2009.10.09 Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released

[KeyboardCat]

Hello again

I noticed this was asked one other time in this thread, but I'd like a little clarification.
There are numerous little holes near the ends of the duct tape (they look like pin pricks to me, but may be a mistake of my perception due to sizing.) Is anyone clear on what size samples the FBI took for testing, or where they obtained the samples from on the duct tape? In my mind, I can't see worthwhile samples for anything being obtained by poking holes. (Maybe a hole punch type of thing? Yes, I'm reaching here. But even then I'm not sure how it could leave the impressions/indentation of something poking from the non-sticky side of the tape toward the sticky side.) I apologize again, I am most likely overreacting... but knowing there was a syringe in that gatorade bottle nearby...

 

[JWG]

Say did you notice that the shurtape version of firegaurd without the cotton also has the shurtape logo? It got me to thinking about UL numbers. I am now going to look into see if there is some kind of requirement for labeling firegaurd types of tape. Maybe like, if your going to claim that your tape is fireproof, then you will have to label it.

Do you know anything about UL numbers? Is that Undrwriters Labratories? thanks

I am not sure about the rare thing. I would have to see the local numbers. IMO

BBM

I did not notice, and I'm from Missouri, so you gotta show me.

OK, I'm not really from Missouri, but you still gotta show me.

TIA

 

[logicalgirl]

Which only means that any one variety becomes relatively rarer and rarer as the market is diluted by so many different varieties, each of which can be readily distinguished from the other. :thumb:

Of course, I also noticed that none of the varieties on that shelf have a logo stamped on the tape surface. :angel:

JWG I religiously read your brilliant articles thanks very much and I'm always thrilled that every time someone here posts the word duct tape you pop in and get the facts straightened for us. :dance:

 

[joypath]

Hello again

I noticed this was asked one other time in this thread, but I'd like a little clarification.
There are numerous little holes near the ends of the duct tape (they look like pin pricks to me, but may be a mistake of my perception due to sizing.) Is anyone clear on what size samples the FBI took for testing, or where they obtained the samples from on the duct tape? In my mind, I can't see worthwhile samples for anything being obtained by poking holes. (Maybe a hole punch type of thing? Yes, I'm reaching here. But even then I'm not sure how it could leave the impressions/indentation of something poking from the non-sticky side of the tape toward the sticky side.) I apologize again, I am most likely overreacting... but knowing there was a syringe in that gatorade bottle nearby...

That's what typically remains from the laboratory examination procedure: the item, here it's the tape is held tightly and flat onto a flat poster-board material for photographing and measurements et al. Think of it as "pinning a butterfly's wings"

 

[KeyboardCat]

Thank you joypath But I do have a few more questions for you specifically.

On picture 10 of the slideshow from the link in the OP, I count at least ten distinctive punctures. Is it customary to pin the item of evidence that many times? I'm sure these aren't the only photographs taken of the tape, but for these at least, they are simply put in plastic and spread out. I assume then the pinning would be to more to stretch the tape out to get an accurate measurement only? I feel like I'm harping on the same issue. For that, I apologize Its just those pin holes on picture 10 look weathered to me somehow.

 

[joypath]

Thank you joypath But I do have a few more questions for you specifically.

On picture 10 of the slideshow from the link in the OP, I count at least ten distinctive punctures. Is it customary to pin the item of evidence that many times? I'm sure these aren't the only photographs taken of the tape, but for these at least, they are simply put in plastic and spread out. I assume then the pinning would be to more to stretch the tape out to get an accurate measurement only? I feel like I'm harping on the same issue. For that, I apologize Its just those pin holes on picture 10 look weathered to me somehow.

Hi KeyboardCat! Sorry for the delay but good old real life caught me!
I can only speak from having the pleasure of observing more than a few moons ago the amazing scientists at the FBI lab in action and therefore protocols probably have changed but each analytical division takes the unknown and mounts it on a "virgin" holder/container/slide/box as it were. So more than one person would be "stretching" this item, and yep, most will TRY to re-pin in the same hole!
When working with contaminated solids (ie clothing saturated with body fluids, materials with an unknown stain) only a very small amount is needed (think tip of a fingernail or even LESS!) since the sample will be "treated" (drowned in a special fluid) and then THAT "stuff" will be "run" (inserted into the mechanical tract (think train track with stops for chemistry reactions!) of the analytical instruments.
I "zoomed" my screen on some of the close up pics and I also observed that there are markings that resemble pinpoints but are definitely not thru and thru points, they appear to me to indicate that the body was in an area where the topography had a composite sandy basis, that the body or at least the cranial/oral cavity experienced an interplay of sandy silt washing thru as those markings seem to be tiny "stonings". JUST MY external long distance humble opinion!

