2011.06.18 Sidebar Thread (Trial Day Twenty-Two)

[Tuffy]

Damn it. There goes my theory. :waitasec: Hmm. I still see a more Tony related motive than a Cindy one.. I don't buy that Casey was afraid of her parents..

I don't see it so much as being about one person other than Casey. Tony just happened to be the guy of the week. If not him, it would have been Ricardo, the other Tony, or Mark. I think it's as simple as Casey not wanting to be a mom anymore. Since she never bonded with Caylee, it wasn't hard for her to decide to get rid of Caylee.

 

[kant]

I think it was the family desktop, using Mozilla Firefox. And that she was the only one that used that browser. But I'm not sure (it's late lol), so anyone feel free to correct me.

About your scenario. Yes a lot of people seem to think that that's what happened. I believe two things could've happened, since such a high level of chloroform was found. First scenario is the one you mentioned. Second is; CAsey chloroformed Caylee so that she wouldn't be able to struggle when she put the ducttapes across her little face.

I dont know the nuance, but if there were swimming items ever in the trunk... chlorine.

And also, dont know the science or the nuance of that chemical as it relates to decomposition of any death not specifically or necessarily death by chloroform.

Iow, Im just supposing out loud about how that may chemical have been present in the trunk; and as I said, I need to catch up on trial facts.

And I try to envision all the cogent scenarios mentioned here, and here's the thing. I cant articulate it clearly, but I hope the idea I'm trying to convey comes acorss.

I was thinking.

Ok. If we go with that. (whoever mentioned this one theory; I cant recall.) The scenario Im referring to here is the one in which it's posited that Casey didnt intend to kill Caylee, but rather intended to sedate her (chloroform) and/or silence her (duct tape.)

If she is sedated, she doesnt need the duct tape.

Next, Caylee's little hands were not found bound right?

If someone were....

How to say it....

Let me back up: If Caylee were awakening from a dosing (let's say for argument's sake, awakening from a dosing presumably "too early") her hands would be free to pull and jerk on that tape which anyone with a free hand would instintively do ? or am I missing something? IDK.

I guess that leads me to WHY the tape? (.....in a sedation scenario, I mean, vs a different scenario.)

That's why I was leaning toward the tape as an after-thought bc I can see Casey thinking that that makes it look more kidnap-esque... in her mind...

IDK *sigh*

 

[Just K]

I don't see it so much as being about one person other than Casey. Tony just happened to be the guy of the week. If not him, it would have been Ricardo, the other Tony, or Mark. I think it's as simple as Casey not wanting to be a mom anymore. Since she never bonded with Caylee, it wasn't hard for her to decide to get rid of Caylee.

It is also possible that it was for mounting or layered reasons.
She was sick of living with her parents
She was tired of being tied to a child she never planned on keeping.
She wanted to be a "normal" 22 year old.
She had a boyfriend who was inviting her into or showing her a whole new lifestyle...she could "manage" a bunch of bar wenches and be the center of everyone's attention.
Her boyfriend said he didn't want to have girls.
Her older friends had fallen by the wayside and she saw a way to make new friends but they were free to stay out, make their own decisions and she couldn't.
Caylee got more attention at home than she was getting.
Her parents were spending money on Caylee that they could have given to her.
Oh, not to mention she said it herself, "maybe because I am a spiteful b !tch."

Please feel free to add to the list. I know there are many more things to add.

 

[kant]

She had no job though. Plenty of time to experiment. The items used to make chloforom are common used household items. Easily purchased. And if we're going with the child-abuse scenario, drugging Casey so that she could party, I assume she never figured it could all go horribly wrong and didn't bother to search on a library computer. (She did delete the chloroform sites/searches from the desktop though. No other sites were deleted, just those.)

I see your point and well taken. I just envision the mess and the smells and the margin of error.

There are plenty of over the counter items that sedate/over sedate kids when used improperly. There are adult street drugs that sedate. (Im bouncing here off the idea submitted earlier as the zanny name being created from the name xanax.)

My point is, I dont see Casey as choosing to take the more complicated plan if there were easier ones regarding sedation used as a form of babysitting (shudder) if that were the goal .....and there were easier ways than homemade chloroform imo.

Also, I may be wrong, but wasnt George out of work?

 

[Just K]

I dont know the nuance, but if there were swimming items ever in the trunk... chlorine.

And also, dont know the science or the nuance of that chemical as it relates to decomposition of any death not specifically or necessarily death by chloroform.

Iow, Im just supposing out loud about how that may chemical have been present in the trunk; and as I said, I need to catch up on trial facts.

And I try to envision all the cogent scenarios mentioned here, and here's the thing. I cant articulate it clearly, but I hope the idea I'm trying to convey comes acorss.

I was thinking.

Ok. If we go with that. (whoever mentioned this one theory; I cant recall.) The scenario Im referring to here is the one in which it's posited that Casey didnt intend to kill Caylee, but rather intended to sedate her (chloroform) and/or silence her (duct tape.)

