NM NM - Patty Pritz, 14, & Mattie Restine, 13, Carlsbad, 11 Aug 1961 - #1

Legacy said:

The girls were found laying 50 feet apart, the women in the 1957 triple homicide were found approximately 24 feet apart. (Post #63)

Click to expand...

The crimes are strikingly similar. The women were shot, the truckdriver at the scene and the women were abducted and found in a field miles away. There are other similarities.

TOM BEYER said:

I am just trying to figure out why the murderer would go to all of the trouble of driving 12 miles out of town, carefully placing the bodies on the ground, but not burying them. It's still possible that the perp may have been somewhat familiar with the area, but still placed the bodies in an area where they would be found (not immediately, but eventually). Many Websleuthers give murderers too much credit - they are not that smart, they do things out of convenience, and won't make huge efforts to cover their tracks. But Finder50 may be correct (& makes a good argument), that the killer was not familar with area.

Click to expand...

Tom, that all depends on the caliber of killer. Sexual predators are a class apart. Their murders are usually premeditated, and they know where they're going to kill or dump the bodies before hand. Usually they're of higher intelligence, but still from a blue collar background on average. They don't make huge efforts to cover their tracks, they try not to leave evidence behind so there aren't any tracks to follow.


Don't get hung up on phrases like "carefully placed." That wording came from Estrada IIRC, and who came along years after the fact. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Patty was the one to fold her own clothes. I will always believe she did that because she knew she was about to die, and was trying to stall her own death.

It's interesting. I have heard of killers who go crazy if the bodies of their victims aren't discovered. It seems unlikely the girls' bodies would've been discovered so soon. I mean, what are the odds? Unless there was a stock tank or windmill in that pasture, it's unlikely there would have been live stock in it, and if not, there's no reason for the owner to check the pasture regularly.

It looks to me like WDB couldn't rest until those bodies were found. I still think he was the perp, and not his son, and I think he was driving his son's car, and that's why his son and the car were sent to Texas that same night. After all, he had been working on his son's car that day, and it's quite possible that his son had borrowed his dad's car in place of his own, and hadn't returned it.

Legacy said:

The crimes are strikingly similar. The women were shot, the truckdriver at the scene and the women were abducted and found in a field miles away. There are other similarities.

Click to expand...

Legacy, that's what I thought, but just wasn't sure if I remembered right. I personally think the same perp was good for both crimes.

One thing I have wondered about is why was that gas station there on 137 & the Artesia Hwy. Is it because that road went to Carlsbad Caverns or some other reason?

I wonder if we can get a location on all the mines in the area that were being worked at the time of the murders. I'd like to know if there were any close by the crime scene. Would it have been common for someone living in Artesia to work in a mine in or near Carlsbad? Does anyone know which mine WDB worked at?

Hi gang. I'm the new kid on the hunt here so let me give you a tiny bit of info about me.

First, I grew up in Artesia and like Finder have hunted and fished all over Eddy County. I was just starting my sophomore year in college at ENMU when these murders happened and I never forgot them. I went on to become a school teacher in Lovington and ultimately a police officer in the city. Finally ended up in Texas as patrol pilot. And that's probably all that's relevant about me. But I know Carlsbad pretty well and even dated a girl from there when I was in high school.

Anyway, I bring a bit of a different perspective. I don't claim I'm right about anything and respect the wealth of ideas put forth before me. Now let me toss out a few of my thoughts for you to chew on.

First, I think maybe too much thought has been given to these crimes from only the victim's point of view. I try to close my eyes and get in the heads of everyone...the killer's...the cops...the witnesses...whatever. Here are some random thoughts relating to some of the comments put forth in this thread.

1. The murder scene/dump site. I believe it was genuinely the murder scene for the reasons I've stated below.

2. I do not think the murder scene was preselected. A dumber location would have been hard to find and Eddy County is a paradise for places to hide or bury bodies. I think there was a growing panic in the killer's mind. He has already abducted two young girls, beat one of both of them into some sort of submission. He has already raped Patty, I suspect. He knows he must kill them to hide his crime and perhaps he has some vague idea where he wants to do it. But each tick of the clock he is getting more nervous. Each tick of the clock things are getting more dangerous for him. What if he's stopped? What if one of the girls does something crazy? He's told them he'll turn them loose if they obey but he knows they are starting to doubt him. They must be feeling desperate enough to try anything. He's got to get rid of them and fast.

