1996

[daisydaisy]

OK so far so good but I noticed you omitted the threats themselves that could help in this charaterization.

"...will result in the immediate execution of your daughter."
"...will result in your daughter being beheaded."

Literally, Who talks like this? Who uses these words? What would their job/role be?

Literally, how do you interpret this next line? What does it mean? Does it add to or subtract from the elements of terrorism?

"You're not the only fat cat around, so don't think that killing will be difficult."

That's what I'm trying to figure out!

Just from a layman's perspective, words like "execution" and "beheaded" certainly take it to another level of "scariness." It's not just, "Give us the money, and she'll be fine. Don't...and she won't." The note throws out a few very graphic, violent, and emotionally-provoking terms, in my opinion. I've tried to find other "famous" ransom notes online to compare language. There are examples from real kidnappings, staged kidnappings, terrorist activity, and movies. (I haven't compiled everything yet, and that probably goes in a more RN-related thread anyway...)

"Fat Cat" is interesting, because I think of it as more of an American--sometimes British--term that wouldn't be used by too wide a variety of "foreign" citizens. Maybe I'm wrong...but just guessing. Does anyone know? Just in my own interpretation, I think the sentiment is, "You think you're so important and powerful, don't you? Well, so are we...don't make us show you what we can do." That's why I was curious about the climate at AG in 1996 and any enemies; it's an attempt to take JR down a notch--in the most extreme way.

Again, the issue for me is, did someone really get pushed to the brink by JR's success or his involvement in something, resulting in the writing of the note and the commission of the crime? Or, did it seem like a "believable" excuse for a motive, considering AG had just passed the "billion $$ mark," resulting in a $118,000 bonus for JR?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

"...will result in the immediate execution of your daughter."
"...will result in your daughter being beheaded."

Literally, Who talks like this? Who uses these words? What would their job/role be?


Literally, how do you interpret this next line? What does it mean? Does it add to or subtract from the elements of terrorism?

"You're not the only fat cat around, so don't think that killing will be difficult."

If I am reading the rn from the Ramsey's perspective and I had nothing to do with the death of my daughter, these statements are the scariest things that I have ever read in my life. It's that simple. Don't you think?
It does not matter who really wrote them, terrorist or simple kidnap for ransom, they are direct threats to kill my daughter and my daughter is gone from her bed. So why would I then do everything that they asked me not to? That was the question that I thought I was asking in my earlier post. As for the "fat cat" line, it would have only been intended to drive home the earlier threats, correct? To let John know that there are people who are bigger and badder than him?
One of my points is that if you believe the parents were a part of this in any capacity, it is very hard to look at the rn with any credence. It's like three pages of pure hogwash. I know that if you believe they were not a part of this, the rn is the biggest piece of evidence there is, really. I'm not calling anyone out on their opinion, just asking for help in understanding it.

My questions didn't get answered here. Except maybe it seems you believe that the RN author wanted to be seen as another fat cat, and that 'killing wont be difficsult' refers to his daughter, is this right?

it is very hard to look at the rn with any credence. It's like three pages of pure hogwash.

This is a little bit like picking up a smoking gun at a murder crime scene and then insulting its quality. You simply don't know how effective the RN was at doing its job because you don't fully understand its role.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

"...will result in the immediate execution of your daughter."
"...will result in your daughter being beheaded."

Literally, Who talks like this? Who uses these words? What would their job/role be?


Literally, how do you interpret this next line? What does it mean? Does it add to or subtract from the elements of terrorism?

"You're not the only fat cat around, so don't think that killing will be difficult."

That's what I'm trying to figure out!

Just from a layman's perspective, words like "execution" and "beheaded" certainly take it to another level of "scariness." It's not just, "Give us the money, and she'll be fine. Don't...and she won't." The note throws out a few very graphic, violent, and emotionally-provoking terms, in my opinion. I've tried to find other "famous" ransom notes online to compare language. There are examples from real kidnappings, staged kidnappings, terrorist activity, and movies. (I haven't compiled everything yet, and that probably goes in a more RN-related thread anyway...)

