A Glass of Tea and DNA.

[SleuthingSleuth]

Hi there...am new to this forum here. I remember the Ramsey case back when it first came about, though I've had a revived interest in it in light of the recent developments (although unless something big happens that makes all the pieces fit together, I personally doubt the validity of the Karr suspect actually being the murderer of JonBenet.)
Bear with me if I go over ground too well covered already.

In reading through various things, something I focused in upon was the objects on the breakfast table. The bowl of pineapple is well known and as I've seen, well discussed. Was a small bowl with fresh pinapple in it, but also a sterling silver spoon that was disproportionate to the bowl's size.
I believe only Patsy and Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl, and not JonBenet's. I presume JonBenet's fingerprints also were not on the spoon.
Since JonBenet did eat pineapple from that bowl shortly before her death, it is suggestive she ate with her bare hands (which one can certainly do with fresh pineapple)...or if she did use a utensil, it was either missing, or put somewhere (wherever dirty silverware went, I suppose).

There was also a box of kleenex on the table. Whether this has any relevance or not can't be said, I suppose. But...perhaps the tissues were used as napkins by whoever was eating the pineapple (JonBenet eating with her bare hands?)?

Finally, there was a "water glass" with a used teabag in it, suggesting someone drank tea from it...and as well, was drinking tea as JonBenet ate the pineapple (the bowl and the glass I believe were on different parts of the table, as if two people were sitting at it).
JonBenet's fingerprints were not on it...I believe only Pasty's and Burke's was.

I myself haven't seen a lot about the tea glass...does anyone know if it was ever tested for DNA? Certainly someone was drinking from it...and who knows who that might have been. Could have been a family member...or the killer. And if a family member was guilty or involved...well, it certainly is curious...as there should have been DNA on the glass.

Why in the world was JonBenet sitting at the breakfast table eating pineapple in the middle of Christmas night, and who was sitting with her and drinking tea?
I believe this event in the timespan of the murder is very key...because according to the parents, they claimed didn't know of the pineapple on the table or anything else on the table evidently (much less anything else that happened that night)
Either there's lying going on...or something more.

In any case...it's quite odd for a girl her age to be sitting up late like that and on Christmas night too when she was supposed to get up early the next day. Especially considering she evidently died between 10PM and 6AM, from what I've read.

 

[Tristan]

In response to your comment that it is very odd for a child that age to be up
eating at that time of night, I can tell you that my sister, who has four children, sometimes has her 7 year old up at 10 or 11pm eating.
Why? Because the child took a nap earlier in the day, and is awake and hungry. It happens.

Jonbenet may not have eaten much at the White's that evening, and since pineapple was a VERY light snack, she may have been hungry and Patsy
gave it to her. Nothing odd about that.

However, I am stumped as to the tea glass.

Was there DNA on it? Saliva?

 

[jaleach123]

It's been stated somewhere on this board that Burke was the big tea drinker in the house. This implies that Burke was with JonBenet at the table that fateful evening.

What's more interesting to me is how often I notice the unkempt nature of the house in the crime scene photos. You'll always see shelves filled to the bursting with stuff, or stuff stacked by stairwells and the like. Since the family had two young children, I don't find this unusual. It's tough to keep ahead of the mess. Perhaps, though, it explains why Burke's tea glass--if it indeed is his--sat on the table. He could have drank that hours earlier and no one picked it up. It's a thought.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

In response to your comment that it is very odd for a child that age to be up
eating at that time of night, I can tell you that my sister, who has four children, sometimes has her 7 year old up at 10 or 11pm eating.
Why? Because the child took a nap earlier in the day, and is awake and hungry. It happens.

Certainly, that's possible. Wouldn't rule out JoneBenet waking up and being hungry (though to note, her bedsheets also had urine stains...which is a subject itself in the sequence of the night of the 25th).
Essentially JonBenet was up past 10PM when she was supposed to be asleep...and it's doubtful she went down and got such a snack herself and ate it alone.
Someone was with her...typically indeed it'd be a parent.

Jonbenet may not have eaten much at the White's that evening, and since pineapple was a VERY light snack, she may have been hungry and Patsy
gave it to her. Nothing odd about that.

However, I am stumped as to the tea glass.

Was there DNA on it? Saliva?

If JonBenet had eaten the pineapple before 10PM-6AM...Patsy would have no reason to lie about the pineapple bowl...but if she actually gave JonBenet food past when she said everyone was asleep...she'd trip over lies.

It's highly strange the mother would have no idea where the bowl of pineapple came from, considering it was their bowl and their spoon...and their daughter never touched either of them.

I imagine there should have been DNA on the glass if someone drank a whole glass of tea from it, though.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

It's been stated somewhere on this board that Burke was the big tea drinker in the house. This implies that Burke was with JonBenet at the table that fateful evening.