He turns down the Sitting Bull Falls road from the Artesia highway. He drives .7 of a mile, possibly arguing with the girls each foot of the way. Then he sees the little dirt road leading north into absolute nothingness of the New Mexico night. No houses. No vehicles. Nothing but the little road and grease wood. Perfect, he thinks and turns off on this road.

He drives another half mile down this bumpy track thinking that he is really getting away from all possibility of discovery. At last he stops, turns his headlights to the east and marches both girls out in front where he can see them. He murders them and starts back to the car for Patty's clothes. Was he going to try to dress her, put the clothes by her or what? Who knows.

This is when he gets his first big shock. The car comes into view right through his headlights as they shine out towards the Artesia highway. (Witness)

He panics. Little did he know that he had simply driven parallel to the highway and was easily in view. The next car could be state police.

So he throws Patty's clothes in the air and runs for his car for a panic return to Carlsbad. That's how I see the murder happening.

3. Someone questioned why the WB went fishing just at dusk. Easy answer. Night time is the best time to fish the Pecos River. The main fish on the river is catfish and most of their feeding is done at night. So leaving for fishing at dusk make perfect sense. Many people go out and fish all night. Frankly, a better question is "Why didn't they fish longer after going to the trouble and paying money to get there?"

4. Police cover-up. I'm going to be in the minority here and say as an ex-cop I don't believe it. Cops come in all flavors like anything else but few are crooked or up for any serious cover-up. They let a fellow officer slide if they catch him driving a little fast. They send him home if they catch him after a drink or two. But that's about it. Do anything more serious than this and most cops will throw a fellow officer in the slammer. When I was a cop we found the chief screwed up and hired an officer from Texas where there was a warrant for him writing hot checks. We arrested him and threw him in jail so fast he never knew what hit him. The vast majority of cops are serious about right and wrong...even the lazy ones.

What many here see as police cover-up, I see as bungling incompetence. You have to understand the times in 1961. When I became a cop, I was handed a badge and some uniforms and told to report for work that night. Another officer rode with me a few hours and he was dumber than dirt and a total coward. Happily he was the one leaving that I was replacing and the next day he told the chief I was "good to go" just so he could get away from me. That was my training and this was six years AFTER the girls were murdered. Serious police training was non-existent back then. So it naturally followed that these murders were a tragic parade of errors that would make any properly trained officer today fall over in a dead faint.

Carlsbad is not New York or L.A. Carlsbad will always be plagued by poorly trained, inexperienced officers. I think if they have anything to hide, it is their own internal weakness. The result of all this has been tragic for the Restines. This case was once, I think, very solvable. Today I despair.:furious:

Anyway, I'll kick out more of my screwy thoughts as I have them.

Can anyone tell me about the ECSO officer Jim Estrada who worked on this murder case in 1973? He's the only one who seems to have made the right moves or known what he was doing. Why did he retire near the end? Age? Health? Other?

Pecos45 said:

Hi gang. I'm the new kid on the hunt here so let me give you a tiny bit of info about me.

First, I grew up in Artesia and like Finder have hunted and fished all over Eddy County. I was just starting my sophomore year in college at ENMU when these murders happened and I never forgot them. I went on to become a school teacher in Lovington and ultimately a police officer in the city. Finally ended up in Texas as patrol pilot. And that's probably all that's relevant about me. But I know Carlsbad pretty well and even dated a girl from there when I was in high school.

Anyway, I bring a bit of a different perspective. I don't claim I'm right about anything and respect the wealth of ideas put forth before me. Now let me toss out a few of my thoughts for you to chew on.

First, I think maybe too much thought has been given to these crimes from only the victim's point of view. I try to close my eyes and get in the heads of everyone...the killer's...the cops...the witnesses...whatever. Here are some random thoughts relating to some of the comments put forth in this thread.