If she is sedated, she doesnt need the duct tape.

Next, Caylee's little hands were not found bound right?

If someone were....

How to say it....

Let me back up: If Caylee were awakening from a dosing (let's say for argument's sake, awakening from a dosing presumably "too early") her hands would be free to pull and jerk on that tape which anyone with a free hand would instintively do ? or am I missing something? IDK.

I guess that leads me to WHY the tape? (.....in a sedation scenario, I mean, vs a different scenario.)

That's why I was leaning toward the tape as an after-thought bc I can see Casey thinking that that makes it look more kidnap-esque... in her mind...

IDK *sigh*

That is why many people feel she knew what she would find in the morning. That the duct tape, as LDB said, being applied to her hair was never intended to come off.

It is the part that most of us cannot even begin to fathom no less think of everything the defendant had to do once the deed was done...

Sickening!

 

[kant]

It is also possible that it was for mounting or layered reasons.
She was sick of living with her parents
She was tired of being tied to a child she never planned on keeping.
She wanted to be a "normal" 22 year old.
She had a boyfriend who was inviting her into or showing her a whole new lifestyle...she could "manage" a bunch of bar wenches and be the center of everyone's attention.
Her boyfriend said he didn't want to have girls.
Her older friends had fallen by the wayside and she saw a way to make new friends but they were free to stay out, make their own decisions and she couldn't.
Caylee got more attention at home than she was getting.
Her parents were spending money on Caylee that they could have given to her.
Oh, not to mention she said it herself, "maybe because I am a spiteful b !tch."

Please feel free to add to the list. I know there are many more things to add.

Yes, so much word from me on that.

Another part that has nagged me.

Again, correct me on the details or if it's all conjecture or has been mentioned in court or whatnot, but that FIGHT (argument? or actual physical "fight?") bw Cindy and Casey ON OR ABOUT that fateful night.

That bothers the heck out of me and I cant even begin to list the reasons why.


I can hear in my head, Cindy to Casey, "Im taking legal custody of Caylee, exposing all your embarrassing whatnots in court, your lies, your pretend nanny who I know doesnt exist, your pretend job and I'll easily "prove" you as a bad mother, and BTW the gravy train is over; you're history, get out of this house!!"

or sah-um like that.

and then Casey went ballistic and innocent Caylee suffered the consequences. IDK.

 

[lookieloo]

Wow Kant, sure have alot to say tonight!
First of all, if there had been a bathing suit, or any clothes with pool chlorine in the trunk, the chlorine on that would be negligible, insignificant really, the experts said.
About the computer searching, from what I gathered from the testimony,
Casey's name was the user name on the computer but she never used that user name, her parents did. She used a different user name with a password that her parents didn't even know about, they thought she used the Casey user name. And she used Firefox, her parents didn't. Plus, they did research her parents work schedules, and they were always at work when those searches took place.

 

[kant]

That is why many people feel she knew what she would find in the morning. That the duct tape, as LDB said, being applied to her hair was never intended to come off.

It is the part that most of us cannot even begin to fathom no less think of everything the defendant had to do once the deed was done...

Sickening!

Yes, I agree and that's why I cant go with the sedation-as-babysitter.

Again, dont have the science facts as to if, or even how, one could "prove" when tape was applied (after death or as cause of death for example)- I mean, given the condition the remains were in;

but at times I find myself leaning toward..... I get the feeling that the tape was applied after Caylee was dead.

IDk.. I vacillate.

 

[lookieloo]

Well, the hair of Cayley's found in the trunk had the death band on it. The hairs found stuck to the duct tape did not. You do the math...

 

[logicalgirl]

Perhaps what I posted was a bit *sloppy* and ambiguous. To clarify, I believe most mothers are biologically set up to protect their children.

IMO, the ones who do what ICA has done are monsters and are freaks of nature.

I have no doubt of her guilt and agree she should receive the ultimate punishment.

I still find it incomprehensible that any mother or human being could do such things to a defenseless child...that doesn't mean I do not believe these crimes happen.

I know it happens from first hand experience. I can also tell you that many people in my own personal circle of family and friends did not/could not/would not believe that the person who committed the crime against my daughter actually did it.

I initially responded to a poster who stated they could not understand why so many people can't believe ICA did what she did. Imo, many people find it hard to believe the evil some are capable of...especially due to the fact she was the child's mother.

I hope you didn't take my post as a criticism because it wasn't meant that way. And yes, I could see you knew mother's did this but were struggling to comprehend the why of it all.

I think we are really looking into the mind of a monster when a mother/father would rather take the life of their child rather than take one of the many options available to them in our society. How selfish is it to believe your child is better dead than with someone else, even if it is a less than wonderful environment?

Clearly the reason you can't comprehend it is because you are loving and caring person who would never harm a child. Unlike ICA who isn't like that at all. Evil is evil. ICA is evil. You are not.

 

[QuietStorm]

Thank you both for that.

