account for the high levels? I've often wondered if the chloroform wasn't to keep her asleep for a long period of time, just long enough so Caylee wouldn't struggle and Casey could get the duct tape on her a lot more easily. I am still stymied by the amount of chloroform in her trunk, though!

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(respectfully snipped)

How did ICA get away with putting an awake Caylee in the trunk? Wouldn't she have fought like crazy/screamed NO MAMA!? (Their neighbors notice stuff, IYKWIM) Wouldn't it have been a PITA to try to duct tape Caylee (or anyone) bent over a chloroformy trunk? And why do this when she had a nice, private bedroom at home to use? Heck she had the whole house to herself once GA went to work.

I can see she may have used chloroform on Caylee in the privacy of GA/CA's house - I do not see her doing this anywhere in public. Same with the duct tape - there's just no explaining duct tape wrapped around a toddler's head if anyone had walked by.

Did ICA try dosing Caylee prior to duct taping her? Did she dump a boatload of chloroform in the trunk when she placed Caylee back there with her little face wrapped in duct tape or did she pour her concoction in the trunk hoping to remove the stain/odor that remained after Caylee had been dumped? (some websites state it's current use as a spot remover / dry-cleaning agent). Maybe she thought the odor/stain would ''magically disappear'' as the solution dried! Imagine her surprise when first, the car was gone before she retrieved it from Amscot and second, CA carrying on about the horrendous smell that must have gotten much worse in the 17 days it was gone!

Just like you, I wonder about all these possibilities and I don't think we'll ever know the answer unless ICA decides to tell - then what could we believe? She lies just to hear herself talk!

Here is Valhall's comments on yesterday's decisions by HHJP.

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/2011/04/27/caylee-anthony-case-heart-hair-hounds-in/

Guess what else is in!!!! WOOHOO!!!

04/27/2011 Order Denying
Motion to Exclude Unreliable Evidence Pursuant to FRYE or in the Alternative, Motion in Limine to Exclude (Chloroform)

YEAH Another Great Day For Caylee!!!!

It just keeps getting better! I love seeing all the "DENY" in the dockets!

Oh my...I am in shock! .. I had my doubts.. Can we get a woot woot!
Fab-u-luss!!!!!
This trial will be action packed.. Yeah for CAYLEE!!

Now what, Mistah Baez? :waitasec:

Aedrys said:

Guess what else is in!!!! WOOHOO!!!

04/27/2011 Order Denying
Motion to Exclude Unreliable Evidence Pursuant to FRYE or in the Alternative, Motion in Limine to Exclude (Chloroform)

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CHLOROFORM IS IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:great:
:rocker:

I am so happy. I was really wondering about this one. Wow. This is so awesome for justice for Caylee! I can't wait to see what HHJP says in his ruling!!!