1. The murder scene/dump site. I believe it was genuinely the murder scene for the reasons I've stated below.

2. I do not think the murder scene was preselected. A dumber location would have been hard to find and Eddy County is a paradise for places to hide or bury bodies. I think there was a growing panic in the killer's mind. He has already abducted two young girls, beat one of both of them into some sort of submission. He has already raped Patty, I suspect. He knows he must kill them to hide his crime and perhaps he has some vague idea where he wants to do it. But each tick of the clock he is getting more nervous. Each tick of the clock things are getting more dangerous for him. What if he's stopped? What if one of the girls does something crazy? He's told them he'll turn them loose if they obey but he knows they are starting to doubt him. They must be feeling desperate enough to try anything. He's got to get rid of them and fast.

He turns down the Sitting Bull Falls road from the Artesia highway. He drives .7 of a mile, possibly arguing with the girls each foot of the way. Then he sees the little dirt road leading north into absolute nothingness of the New Mexico night. No houses. No vehicles. Nothing but the little road and grease wood. Perfect, he thinks and turns off on this road.

He drives another half mile down this bumpy track thinking that he is really getting away from all possibility of discovery. At last he stops, turns his headlights to the east and marches both girls out in front where he can see them. He murders them and starts back to the car for Patty's clothes. Was he going to try to dress her, put the clothes by her or what? Who knows.

This is when he gets his first big shock. The car comes into view right through his headlights as they shine out towards the Artesia highway. (Witness)

He panics. Little did he know that he had simply driven parallel to the highway and was easily in view. The next car could be state police.

So he throws Patty's clothes in the air and runs for his car for a panic return to Carlsbad. That's how I see the murder happening.

3. Someone questioned why the WB went fishing just at dusk. Easy answer. Night time is the best time to fish the Pecos River. The main fish on the river is catfish and most of their feeding is done at night. So leaving for fishing at dusk make perfect sense. Many people go out and fish all night. Frankly, a better question is "Why didn't they fish longer after going to the trouble and paying money to get there?"

4. Police cover-up. I'm going to be in the minority here and say as an ex-cop I don't believe it. Cops come in all flavors like anything else but few are crooked or up for any serious cover-up. They let a fellow officer slide if they catch him driving a little fast. They send him home if they catch him after a drink or two. But that's about it. Do anything more serious than this and most cops will throw a fellow officer in the slammer. When I was a cop we found the chief screwed up and hired an officer from Texas where there was a warrant for him writing hot checks. We arrested him and threw him in jail so fast he never knew what hit him. The vast majority of cops are serious about right and wrong...even the lazy ones.

What many here see as police cover-up, I see as bungling incompetence. You have to understand the times in 1961. When I became a cop, I was handed a badge and some uniforms and told to report for work that night. Another officer rode with me a few hours and he was dumber than dirt and a total coward. Happily he was the one leaving that I was replacing and the next day he told the chief I was "good to go" just so he could get away from me. That was my training and this was six years AFTER the girls were murdered. Serious police training was non-existent back then. So it naturally followed that these murders were a tragic parade of errors that would make any properly trained officer today fall over in a dead faint.

Carlsbad is not New York or L.A. Carlsbad will always be plagued by poorly trained, inexperienced officers. I think if they have anything to hide, it is their own internal weakness. The result of all this has been tragic for the Restines. This case was once, I think, very solvable. Today I despair.:furious:

Anyway, I'll kick out more of my screwy thoughts as I have them.

Click to expand...

Pecos, I agree with your thoughts but have a couple of questions about the scenario that you present. This is a question that I have had since I started reading all the postings; if the girls were alive when they got to the road leading to the murder/dump site why didn't they jump out and run when the murderer had to get out to open the wire gate? As you know those wire gates are never easy to open or shut and none of the reports indicate that the girls' hands and feet were bound. Maybe they were just to scared to run. I totally agree with you that the site was not planned and the murderer just took the first trail that he came to after leaving the main highway.