 

[JWG]

Bond gave AZlawyer and I a little experiment over the weekend. :book: He must have thought we were bored or at least did not have anything better to do. Like a dutiful rube, I volunteered. :wave:

Here is his request:

Have either of you considered doin' a little experiment with different cutting methods to see if you can emulate the type of cut pattern we see on the remains tape?

I mean different scission methods are bound to have distinctive patterns. Nothing fancy...just use different methods and document the cut edge with a dig pic.

Different methods to try:

1) Tearing with hands
2) Cutting with scissors
3) Cutting with a dinner knife on a flat surface
4) Cutting with a dinner knife handheld
5) Blowtorch
6) Cutting with a pocket knife

OK...I just made up blowtorch. Anyway...I thought it would be informative, if not entertaining.

I skipped blowtorch because my plumber's sweat torch was out of liquid propane. I also skipped pocket knife because, believe it or not, I do not own one. But I did do numbers 1 - 4.

Even though it is the most popular brand of tape in the world, I do not own Henkel tape. My roll was made by Intertape. In fact, it was manufactured in Florida (unless they secretly manufacture it in China and purposefully mislabel their rolls :deal. Here is a picture of my tape:



The tape is not industrial grade, nor is it fire resistant. But it seems pretty heavy duty. I've used it to tape the seat on my exercise bike and it has held up well.

Here is an image taken after cutting the tape with scissors. The cut was clean and smooth - no rough edges. FWIW, I use scissors when cutting duct tape for applications such as patching a bike seat.



Here is an image taken after cutting the tape with a knife, with the tape laying on a flat surface (a counter top). I used a steak knife, because it is similar to what was found in KC's Pontiac. Even though I did not have Henkel tape, I did use a Henckel steak knife. :thumb:

Note that at the start of the cut the tape pulls a little before cutting takes place. I tried this a couple of times, and got the same result every time.



Next I tried stretching out a piece of tape and cutting it with the knife. It was harder to coordinate than I expected, because one really needs three hands to get the job done. I ended up grasping the roll between my knees, holding the free end of the tape with my left hand, and making a quick slice with my right. It wasn't until I finished the maneuver that I realized how close I came to reenacting the Bobbit saga all by myself. :yow:

I tried this a couple times (I am a slow learner :bang and found I always had trouble with the "finish". In one case I had to finish the cut with a second swipe of the knife. In the other, the cut kind of trailed off on a curve. The knife cuts were clean, but not straight.



Finally, I tore with my hands. It was neither hard nor easy. In the following image both ends were hand torn. My hand is shown to make it easy for me to identify the picture as the hand-torn one. Nice idea, huh? :idea: I sure need to do something with my nails.



The straight but ragged edges look to me to be much more in line with the duct tape evidence we have seen, leading me to conclude that KC tore the tape with her hands and did not cut it with a knife or scissors.

 

[JWG]

Here is a pictorial comparison of the edges of my hand-torn duct tape and the edges of evidence tape:









IMO, it sure looks like the remains tape was hand torn.

 

[autumnlover]

Thanks, JWG. That was extremely informative and the results seem indisputable.
Therefore, my question is this: If KC tore the duct tape with her hands is there any way that her fingerprints can not be on it? I find it extremely hard to believe that we've seen all the fingerprint evidence. This makes me suspect that there are, in fact, fingerprint results that have not been released to the defense yet. Does this seem plausible? I know LDB and JA said the defense has the FBI's results but what if someone else did the testing? She could not have worn rubber gloves because they would have stuck to the tape. If the shape of a heart was still there, how could fingerprints not be?? Surely her prints appeared on the sticky side. Dang - her prints have got to be there! :banghead:

 

[JWG]

Thanks, JWG. That was extremely informative and the results seem indisputable.
Therefore, my question is this: If KC tore the duct tape with her hands is there any way that her fingerprints can not be on it? I find it extremely hard to believe that we've seen all the fingerprint evidence. This makes me suspect that there are, in fact, fingerprint results that have not been released to the defense yet. Does this seem plausible? I know LDB and JA said the defense has the FBI's results but what if someone else did the testing? She could not have worn rubber gloves because they would have stuck to the tape. If the shape of a heart was still there, how could fingerprints not be?? Surely her prints appeared on the sticky side. Dang - her prints have got to be there! :banghead:

Unfortunately, AL, I think between 6 months of the elements and the effects of a decomposing body, the tape was so degraded that any fingerprints were long lost. Even Caylee's DNA did not show on the tape. Heck, even the cotton fiber in the tape rotted away, leaving behind only the polyester component.

 

[christee]

Thx for the experiment pics! I hope BJB paid you well! Lol
Photos help me "get" things so much easier!

I'm curious tho...How much tape didya hafta use on your exercise bike seat? I don't know why but reading that just tickled me!

 

[mitzi]

Very informative, BJB...and you're right, it sure does look the same as your torn example. Nice job.