What's more interesting to me is how often I notice the unkempt nature of the house in the crime scene photos. You'll always see shelves filled to the bursting with stuff, or stuff stacked by stairwells and the like. Since the family had two young children, I don't find this unusual. It's tough to keep ahead of the mess. Perhaps, though, it explains why Burke's tea glass--if it indeed is his--sat on the table. He could have drank that hours earlier and no one picked it up. It's a thought.

Ah, yeah, I've heard Burke was a big tea drinker...which is suggestive he was with her that night (which would mean he was coached otherwise, were I to speculate).

I noticed the unkempt nature of the house too...it certainly was not a tidy place from what I could tell, aside from the bedrooms and such.
It's possible the glass of tea was from hours before and just left on the table...I just wonder if it was ever tested for DNA.

 

[Tristan]

Actually, SleuthingSleuth, what's even stranger, is that Patsy vehemently
denied owning the bowl, yet her fingerprints are on it.


Hmmmmmm..........

 

[trixie]

In the recent documentary "Anatomy of a Cold Case" it was stated that neither the tea glass nor the spoon in the bowl of pineapple were tested for DNA. I just can't believe how this case was so bungled. BTW, I read somewhere that Patsy said they all drink tea, sweet tea, in the summer. Not only Burke. She didn't know why that glass with the tea bag was on the table, when she viewed it in a photograph during one of her police interviews. She also claimed to not recognise the kleenex on the table.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

Actually, SleuthingSleuth, what's even stranger, is that Patsy vehemently
denied owning the bowl, yet her fingerprints are on it.


Hmmmmmm..........

True...quite strange.

According to the parents' accounts, JonBenet was fast asleep when they got home and they just carried her to bed, apparently asleep and zonked out. No time for Patsy to give her pineapple before 10PM or such.

According to Burke...JonBenet fell asleep in the car, but woke up when they got to the house. She was awake enough to carry presents into the house and up the stairs.
I haven't found him describing any events farther than that, aside from what he claimed to hear during the night in his bed (house noises).

It was Burke who confirmed the pineapple bowl did belong to the Ramsey family.

 

[Charlie]

Actually, SleuthingSleuth, what's even stranger, is that Patsy vehemently
denied owning the bowl, yet her fingerprints are on it.


Hmmmmmm..........

The bowl with the pinnaple is definetly interwined into this crime, otherwise why would patsy lie about it knowing of its existence. The lie is evident by the fact her fingerprints were found on it...just another bulletpoint on the list of what the ramsey's lied about.

 

[Lurker Steve]

In the recent documentary "Anatomy of a Cold Case" it was stated that neither the tea glass nor the spoon in the bowl of pineapple were tested for DNA. I just can't believe how this case was so bungled. BTW, I read somewhere that Patsy said they all drink tea, sweet tea, in the summer. Not only Burke. She didn't know why that glass with the tea bag was on the table, when she viewed it in a photograph during one of her police interviews. She also claimed to not recognise the kleenex on the table.

Sweet tea is just sweetened iced tea. You'd drink it in a glass, but it's tend to made in bulk (like a jug's worth.) There wouldn't be a tea bag.

I remember this as a kid (yup, I'm a southern boy.)

It'd make more sense if someone heated up water and then put the tea bag in - i.e. hot tea. Especially since it was winter in Colorado and chilly.

 

[Lurker Steve]

The bowl with the pinnaple is definetly interwined into this crime, otherwise why would patsy lie about it knowing of its existence. The lie is evident by the fact her fingerprints were found on it...just another bulletpoint on the list of what the ramsey's lied about.

Not at all, her fingerprints could have been placed on it when she put it into storage, or on the table (empty or with other fruit), etc.

 

[trixie]

Yeah, it's a southern thing, although I LOVE it and I'm not southern. Patsy thought it was also strange and said that is not how one makes tea, in a glass like that. She claimed to know nothing about it. Remember that interview?

 

[trixie]

Not at all, her fingerprints could have been placed on it when she put it into storage, or on the table (empty or with other fruit), etc.

Yes, but Patsy DENIED owning the bowl. Burke and even John recognized it, but not Patsy. Now that's strange.
Sorry, forgot to say welcome SleuthingSleuth!

 

[Lurker Steve]

Yes, but Patsy DENIED owning the bowl. Burke and even John recognized it, but not Patsy. Now that's strange.

That is strange. Especially since it's rather easy to point out she did own the bowl - not just from family members, but from the visitors who frequented the house.

If Patsy was innocent, why would she deny owning the bowl?
Was she so terrified at this point of being connected to the crime that she lied about something so innocuous?
Did she forget about the bowl?