I also question the August 13th fishing trip. From WDB's statement they didn't get away until 9:30 a.m. and they were at Hamilton's Station at around noon. This means they only fished for around an hour and a half if that long. I have friends who are fishermen and they will sit out in the hot sun (and by noon in August it really hot) all day long. Then again most of them would have been fishing by 6:30 or 7:00 a.m. and they for sure wouldn't have been shooting turtles at the fishing hole.

Lastly, I think one of the most significant pieces of information has been skipped over and that is 8/8/61 diary entry: "David called and I called David". I would have thought that LE would have wanted to identify and talk to anyone having contact with the girls in and around the time of the murder. I think this is important since an earlier entry states that they were in Don's car and David's mother came out, which indicates that they were at David's parents' house. As an investigator I would be extremely interested in who one of the girl's was seeing or had a romanic interest in, especially since they were abducted on a Friday night.

I guess the other thing that keeps running through my mind is, if you became aware of the fact that your son had just raped and beaten a young girl, and you knew that there was no way you were going to be able to cover it up or hide it. And, year earlier your husband had been accused of molesting two young girls, and you remember the accusatory looks, comments, and disgrace that this brought on your family. Could that person stand in front of two girls, look them in the face and shoot them? Whoever, did this had to be cold-blooded beyond belief and not have a soul.

Pecos45,

What do you think about the supposed suicide of Detective McGrew, working in his office late at night? I can't imagine that anyone in LE would choose to shoot themselves in the chest vs placing the gun upside their head. Now that I think about it though, SS1950 did say McGrew was a good looking man, so maybe he was worried about his looks.

I would've thought the county would have insisted on an autopsy being done since it was an unnatural death regardless. Also seems like there would've been several newspaper articles about his untimely death.

As for the fishing, I was married to a fisherman and hunter, and I've done plenty of both. My question was the amount of time between dusk and 9:00PM when they quit fishing. How much time elapsed between dusk and 9:00PM? Did it get dark at 8PM? Someone said there was no daylight savings time back then so wouldn't it have been dark at 8PM?

I agree the crime scene location was dumb on the part of the killer because of the proximity to the Artesia Hwy, but I question whether this suggests someone not all that familiar with the area or just someone with no sense of direction.

Also, it was my understanding some of Patty's clothes had been folded, and neatly placed either on the ground or on a rock, and that it was her undergarments that had been strewn about. And then there are those extra marks on her body suggestive of sexual sadism.

Good questions and comments, Finder. I think the more all of us make one another THINK, the better we can uncover some answers or new places to look.

First, the gate to the murder scene. Does anyone know for sure if there was a gate in 1961? Maybe it was a cattle guard instead. My feeling is there was a gate but maybe not. That area where the bodies were left is about as worthless for livestock as can be found. Mostly barren, rocky ground with grease wood/creosote bush all over it is the way I remember it and cattle don't eat that stuff. Rabbits don't much like it either for that matter.

Anyway, the gate is immaterial in my mind. Keep in mind it is dark and forbidding outside. You are a 13 or 14 year old girl and you are scared to death. In Patty's case you may have already been beaten and you are naked, even shoeless. The man who has taken you out there is bigger, stronger and can surely outrun you. If you try, he will surely catch you and beat you bad. Maybe he has already shown you the gun and promised to kill you if you try. On the other hand I suspect he has lied and told you he just wants to get you a ways out of town and turn you loose so he has time to get away. "Be good and I won't hurt you," is his lie.

As Patty and Mattie sit there in the car while he opens the gate it's hard to imagine the stunned terror they felt. All of Eddy County couldn't believe anyone could/would take two little girls out like this and kill them. I doubt Patty and Mattie sat there and thought, "He's going to kill us." Or if they had reached the obvious conclusion, they were simply too stunned to do anything about it. Most of six million Jews didn't believe the Germans would kill them either. We have all done stupid, dangerous things in our lives because we couldn't imagine ourselves getting killed doing it. I know I've gotten myself into some situations that I was lucky to have survived simply because I couldn't imagine myself any other way but ALIVE.

So I think the poor little girls sat there like terrified rabbits. Neither had ever seen this sort of cruelty. Neither could imagine what was ahead.