 

[sumbunny]

I can also see Casey using latex surgical gloves to handle a deceased Caylee. Is duct tape difficult to handle using latex gloves?

 

[Tulessa]

BBM

I did not notice, and I'm from Missouri, so you gotta show me.

OK, I'm not really from Missouri, but you still gotta show me.

TIA

Chuckle of the day award!!!:woohoo:

 

[AZlawyer]

Thanks, JWG!! Now I don't have to feel guilty for not doing the experiment myself.

 

[ZsaZsa]

I just went to look for my duct tape to see how it looks when bitten off.... but I don't have any. :banghead: That is what I would like to see.... if teeth marks can be visualized.

 

[SleuthTheTruth]

Bond gave AZlawyer and I a little experiment over the weekend. :book: He must have thought we were bored or at least did not have anything better to do. Like a dutiful rube, I volunteered. :wave:

Here is his request:

I skipped blowtorch because my plumber's sweat torch was out of liquid propane. I also skipped pocket knife because, believe it or not, I do not own one. But I did do numbers 1 - 4.

Even though it is the most popular brand of tape in the world, I do not own Henkel tape. My roll was made by Intertape. In fact, it was manufactured in Florida (unless they secretly manufacture it in China and purposefully mislabel their rolls :deal. Here is a picture of my tape:

View attachment 9043

The tape is not industrial grade, nor is it fire resistant. But it seems pretty heavy duty. I've used it to tape the seat on my exercise bike and it has held up well.

Here is an image taken after cutting the tape with scissors. The cut was clean and smooth - no rough edges. FWIW, I use scissors when cutting duct tape for applications such as patching a bike seat.

View attachment 9047

Here is an image taken after cutting the tape with a knife, with the tape laying on a flat surface (a counter top). I used a steak knife, because it is similar to what was found in KC's Pontiac. Even though I did not have Henkel tape, I did use a Henckel steak knife. :thumb:

Note that at the start of the cut the tape pulls a little before cutting takes place. I tried this a couple of times, and got the same result every time.

View attachment 9046

Next I tried stretching out a piece of tape and cutting it with the knife. It was harder to coordinate than I expected, because one really needs three hands to get the job done. I ended up grasping the roll between my knees, holding the free end of the tape with my left hand, and making a quick slice with my right. It wasn't until I finished the maneuver that I realized how close I came to reenacting the Bobbit saga all by myself. :yow:

I tried this a couple times (I am a slow learner :bang and found I always had trouble with the "finish". In one case I had to finish the cut with a second swipe of the knife. In the other, the cut kind of trailed off on a curve. The knife cuts were clean, but not straight.

View attachment 9045

Finally, I tore with my hands. It was neither hard nor easy. In the following image both ends were hand torn. My hand is shown to make it easy for me to identify the picture as the hand-torn one. Nice idea, huh? :idea: I sure need to do something with my nails.

View attachment 9044

The straight but ragged edges look to me to be much more in line with the duct tape evidence we have seen, leading me to conclude that KC tore the tape with her hands and did not cut it with a knife or scissors.

I did this same kind of test, when the tape came out, before I made my post at the start of this thread. I came up with the same answer you did. You ROCK :dance: with this post and all the other ones you do. I love your style of getting a point across. I love show and tell!!!!

 

[TorisMom003]

I can also see Casey using latex surgical gloves to handle a deceased Caylee. Is duct tape difficult to handle using latex gloves?

I would have to say yes. When myself or my daughters have been to the doctor or in the hospital and a nurse was wearing the latex gloves it was difficult for them to handle surgical tape. The kind of tape that they use to hold IVs in place!?! Duct tape is much stickier than surgical tape is and with surgical tape sticking to the latex gloves as much as it does then I would have to say that duct tape would rip the latex gloves and there would have been pieces of latex gloves found on the sticky side of the tape if latex gloves had been used. MOO though.

 

[beach]

Here is a pictorial comparison of the edges of my hand-torn duct tape and the edges of evidence tape:

View attachment 9048

View attachment 9049

View attachment 9050

View attachment 9051

IMO, it sure looks like the remains tape was hand torn.

WOW.

The only thing I can think of to say is the colloquial, "A picture is worth a thousand words".


BJB, I say give AZ a pass on not completing her homework assignment since SleuthTheTruth's earlier experiment corroborated JWG's findings. :angel:

JWG, you remain at the top of the class! :dance:


eta: the blowtorch cracked me up!! :rolling:

 

[wenwe4]

WOW.

The only thing I can think of to say is the colloquial, "A picture is worth a thousand words".


BJB, I say give AZ a pass on not completing her homework assignment since SleuthTheTruth's earlier experiment collaborated JWG's findings. :angel:

JWG, you remain at the top of the class! :dance:


eta: the blowtorch cracked me up!! :rolling:

I spewed my caffeinated beverage at the "bobbit" reference (ty for the belly laugh!)