2011.06.11 Sidebar (Trial Day Sixteen)

[Leila]

I believe the duct tape was NOT put on Caylee's tender face skin and into her hair as a means to silence her after being "put to sleep" with chloroform, as a repeated occurrence. I don't believe the Inmate had done this before, to her daughter. Maybe the chloroform before...but not the duct tape before.

As LDB said in opening statements, when the duct tape was put on Caylee's face it was NEVER intended to come off - EVER. The person who put that duct tape on Caylee's face expected Caylee to be dead and to never be found with duct tape on or near her nose and mouth. It was not intended to stage a kidnapping and/or murder by someone else, because Caylee was not supposed to be found. (why the Inmate had a meltdown at jail when she heard that Caylee had been found)

Just like a bandaide is sometimes difficult to remove, and sometimes leaves a red mark on the skin when removed, especially on a child with sensitive skin.... IF the duct tape had ever been applied at any time to Caylee's face while she was alive, and then removed (when she woke up from her nap in the trunk for example) it would have been very painful for an alive Caylee to have that duct tape pulled off of her face skin and out of her hair, and it would have certainly left some telltale redness on Caylee's face from being removed, and would have been an experience which Caylee would certainly tell JoJo and CeeCee about.

Excellent points! The part I put in bold needs to be part of the state's closing statement..........it needs to be repeated so the jury is left with that thought.

 

[Quiche]

I agree completely ... well said!
Cindy in particular is still looking for some tiny speck of something in the testimony to help her daughter get a mistrial or get acquitted. Disgusting!
I do not see the look of horror on either George or Cindy's faces when more and more testimony and evidence comes out which points to the Inmate as the murderer of Caylee -- I do not see light bulbs coming on in their eyes or facial expressions.
I see them being sneaky yet cautious enough not to get booted from court.
I do not see the look of "how could you do this to Caylee?!" on their faces.
I think the only reason Cindy (and maybe Lee also) did not mouth "I love you" to the Inmate when she got on the witness stand, was because she was afraid the Judge might eject her from her spectator seat if she did.
I could understand and have compassion for the Inmate's parents and brother, in the PENALTY phase of the trial, to beg for her life ... but have NO sympathy at all for them trying to help her in the GUILT phase of the trial. Cindy is still actively trying to help the Inmate escape a conviction for murder.

Hmmm, they better pray she doesn't get acquitted, because I think she was contemplating murdering both of them. They should NOT want this girl back home. jmo

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Does it really matter whether the Anthonys do or don't support ICA? If CA ran across the court room and wrapped ICA in her arms, what difference would that make with respect to the evidence this jury is now hearing?

I guess my point is, it's a done deal. She's going to be found guilty or innocent by this jury, based soley on the evidence, and nothing the Anthonys can do can change that fact.

 

[21merc7]

Hmmm, they better pray she doesn't get acquitted, because I think she was contemplating murdering both of them. They should NOT want this girl back home. jmo

How are the jurors to allow her to go home if home is so bad? :twocents:

 

[Boots-OK]

IMO - the lawyer or ME doesn't exist who can give me a logical and innocent reason for strips of duct tape to be found .... WITH .... a child's body.

If you disregard everything else we know so far - and I'll even go so far as to say just "maybe" the duct tape wasn't on her face (I'm certain it was) - there is no good reason any deceased person should be found with strips of duct tape.....period!

 

[21merc7]

Does it really matter whether the Anthonys do or don't support ICA? If CA ran across the court room and wrapped ICA in her arms, what difference would that make with respect to the evidence this jury is now hearing?

I guess my point is, it's a done deal. She's going to be found guilty or innocent by this jury, and nothing the Anthonys can do can change that fact.

It does not matter, and that is why the Judge just watches. At least they love their daughter. A lot of murder defendant's parents love their children, there is nothing wrong with it, it does not change the trial.

KC is not speaking and being told what to say, therefore, script of GA made me do it, CA made me do it, is out of the design. (For three years, thank you JB for letting KC insist on not seeing her parents.)

 

[Quiche]

How are the jurors to allow her to go home if home is so bad? :twocents:

Yeah, they won't, I'm just stating that it's warped thinking of Cindy and George to want her back home. I hope they cut her loose and move on... no commissary, no letters, refuse her calls. That's just me.

 

[Doodlelover]

I agree. I think HHBP needs to see this, as well as the state and defense attorneys. It's impossible for those in the courtroom to see everything that's going on. They all need to know that KC's behavior is mocking the court process.