"Fat Cat" is interesting, because I think of it as more of an American--sometimes British--term that wouldn't be used by too wide a variety of "foreign" citizens. Maybe I'm wrong...but just guessing. Does anyone know? Just in my own interpretation, I think the sentiment is, "You think you're so important and powerful, don't you? Well, so are we...don't make us show you what we can do." That's why I was curious about the climate at AG in 1996 and any enemies; it's an attempt to take JR down a notch--in the most extreme way.

Again, the issue for me is, did someone really get pushed to the brink by JR's success or his involvement in something, resulting in the writing of the note and the commission of the crime? Or, did it seem like a "believable" excuse for a motive, considering AG had just passed the "billion $$ mark," resulting in a $118,000 bonus for JR?

I guess you are saying that the RN author wanted to be seen as another fat cat. Thanks but still most of my questions dont' get answered here.

 

[daisydaisy]

I guess you are saying that the RN author wanted to be seen as another fat cat. Thanks but still most of my questions dont' get answered here.

Well, I just don't have all the answers! I can just give you my non-expert opinions. I tried, but maybe I wasn't so clear.

As to what type of person uses words like "executed" and "beheaded," I was trying to indicate that I think these are in line with a note from a terrorist faction. I wasn't old enough in 1996 to recall the climate at the time, but at least in more recent years, those actions could be associated with terrorist activity. I think such a person would want to appear to be in a position of power and control, which--for me--contrasts with the passive voice used. My only other interpretation is that the wording was used to put pressure on the Rs; their actions decide their daughter's fate. I don't have any ideas on a specific job, but I would be open to hearing ideas on that.

Yes, that's my interpretation of the use of "fat cat." But, like I said, I don't see it so much as being in line with the "foreign faction" or the beginning of the note. Therefore, for me, it actually subtracts from the elements of terrorism. But, if there was (for example) a U.S.-based group, who was familiar with the term, representing a foreign faction, that might be a different story.

It seems like you might have some different ideas about "fat cat" and "don't think killing will be difficult." I've always thought that wording was odd... In your opinion, are people unnecessarily assuming the author meant "killing [her/your daughter]"? You mention that the RN did its job really well, so I'm [genuinely] interested in hearing your take.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

These are a few of my observations/guesses (is that an 'opinion'?)

Bussiness - Business
Posession - Possession
Is that an 'pound' symbol instead of a $ in front of 18,000?
Adequte - Adequate
Bag - Sack
A ealier - An earlier
Darghter - (1st on page 2)
The caret inserting not between do and particularly is upside down
Scretiny or scutiny - Scrutiny

Some of the more difficult words look to have been spaced out as if the letters were written individually as you would if someone spelled them out for you.

I felt that the mixed slope might indicate the writer 'elevated' their writing hand, like say on a book, so they were moving their hand from side to side (so as not to leave prints?). The left side of the page is more backhand the right side forehand and the centre of the page is straight up and down. There seems to be more forehand than backhand, and very few if any backhand strokes on the right side of the page.

Just a gut feeling that the way 'fat cat' is written is closest to the 'usual' writing of the person. Short squat letters (and these are also in the t's in that underneath), joined by long U shapes. Women born around 1970's write like that here.

Observations are more timeless than opinions. I have to check out your elevated palm idea....

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Well, I just don't have all the answers! I can just give you my non-expert opinions. I tried, but maybe I wasn't so clear.

As to what type of person uses words like "executed" and "beheaded," I was trying to indicate that I think these are in line with a note from a terrorist faction. I wasn't old enough in 1996 to recall the climate at the time, but at least in more recent years, those actions could be associated with terrorist activity. I think such a person would want to appear to be in a position of power and control, which--for me--contrasts with the passive voice used. My only other interpretation is that the wording was used to put pressure on the Rs; their actions decide their daughter's fate. I don't have any ideas on a specific job, but I would be open to hearing ideas on that.