We say that the murder location wasn't planned and I don't believe it was either. This whole crime was, of course, a crime of opportunity. Fate just seems to present you with two girls one night and one way or the other you get them into your car. And from there the die is cast.

HOWEVER, humans are creatures of habit. Why go north from Carlsbad? Why turn off on Sitting Bull Falls Road? WDB says in his statement that he went out there to fish. He knew some things about the area. It stands to reason that so did his son. I've been out that road many times and even gone on school science trips to the Rocky Arroyo area. It's wild country and gets really wild and lonely farther along. Could THIS have been the intended murder site but the girls were becoming crazy with fear and a problem? So you figured you better get rid of them while you could? Certainly at night all that country out there looks like the end of the earth. Such are my thoughts about the chosen spot.

You question the WDB fishing trip. I agree. It smells mighty suspicious. They didn't "fish" for long before they were out "discovering" bodies.:innocent: But WDB talks about other fishing trips where he didn't fish long. Maybe he is just the sort of guy who can't sit still at anything for long? Who knows? But his whole fishing trip story stinks.

I've thought a lot about the how/why WDB went to the murder scene. What part did Melton play? Why on earth would WDB report the murder to the police if he did it or knew about it? Why would he take Melton with him to the scene?

Did I read here that WDB wore a size 13 boot and the tracks around the murder site were size 7 1/2? Did I read here that the day before the bodies were "discovered" WDB spent most of his time working on his son's car? Hmmm. Was he working on the car or helping his son clean the car of evidence? Did I read that DB wore size 7 1/2 boot? Hmmmm. What a nice family. The father tries to molest two young girls and now perhaps like father, like son David has tried the same stunt only this time one is raped and killed. Help me Dad. Help me. These are rotten people like none of us can imagine...or so it seems to me.

Why then the "fishing trip?" I think good old dad went out there to check and make sure his son didn't leave anything behind. Meanwhile at home David is told to get out of town, out of state FAST. A good question for BB is "When did David tell you he was leaving town?" I suspect David's departure was a surprise to her.

But back to WDB and Melton's fishing trip that somehow turned into a rabbit hunt and "discovery." Why did WDB take Melton along? Set him up for frame him? Get him involved? Possible, but I doubt it. I think Melton was just window dressing. He was brought along just to add some credibility to WDB's story of the "discovery." It would really look suspicious if WDB went out there and found the bodies by himself.

Or I can think of another possibility for Melton going along. Apparently he was about as sorry as WDB. Why else would they be friends? Melton certainly showed his character with the police and ECSO later. So maybe Melton went along with his pal WDB and they planned to bury the bodies or perhaps move them to better location. But when they reach the murder scene they discover just how sorry the location is. They discover they are visible from the highway! In fact, their car has likely already been scene by passing motorists!

Wow, things are getting complicated fast! Now they would be crazy to try and bury or move the bodies. They suspect they have been seen in broad daylight. The only thing they can do is check the scene quickly to see if DB left anything behind and then they have to get out of there. Worse, they realize that now that they have been seen, they must report the bodies to cover themselves. What a mess! Only LE bungling and slow, non-aggressive action will save them. Melton goes along with everything for whatever reason and doesn't give police the time of day.

I'd really like to do a background check on Melton and know his criminal history. I doubt he ever was a deacon in some church.:innocent:

I totally agree, Finder. Why on earth didn't the police find out WHO David was? Knowing who Patty was seeing is crucial to this case and the ECSO seems to have totally dropped the ball.

One final thought I've had about the murder. Why was Patty raped and Mattie not? I think there was only ONE killer. I think Patty was the target and Mattie just got in the way and had to be dealt with. Patty could be suckered into the car but Mattie couldn't be left behind to describe who she went with. Poor Mattie was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

From all I've read so far, I think the killer was DB. I think his wonderful father went out to try and cover his son's tracks. I think Melton was either a useful idiot or had agreed to help his friend WDB cover up.

DNA comparison from traces left on Patty and one of the Blairs would, I believe, settle this case in a hurry.

The thing that blows my mind about this whole story is the cast of characters who have claimed to have committed the crime or know who did. People are almost lined up to say, "I did it." Or claim, "I know who did."