I wonder if any of the jurors have seen her hand gesture?

I'm not so sure aout the hand gesture myself. I think she's just weird. She's using her fingers to push the kleenex around.

BUT.. I DO think HHJP needs to know about the text messaging. I do believe the DT is giving Casey txts from CA as was previously posted. This IMO should NOT be allowed. She is on trial for murder, she should have no contact with anybody.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

June 1st:
CFNews13Casey Casey Anthony News13
Lee testifies George Anthony also had a set of keys to White Pontiac car and had access to trunk. #CaseyAnthony -fell
3 minutes ago

WS Twitter Thread - post 481

ETA: I don't think for one second GA had anything to do with it - just thinking what the DT might use to raise reasonable doubt.

I agree and George had keys to pick the car up at the tow lot but nobody has put George in that car for the 31 days.

 

[sorrell skye]

That was my thinking as well.

However, I have listened to every bit of the testimony in this trial. I recall quite well the anthropologist who collected the bones stating that the vertebra was found some distance from the skull (probably due to animals having dragged the spine there while it was still connected to soft tissue), and that all those little bones were found in the same place. Some distance from the skull and the bags the body had been stored in.

I hope JB plans to prove to me that Roy Kronk is a whiz when it comes to human anatomy, because he would have to be to know how to place all the right bones, all in the same place.

bbm

Oh yes, that was quite a bit of hefty testimony by the expert witness, wasn't it?

I have an extensive knowledge of the human skeletal system, and I would be very hard-pressed to reassemble dis-articulated spinal bones so perfectly that I could fool a forensic anthropologist.

As far as I'm concerned, the location and the arrangement of the vertebrae strongly disproves the DT's claims that anyone else had possession of the remains.

 

[21merc7]

I agree and George had keys to pick the car up at the tow lot but nobody has put George in that car for the 31 days.

DT is working on the Amscot parking lot and tow yard time with GA had a key. I don't think the jurors will buy it, but that is what is happening.

Oh my, we have DT weeks coming up after this coming Friday. Everyone brace yourselves, stock up, lock the keyboards, eat Astronaut icecream, IDK...

 

[SyraKelly]

Hmmm, they better pray she doesn't get acquitted, because I think she was contemplating murdering both of them. They should NOT want this girl back home. jmo

Well-from the looks of the video, CA signaling ICA-I say she welcome her back
with open arms...

 

[Chilly Willy]

Very good point. This is JMO, but it could be because it was the night of the 15th of June that Cindy and Casey had the fight that JG told police about, or more accurately, he told police what Casey had told him about the fight. So, for the sake of argument, assuming the fight took place, then I can see a very angry, frustrated, jealous Casey leaving the house with Caylee. In a fit of rage Caylee became the victim of her over-the-top anger and jealousy. Would explain the clothes found with the skeleton being the same clothes little Caylee had worn on the 15th. This would also eliminate an "accident" as a cause of death. I think in Florida(lived there for 21 years) premeditated can be a very short time. So, this scenario would explain the clothes found with Caylee's remains, and also fit the murder one charge. JMO

They were not the same shorts.

 

[ZsaZsa]

I completely agree with your post.

I also thought about how the jury will see this trial. I do believe the type of people on this jury may also think the same. As alot of points people make to her guilt have to be supported with things that have not been heard this far in court.

Our justice system has been the same for years. People have been taught beyond a reasonable doubt and taught that our rights are important to us all.
Additionaly we have been taught advances in science can tell us almost anything we want to know. Here we are seeing a case that SHOULD have been very easy to find factual scientific evidence, i.e DNA ,fluids from the body in the trunk ,etc. yet somehow all or most the evidence in this case is "new " and then circumstantial. I do believe they proved the body in the trunk.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Circumstantial+Evidence

The air can test. is interesting but it begs to offer if a smell can be transported and placed in a can , then that same smell can be deposited anywhere.
In a normal trial that WOULD be unreasonable,yet in this trial where the father of the accused was a homicide dectective and is accused by the defence in aiding in the cover up of an accidental death, if the defence presented it in a proper way ,it might not sound as unreasonable. The same pattern might also work for the Duct tape after death. The smell could have been on a blankey GA stuck in her truck and later removed. Remember the Amco lady said she saw a pooh bear blanket in the car before it was towed.