Yes, that's my interpretation of the use of "fat cat." But, like I said, I don't see it so much as being in line with the "foreign faction" or the beginning of the note. Therefore, for me, it actually subtracts from the elements of terrorism. But, if there was (for example) a U.S.-based group, who was familiar with the term, representing a foreign faction, that might be a different story.

It seems like you might have some different ideas about "fat cat" and "don't think killing will be difficult." I've always thought that wording was odd... In your opinion, are people unnecessarily assuming the author meant "killing [her/your daughter]"? You mention that the RN did its job really well, so I'm [genuinely] interested in hearing your take.

My interpretation:

"you're not the only fat cat around so dont think that killing [more fat cats] will be difficult."

I believe this interpretation is right because the RN author is identifying JR by means of a derrogatory term and then pointing out JR's not the only one. The RN author pluralized fat cats "not the only" and then used a plural form of kill "killing".

Your interpretation:

"you're not the only fat cat around [, I'm a fat cat too,] so don't think that killing [your daughter] will be difficult."

Equivalent expression: I find killing to be easy because, like you, I am a fat cat.

I believe this interpretation is wrong because there's nothing about being a fat cat that makes killing any more or less 'difficult.' Further, why would the RN author refer to himself using a derrogatory term?

Effectiveness of the RN:

Its absurd, illogical to tag the RN as bogus, staging within staging, a pack of lies, etc. without first knowing what its purpose was, and whether or not its purpose was met. Its like someone removes the garrote from the deep furrow around JBR's neck, right next to the petechial hemorrhages, and points out that the knots are amateurish and the whole thing is a prop. How stupid is that? How stupid do you think we are to believe that?

 

[DeeDee249]

I look at the note from the perspective of it being written AFTER she was killed. I has a different slant it that case.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I look at the note from the perspective of it being written AFTER she was killed. I has a different slant it that case.

What slant is that?

 

[daisydaisy]

My interpretation:

"you're not the only fat cat around so dont think that killing [more fat cats] will be difficult."

I believe this interpretation is right because the RN author is identifying JR by means of a derrogatory term and then pointing out JR's not the only one. The RN author pluralized fat cats "not the only" and then used a plural form of kill "killing".

Your interpretation:

"you're not the only fat cat around [, I'm a fat cat too,] so don't think that killing [your daughter] will be difficult."

Equivalent expression: I find killing to be easy because, like you, I am a fat cat.

I believe this interpretation is wrong because there's nothing about being a fat cat that makes killing any more or less 'difficult.' Further, why would the RN author refer to himself using a derrogatory term?

Effectiveness of the RN:

Its absurd, illogical to tag the RN as bogus, staging within staging, a pack of lies, etc. without first knowing what its purpose was, and whether or not its purpose was met. Its like someone removes the garrote from the deep furrow around JBR's neck, right next to the petechial hemorrhages, and points out that the knots are amateurish and the whole thing is a prop. How stupid is that? How stupid do you think we are to believe that?

We definitely disagree on the interpretation, but that's okay with me.

I'm associating "fat cat" more with power. It doesn't seem too far fetched, that when trying to assert dominance, a person would go so far as to refer to themselves as a technically derogatory term. "You think you're a [blank]? I'll show you a [blank]!" (Insert insult of your choice.) Just my opinion. I'm also interpreting "don't think killing will be difficult" as, "It's not like I care about who you are. You're not so special, and I'm not scared of you." Do you think the RN is more aimed at JR personally, with JBR unfortunately being the one who bears the brunt? JBR isn't a "fat cat," so who are the "other fat cats" the note is threatening?

I wouldn't go so far as to compare the claim of the note being bogus with a claim of the garrote being bogus. An autopsy report can verify the validity of the cause of death; it actually happened. Unless JBR was actually kidnapped, then killed (though not beheaded, as promised) when the Rs didn't follow directions and then returned to the house, the comparison is not the same to me. That's why I get confused or doubtful of the authenticity of the note; it doesn't seem like it tells the story of what actually seemed to happen. Do you think there's a reason for that?