Maybe this is normal for a case like this. There are always idiots wanting their 15 minutes of fame. And what's aggravating is Eddy County is so wide open and sparsely populated that some of these people COULD have done it.

Records are poor of what was and was not done. I think the whole crime will go down in history as a classic way to MIS-handle a murder investigation. And there is enough shame and blame to go around all the way from the FBI on down.

Obviously some of the officers involved in this crime worked very hard with the limited tools at their disposal while some soon lost interest or were simply to lazy to much care. But every chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

justthinkin said:

Pecos45,

What do you think about the supposed suicide of Detective McGrew, working in his office late at night? I can't imagine that anyone in LE would choose to shoot themselves in the chest vs placing the gun upside their head. Now that I think about it though, SS1950 did say McGrew was a good looking man, so maybe he was worried about his looks.

I would've thought the county would have insisted on an autopsy being done since it was an unnatural death regardless. Also seems like there would've been several newspaper articles about his untimely death.

As for the fishing, I was married to a fisherman and hunter, and I've done plenty of both. My question was the amount of time between dusk and 9:00PM when they quit fishing. How much time elapsed between dusk and 9:00PM? Did it get dark at 8PM? Someone said there was no daylight savings time back then so wouldn't it have been dark at 8PM?

I agree the crime scene location was dumb on the part of the killer because of the proximity to the Artesia Hwy, but I question whether this suggests someone not all that familiar with the area or just someone with no sense of direction.

Also, it was my understanding some of Patty's clothes had been folded, and neatly placed either on the ground or on a rock, and that it was her undergarments that had been strewn about. And then there are those extra marks on her body suggestive of sexual sadism.

Click to expand...

JT, certainly I don't have all or even ANY of the answers and can only speak from my own kooky imaginings. With that disclaimer, I totally agree Det. McGrew's suicide is strange. Shooting himself in the chest is really strange, especially with his pistol. An autopsy should have been automatic. Who knows what else was going on in McGrew's life. This is something his fellow officers were likely to cover up. Reasoning being why air the poor dead guy's dirty laundry. A lot of cops are "ladies' men" or become that way because women pursue them. Women made several plays for me when I was a cop but it had the opposite effect on me and only made me mad that they thought I was that shallow.:furious: After awhile word got out to "leave that one alone." But McGrew sure could have been a "ladies' man." One reason or another that may have been the reason for his suicide.

I've wondered, "Was there a note?" If not, perhaps the "suicide" may have just been McGrew just got careless and shot himself.

Serious lack of information about this issue.

Fishing time? I would guess that time of year it got dark around 8:00 PM...maybe a bit before. One of our Carlsbad residents can probably give very accurate answer.

Murder location? My guess is poor sense of direction and it's very easy to get disoriented driving around in the dark. I think the killer was shocked when he realized how close to the Artesia highway he was.

Patty's clothes: Yep, that's puzzling. Disorganized killer? Patty stalling? Both possible. Or if WDB and Melton went out to clean up the site, maybe one of them started gathering the clothes. Some FOLDED is the strange part. But if I had just murdered someone, I might do goofy things as well. I don't know.

Sexual sadism? I don't see it as that. I think if the killer were a sexual sadist the wounds would have been much worse and more "creative." I see them as just an act of rage or control because Patty gave him trouble. Or since I think Patty was the target, maybe the wounds on her were punishment for something she did or didn't do. JMHO.

Can someone direct me to the entry of Patty's diary? Post #?? I seem to have overlooked or missed it.

Pecos45, WD Blair wore a 7 1/2 sized shoe as noted in the case file.

From everything I've seen, Melton and Blair didn't appear to be friends, had never done anything together prior to the day they found the bodies. Originally, I thought Melton was just window dressing too, but then that business about him refusing to do a polygraph if he had to miss work or miss out on his leisure time seems to be saying he has some involvement in this at some level.

DB knew Patty. I think if he was the perp he would've gotten the girls in his car then offered them some booze or suggested they go out to a remote place to drink, even if he had murder on his mind. He was only 20 yrs. old himself. Hard to imagine if this was a first murder, he'd take on two girls at once.