See? I let JVM et all plant ideas in my head that I let myself get confused with actual testimony. Yes, I thought Lee WAS mentioned in testimony/statements in court re molestation; but like a doof, I only heard it on NG or JVM or fill in the blank. Thank u

Lee molesting Casey WAS mentioned by Baez in his opening statement. Watch his opening statement here.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/052411-defense-opening-statement

At 12:04, he states that when KC was 8, inappropriate touching started and it escalated, says that KC is sex abuse survivor and that during the trial we'll see signs of it: "a sign here, a sign there, a sign here." At 17:36 Baez brings Lee into the statement and says that as a teen, he followed in his father's steps and also touched his sister although it "didn't go as far." Baez states that it got so bad that the FBI did a paternity test and that Lee didn't deny it and Baez stated that Lee said he'd talk about it "when the time is right." At 19:36 Baez begins his pe*** in the mouth argument.

 

[logicalgirl]

Good judgment is the result of experience and that usually comes as a result of bad judgment. So it seems in my case anyway........so hard to listen and learn from others. I do believe the human race is under the curse of experiential knowledge.

Agree and how annoying is that! I think many of my "learnings" came from being in such a painful "head space" I had to seek out others answers so I could be primarily live in some kind of peace in the middle of chaos.

So I agree - bad judgment or too much emotional pain will get us to change course. It seems no matter how hard we try, life doesn't come with a big roadmap giving us a clear path to a happy and carefree life. As much as we'd like that,and as much as we think we've got it figured out, life itself keeps stepping in our way, doesn't it?

 

[kant]

I think she did it without the duct tape at least a few times if not more. There is the night where no one knows where Caylee was when she stayed at RM's house. Also the friends said she wouldn't stay late or drink too much at the clubs and parties as she said she had to get home because of Caylee....something to that effect. So, I do think she drugged her and left her in the trunk more than the last time.

This also makes complete sense.

Was Caylee at an age where she could have tried to tell someone that mommy was doing bad things that scared her "in the car" or whatever words that would be developmental applicable? or do we then get into an amnesia situtation in which Caylee couldnt recall no matter haow horrifiying (which seems to speak somewhat to the possible use xanax, imo) (re possible amnesia on the "dosing" episodes)

But dangit I cant see Casey getting it so "right" (clearly not the word Im looking for) that she'd not under-dose her and have Caylee wake up screaming, and alerting passers-by (OH THE RISK FACTOR THERE)

or over dose and killing her.. Im just throwing things out there to hear responses here bc that I learn things that I havent thought of. All good food for thought.

hugs

 

[QuietStorm]

We have the computer searches taking place before she meets Tony though.

I don't believe he said he didn't want children. IIRC he said he didn't think his apartment was a suitable environment for children.

 

[Sabrina2011]

This makes complete sense.

Was Caylee at an age where she codl have tried to tell someone that mommy was doing ad things that scared her "in the car" or whatever words that wold be developmental applicable? or do we then get into an amnesia situtation in which Caylee couldnt recall no matter haow horrifiying (which seems to speak somewhat to the possible use xanax, imo) (re possible amnesia on the "dosing" episodes)

But dangit I cant see Casey getting it so "right" (clearly not the word Im looking for) that she'd not under-dose her and have Caylee wake up screaming, and alerting passers-by (OH THE RISK FACTOR THERE)

or over dose and killing her.. Im just throwing things out there to hear responses here bc that I learn things that I havent thought of. All good food for thought.

hugs

I had the same thought as you and can't find the words either.. How did she do this with such precision as to never have her wake up and make a scene.

Unless she kept checking on her

 

[Rallihanna]

One of the things that bothers me the most... is Caylee's memory will never really get the justice she deserves. Because her spiteful mother will never own up to what really happened to the poor little girl

 

[cleo612]

The Anthony's did not use chlorine in their pool. They used Baquacil--a non-chlorine product.

 

[logicalgirl]

with all the depo reading I've been doing, listening to the hearings, and now into the trial, I believe several days ago was the first time I've ever heard the prosecution believes little Caylee went into the bags with duct tape and chloroform while she was still alive.

I can't believe I've missed this fact for three years! Had anyone else not heard this for three years or is it just me being a :loser: - anyone?

 

[kant]

Are we referring to Casey as ICA to distinguish from the other CAs? If so great, bc typing all the names over and over...


TIA ("thanks in advance")

(hee sidenote: I wrote that TIA thing once and there was this sweet poster man who thought I meant (no one here) Transient Ischemic Attack........ which may speak unfavorably to my posting articulation.



.

 

[Sabrina2011]

with all the depo reading I've been doing, listening to the hearings, and now into the trial, I believe several days ago was the first time I've ever heard the prosecution believes little Caylee went into the bags with duct tape and chloroform while she was still alive.

I can't believe I've missed this fact for three years! Had anyone else not heard this for three years or is it just me being a :loser: - anyone?

Me too! Fell off my seat when he said that... It tells me JA knows something... or they feel that is very possible.. what a horror!! wow..