 

[DeeDee249]

What slant is that?

That it is a fake- written to provide a reason for her to have been killed. Trying to cover all bases, it seems to implicate a business associate (who might know about the bonus amount) and foreign interests who are also somehow involved in or aware of his business. Why target JR's daughter is they "respect your business". If you're problem is with the US, target someone much more high-profile.
Also, if you look at the note, it seems that at first, it attempted to say we DON'T respect your business" and the "don't" part was scratched out. I think this is because the author knew not to point too specifically to a business associate because that would ultimately fail to produce evidence linking anyone like that to the crime.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

We definitely disagree on the interpretation, but that's okay with me.

I'm associating "fat cat" more with power. It doesn't seem too far fetched, that when trying to assert dominance, a person would go so far as to refer to themselves as a technically derogatory term. "You think you're a [blank]? I'll show you a [blank]!" (Insert insult of your choice.) Just my opinion. I'm also interpreting "don't think killing will be difficult" as, "It's not like I care about who you are. You're not so special, and I'm not scared of you." Do you think the RN is more aimed at JR personally, with JBR unfortunately being the one who bears the brunt? JBR isn't a "fat cat," so who are the "other fat cats" the note is threatening?

I wouldn't go so far as to compare the claim of the note being bogus with a claim of the garrote being bogus. An autopsy report can verify the validity of the cause of death; it actually happened. Unless JBR was actually kidnapped, then killed (though not beheaded, as promised) when the Rs didn't follow directions and then returned to the house, the comparison is not the same to me. That's why I get confused or doubtful of the authenticity of the note; it doesn't seem like it tells the story of what actually seemed to happen. Do you think there's a reason for that?

It would help to point out that the RN has commanding phrases and the revolutionary expression "Victory!" as a closing salutation. I decided that this was not unlike a socialist diatribe especially with not respecting this country. Most socialist countries do not respect the western capitalist system, while at the same time continuing to do business with its corporations. Further, the term 'fat cat' is the exact expression that has been historically used to describe a capitalist.

This idea obviously works with the expression 'you're not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult' where the fat cat is a capitalist, and the RN author is the socialist revolutionary disrespecting the country, who likes to end his letters with the expression Victory!

As soon as RDI has a better explanation for this closing salutation, thats when I'll consider another definition for 'fat cat'. RDI has no explanation for the fact that the RN is somewhat riddled with socialist ideologies.

Its time for some of us to grow up a little, and become more worldly in our search for JBR's killer.

 

[DeeDee249]

Only the author knows what was meant by the acronym S.B.T.C. or "Victory!"
But it could have been simply written to make the note sound like the SFF had their "victory" because they had JB.
But Patsy was well known to use acronyms in her correspondence, and she put periods in between the letters, a style that wasn't really done any more, but could have been something she learned studying journalism in college.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Only the author knows what was meant by the acronym S.B.T.C. or "Victory!"

How do you know?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Its time for some of us to grow up a little, and become more worldly in our search for JBR's killer.

But Patsy was well known to use acronyms in her correspondence, and she put periods in between the letters, a style that wasn't really done any more, but could have been something she learned studying journalism in college.

OK you're not becoming more worldy. Got it.

 

[DeeDee249]

How do you know?

I don't know- the author knows. The author knows why they wrote what they did, even if it had no particular meaning. Do you dispute this?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I don't know- the author knows. The author knows why they wrote what they did, even if it had no particular meaning. Do you dispute this?

You don't get it.

Only the author knows what was meant by the acronym S.B.T.C. or "Victory!"

How do YOU know that the RN author is the ONLY one who knows what Victory! and SBTC means?

 

[DeeDee249]

No. You don't get it.

How do YOU know that the RN author is the ONLY one who knows what Victory! and SBTC means?