Perhaps the girls thought they were joy riding, and later an argument ensued between David and Patty, and David retrieved the gun from under the seat.

It was the day of the murders that Blair worked on his son's car.

JT - I have read so much, so fast here that some of my facts may indeed be muddled. I sincerely apologize if I have added to what is already a confusing and complex case.

As soon as I can find time and eyesight, I'll read back again and try to find where I got my notions.

As for DB being 20. That doesn't worry me. History has plenty of young killers. What raises the flags about DB in my mind is his sudden departure from town and the fact it appears Patty new him. From BB's account of DB, he is certainly violent and unstable enough to be good for anything.

No need to apologize, I've gotten a few things mixed up myself. It's a lot to read in a short time and absorb it all.

There were two others who left town in a hurry, one was the Nichols fellow, the other Keith Bunnell, who supposedly witnessed the girls abduction. He cut his trip short by a week, and left the day after giving his statement to LE. I've wondered about that guy. He was 37 and a former Carlsbad resident.

Pecos45 said:

Can someone direct me to the entry of Patty's diary? Post #?? I seem to have overlooked or missed it.

Click to expand...

Pecos45 that would be page 6...post 141. The Eddy County Sheriff's Department told me the other day the diary is not among the evidence now. I'm so worried everything will just disappear. I'm trying to find out if that diary was there when Investigator Estrada started working on the case.

Pecos45 said:

Can anyone tell me about the ECSO officer Jim Estrada who worked on this murder case in 1973? He's the only one who seems to have made the right moves or known what he was doing. Why did he retire near the end? Age? Health? Other?

Click to expand...

Investigator Estrada started working on the case off and on in 1999. He along with another investigator worked the case until this other investigator became sick with cancer. After that Estrada selected a group of students to work on the case with him. THere were about 6 of these students. The identity of these students was never known.
Estrada told me in Sept. of 2003 that he was going to retire in NOvember 2004. Before that happened he was put on administrative leave...until his retirement date came around. I don't know what happened to cause that leave...nor did I call him and ask. I just felt awful for him and of course for any hopes of this case ever being solved as well. During this time he also went through a divorce...I know what happened on that but I don't feel like that should be put on here. I haven't had any contact with Estrada since February of 2004.
I have to say I felt like Estrada did a great job with what he was allowed to do. He was very professional in the manner he handle the case with my family. I have to also say...I appreciated the fact he talked to my dad about the case...treated him with respect and told him he work on the case and solve it if possible. My father died in March 2004. He didn't live to see this mess it's in now...but I can say my father went to his grave with some peace of mind and hope that his little girls killer would be caught.

Pecos45 said:

JT - I have read so much, so fast here that some of my facts may indeed be muddled. I sincerely apologize if I have added to what is already a confusing and complex case.

As soon as I can find time and eyesight, I'll read back again and try to find where I got my notions.

As for DB being 20. That doesn't worry me. History has plenty of young killers. What raises the flags about DB in my mind is his sudden departure from town and the fact it appears Patty new him. From BB's account of DB, he is certainly violent and unstable enough to be good for anything.

Click to expand...

If I can add to what SS1950 said, she said the last time she talked to Estrada, the only people he was willing to talk to about the case was the FBI.

Sunshine 1950 said:

Pecos45 that would be page 6...post 141. The Eddy County Sheriff's Department told me the other day the diary is not among the evidence now. I'm so worried everything will just disappear. I'm trying to find out if that diary was there when Investigator Estrada started working on the case.

Click to expand...

This is just MORE mind boggling news SS. This whole thing would be funny if it weren't real and tragic. I think if this case were written into a screenplay it would be rejected as "unbelievable."

Rather than covering up for anyone in Carlsbad, I think the "cover-up" has been to hide the incompetence and inefficiency of the ECSO. Rather than fix their problems...it's cheaper just to hide them.:banghead:

Pecos45 said:

This is just MORE mind boggling news SS. This whole thing would be funny if it weren't real and tragic. I think if this case were written into a screenplay it would be rejected as "unbelievable."