I have assumed since this DT (which is lacking and missing asking some very good questions) can make it this far in the trial and bring out the flaws in the SA case, It is my belief a better defence team would have gotten much farther with her defence.

I think in this case we will not be able to guess at what the jury believes until after the defence presents its witnesses.

I also think JB might be able to pull off that phase of the defence better then he has this part. I could just be putting more faith in him. I think he may surprize us there.

Which body fluids do you think should have been in the trunk and tested for DNA? We know that she had duct tape over her nose and mouth, so no fluids would have escaped. She was wearing a pull up diaper, so no urine or feces.
There was no sign of blood in the trunk...
Re the Smell- that was transported in a piece of car trunk liner, inside a can.
When Dr Vass opened it he jumped back two steps- he has been smelling human decomposition for a couple of decades now and he knows what it is...

 

[fifteen89]

You are right, someone else COULD HAVE had access to the trunk but you have to look at the case as a whole with little puzzle pieces. It doesn't fit. WHY? always ask yourself WHY? There is no reason, anybody else had to kill Caylee. They loved her, she was their pride and joy. There is no motive. The only one with motive was Casey. Add that to all the little pieces of the car, the heart sticker, the timing and so on and it becomes less and less "reasonable" that anybody else is connected to all those little pieces.

If you laid out all the evidence and and who it all connected to my only conclusion is Casey. She is the ONLY person with the motive, means and opportunity.

What a great way to put it. I hope there's someone like you on this jury. When you look at ALL the pieces, there's only one way they all fit together.

 

[wyome]

<mod note: snipped by concentric>

I have some questions. Do you think that the duct tape was applied in a passive or aggressive manner? In other words, was the duct tape applied as a measure to keep Caylee quiet in the event that the sedative (chloroform) wore off too quickly? Or, was the duct tape applied in a frenzy of anger in order to shut Caylee the f up and silence her forever?

Does the means of applying the duct tape even matter? It's all murder in the end, right?

Or, is that not the case?

That's a tough question. I wish I knew.

I have a weird feeling that Casey drowned her in the bathtub in a fit of rage. For all I know, she could have put the duct tape on afterward to ensure she wasn't going to "come to" while she figured out what to do next.

Or, of course she did it deliberately and violently to smother her and quiet her forever.

I don't think she placed the tape to "make it look like a kidnapping". I don't think the tape was a staging....I think it was there as the weapon itself, or placed there to make sure she was good and dead.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Does it really matter whether the Anthonys do or don't support ICA? If CA ran across the court room and wrapped ICA in her arms, what difference would that make with respect to the evidence this jury is now hearing?

I guess my point is, it's a done deal. She's going to be found guilty or innocent by this jury, based soley on the evidence, and nothing the Anthonys can do can change that fact.

She is also going to be found guilty on the testimony of her father. He is the last person to see an alive Caylee with Casey.

It is very important he tells the truth in all his testimony and does not try to fudge it when he testifies again.

George and Cindy have both lied in this investigation. From their interviews on TV to their depositions and Cindy in her testimony so far. I am not sure if George has lied or he just decided to remember that Caylee said she was going to Zanny's. I could have swore he testified he had never heard the name Zanny before all this happened. All he had heard was nanny.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I wanted to add that on today's current news thread at the top of the page, on page 2, there's a link to the WESH news - a brief video showing the unblurred morphing of the picture of Caylee with the superimposed duct tape skull. There's also a picture of her skeleton.

I found wesh news, but can't find the video. :waitasec:

 

[Doodlelover]

I think when the Dt starts arguing their side, we are going to have alot of WSers screaming and wanting to hurl things at their computers.

He IS going to score some points. He will easily have found "experts" who disagree with the Pros experts. Such is the way of a trial. There will be some compelling aruguments I'm sure but there are some things that just can't be changed.

Caylee was in that trunk and she was found with tuct tape on her face. I don't think any experts can unring those bells to the jury.

But,,, all that said, I'm not looking forward to the DT side and the pros having to fight to keep their lead.

 

[Chilly Willy]

I think the jurors have seen instances of neglect in several witness testimonies. Abuse which she is charged with is a different beast. However, the murder alone would prove that, if the jurors think she did it.

I don't believe Caylee was every physically abused. Casey didn't want to hurt Caylee, she just wanted her gone. That's why I think she used the chloroform before taping Caylee's face, she didn't want Caylee to suffer.