OK- NOW I get it. You have a point. Whoever was with the author or dictated to the author would also know. If anyone else out there (SFF?) knew what it meant, they haven't come forward and terrorists usually do like to claim responsibility for their heinous acts.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

OK- NOW I get it. You have a point. Whoever was with the author or dictated to the author would also know. If anyone else out there (SFF?) knew what it meant, they haven't come forward and terrorists usually do like to claim responsibility for their heinous acts.

Not always. There have been many an attack where nobody claimed responsibility.

Besides SBTC could've been a claim of responsibility but recognized only by those who already knew what SBTC meant.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Comparing these lines from the report:
"-The term 'terrorism' means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant(1) targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.

-The term 'international terrorism' means terrorism involving citizens or the territory of more than one country." (U.S. Dept. of State)

...literally with this line from the RN, along with the threats:
-"We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We xx respect your bussiness but not the country that it serves."

...yes, I can say that in my personal opinion, the note, and subsequently the crime it describes, could be considered to contain elements/ideologies associated with terrorism.

If the RN is taken literally, as written, then:

...premeditated? Yes.
...politically motivated? Yes. The RN has a political theme.
...violence? Yes.
...perpetrated against noncombatant targets? Yes.
...by subnational groups? Yes. Small foreign faction is a subnational group.
...clandestine agents? Yes. Three. We have NO CLUE who the intruders were.
...influence an audience? Yes. RN has received a global audience.

Was the RN intended for an audience? Did the RN receive an audience? Who was the audience? How were they influenced?

Is it over? Can someone come forward and claim responsibility now? What would be the effect?

What else could've happened that we never considered?

 

[daisydaisy]

It would help to point out that the RN has commanding phrases and the revolutionary expression "Victory!" as a closing salutation. I decided that this was not unlike a socialist diatribe especially with not respecting this country. Most socialist countries do not respect the western capitalist system, while at the same time continuing to do business with its corporations. Further, the term 'fat cat' is the exact expression that has been historically used to describe a capitalist.

This idea obviously works with the expression 'you're not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult' where the fat cat is a capitalist, and the RN author is the socialist revolutionary disrespecting the country, who likes to end his letters with the expression Victory!

As soon as RDI has a better explanation for this closing salutation, thats when I'll consider another definition for 'fat cat'. RDI has no explanation for the fact that the RN is somewhat riddled with socialist ideologies.

Its time for some of us to grow up a little, and become more worldly in our search for JBR's killer.

So, how do you answer the question of why the note tells JR that killing "other fat cats" will not be difficult, but it never threatens to kill JR (the original "fat cat") in the first place? I'm still not sold on that interpretation, because that doesn't make sense to me.

Any group or individual trying to show their power (a contest of who is more powerful?) could use "Victory!" as a closing to show (like was already said) that they have "won." (Wasn't that the "I won!" term in Mortal Kombat, for example?) Several times, I've alluded to the question of whether the FBI or anyone else ever labeled the wording as indicative of a particular group, SFF or otherwise. No, it's not unlike socialist diatribe, but, to me, it's just a common word for declaring a win unless I'm shown a specific example of otherwise.

I don't dispute that there are socialist ideologies in the note; I never have. In my opinion, it's not fair to say, "It was written by a socialist. Unless you can prove that it's not, then RDI is not even worth looking at." Sociology 101 at any college would be more than enough to throw in some of these basic tenets. (Go ahead and call my reasoning circular, but this is what I believe.) The solution could be that simple or it could be more complex, but the point is that we don't know...so no one can say for sure either way. In your opinion, are there socialist ideologies in the note that are too advanced for a "copycat" or that would only be common knowledge to a true socialist? Which one(s)?

When it comes to working toward a solution for this crime, there is room here for everyone. If you want to "grow up" and look at different solutions, you should! The more information, the better. We have to look at all angles. Isn't RDI one of them?

P.S. When I first posted in this thread, it was to research the events of 1996 -- you know, the topic. So, why don't we get back to that?