Rather than covering up for anyone in Carlsbad, I think the "cover-up" has been to hide the incompetence and inefficiency of the ECSO. Rather than fix their problems...it's cheaper just to hide them.:banghead:

Click to expand...

You have a good point, Pecos45, most rural LE forces are ill-equipped when it comes to handling murder cases. They contaminate the crime scene, bungle evidence, jump to conclusions, and overlook things that shouldn't be overlooked.

I lived in a small town where 4 people were murdered, 3 of them from the same family & all older adults, 2 were grandparents, one a great-grandparent. Anyone with a lick of sense would realize those 3 people were dead because someone else in the family was tired of waiting for their inheritance. But did LE ever figure that out? Not by a long shot. They had guys all over that crime scene contaminating evidence. Why? Because it was the biggest thing they'd ever had to deal with, and they all wanted to be in on it. They waited to call the FBI because they were determined to handle it. By the time they did call the FBI in, the FBI said they'd spoiled the crime scene.

Now the local LE has buried the case because it's an embarrassment to them. They never did look at the one person, in depth, whom I believe committed this crime because that person was an upstanding citizen in the community. He was a blood relative of 3 of the people, and I don't care how upstanding he was, he stood to gain the most from their deaths.

I'm relating this just to offer another example of ineptitude on the part of rural LE depts.

We can see from the photographs that far too many people were out there at the crime scene of Mattie and Patty's murders, and most without gloves, handling evidence or rather contaminating it.

justthinkin said:

If I can add to what SS1950 said, she said the last time she talked to Estrada, the only people he was willing to talk to about the case was the FBI.

Click to expand...

That's what the man said. And we all know what the FBI said....out of their jurisidiction.

I am a little concerned with the police "writing off" the Nichols tip, without additional investigation. I understand the police have talked to the Nichols family, but simply discounted it as being irrelevant?

There comes a point when a tip is received that it becomes the police department's responsibility to investigate and document that investigation. The conversations that the police had with the Nichols family should certainly have corresponding records on file, so whoever gets this case "next" will have access to the information obtained. If they talked to the elderly Nichols daughter before she passed away, I hope they recorded the conversation (as is customary) and have transcribed the conversation word for word.

To simply ignore a tip is incomprehensible, or to take it upon oneself to not document it in the case file is verging on dereliction. None of us knows who the killer is, so every possible angle should be looked at. Otherwise, it will simply get nowhere and we can debate from now on.

Real police work needs to happen at some point. The kind that allows access to all sorts of records and to people that none of us have, or would be able to disclose if we did. The registration of the vehicle Nichols owned needs to be traced. Social security records need to be reviewed to see where he was working when. If he worked side jobs without reporting income, the family needs to be engaged in a spirit of cooperation in the process of rebuilding a history of where their father/grandfather was over the years.

And this is just for Nichols. All standard investigation techniques need to be administered to each of the suspects in this case, or by questioning of their families if they are no longer living.

Nichols age might not fit the "norm," but it is possible that he was the killer. I read the obituary of his daughter online. This was a fine, church-going, long-standing member of the community where she lived, who struggled with this probably more than we know over the years. It took real courage for her to come forward and to simply be "written off" by the investigators is a true travesty.

If we're taking a poll, my gut feeling is still Nichols. He was at the beach watching the young people from the shadows. He came home the next morning with scratches on his face and left hurriedly. He got rid of the car he was driving very shortly thereafter. And probably most important - the fact that his family indicated that Nichols had shared "something" that no one but the killer of the girls would have known. Nichols was never even brought up as a suspect that we know of until many years later. This was a closely guarded horrible family secret - one that they tried to make right before his daughter passed away by bringing their suspicions forward.

There are other noteworthy suspects here, but the fact that Nichols traveled around and fled from someplace in California after he tried to molest a young girl at a place he worked only adds to my suspicions that if you follow Nichols' trail, you might uncover more gruesome history.

I can see now why the sense of urgency about getting the Nichols to videotape the daughter's recollection hit me so hard when I posted on the 3rd of October begging that it be done right away. Unfortunately, she died the following day. The good news is that the granddaughter should be able to continue with this, as she would have also been living at the time the girls were murdered.