Since I haven't seen the raw statement - did she deny owning the bowl, or deny knowing where the bowl came from?

 

[Nova]

Do people really let 10-year-old boys drink tea after 10pm at night? Isn't the caffeine a problem? (Just wondering. Tea isn't something I'd give a child that age.)

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

Yes, but Patsy DENIED owning the bowl. Burke and even John recognized it, but not Patsy. Now that's strange.
Sorry, forgot to say welcome SleuthingSleuth!

Thanks for the welcome.

Yes, it is quite strange for Patsy to insist she knew nothing about the bowl. Her fingerprints were on it...she definitely knew it. That in itself has to be chalked up as a lie.
Either she gave the pineapple, or knew who did. Otherwise she'd have no problem saying that yes, the bowl belonged to her family and she'd handled it before. Something spooked her, were I to speculate.

I do agree it's a big sign of bungling when neither the spoon nor the tea glass were tested for DNA....especially when the mother of the victim swears she knows nothing about the bowl, while other family members recognize it. And also when she's puzzled about a used glass being on her table.

 

[trixie]

That is strange. Especially since it's rather easy to point out she did own the bowl - not just from family members, but from the visitors who frequented the house.

If Patsy was innocent, why would she deny owning the bowl?
Was she so terrified at this point of being connected to the crime that she lied about something so innocuous?
Did she forget about the bowl?

Since I haven't seen the raw statement - did she deny owning the bowl, or deny knowing where the bowl came from?

If you've read all the police interviews you've read her statement, you just don't remember. I don't know which one it is but she was looking at photographs they were handing her and she didn't recognise anything on the table and said she wouldn't do a "set-up" like that. And she didn't recognise the bowl and said she didn't have any pineapple in the house. (Paraphrasing)

 

[trixie]

Do people really let 10-year-old boys drink tea after 10pm at night? Isn't the caffeine a problem? (Just wondering. Tea isn't something I'd give a child that age.)

Yeah, but I sincerely doubt it happened anyway so.........

 

[Lurker Steve]

Yeah, but I sincerely doubt it happened anyway so.........

I drank 'coffee milk' (basically weaked iced coffee) as a kid. Don't think they let me drink it after supper, though.

 

[UKGuy]

Hi there...am new to this forum here. I remember the Ramsey case back when it first came about, though I've had a revived interest in it in light of the recent developments (although unless something big happens that makes all the pieces fit together, I personally doubt the validity of the Karr suspect actually being the murderer of JonBenet.)
Bear with me if I go over ground too well covered already.

In reading through various things, something I focused in upon was the objects on the breakfast table. The bowl of pineapple is well known and as I've seen, well discussed. Was a small bowl with fresh pinapple in it, but also a sterling silver spoon that was disproportionate to the bowl's size.
I believe only Patsy and Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl, and not JonBenet's. I presume JonBenet's fingerprints also were not on the spoon.
Since JonBenet did eat pineapple from that bowl shortly before her death, it is suggestive she ate with her bare hands (which one can certainly do with fresh pineapple)...or if she did use a utensil, it was either missing, or put somewhere (wherever dirty silverware went, I suppose).

There was also a box of kleenex on the table. Whether this has any relevance or not can't be said, I suppose. But...perhaps the tissues were used as napkins by whoever was eating the pineapple (JonBenet eating with her bare hands?)?

Finally, there was a "water glass" with a used teabag in it, suggesting someone drank tea from it...and as well, was drinking tea as JonBenet ate the pineapple (the bowl and the glass I believe were on different parts of the table, as if two people were sitting at it).
JonBenet's fingerprints were not on it...I believe only Pasty's and Burke's was.

I myself haven't seen a lot about the tea glass...does anyone know if it was ever tested for DNA? Certainly someone was drinking from it...and who knows who that might have been. Could have been a family member...or the killer. And if a family member was guilty or involved...well, it certainly is curious...as there should have been DNA on the glass.

Why in the world was JonBenet sitting at the breakfast table eating pineapple in the middle of Christmas night, and who was sitting with her and drinking tea?
I believe this event in the timespan of the murder is very key...because according to the parents, they claimed didn't know of the pineapple on the table or anything else on the table evidently (much less anything else that happened that night)
Either there's lying going on...or something more.

In any case...it's quite odd for a girl her age to be sitting up late like that and on Christmas night too when she was supposed to get up early the next day. Especially considering she evidently died between 10PM and 6AM, from what I've read.

SleuthingSleuth,

I think it was confirmed recently that Burke's fingerprints were discovered on the water glass.

There are three interesting ways to interpret the evidence. Either the circumstances suggest a benign domestic snack, with Patsy organising, or the items are unrelated, and have arrived on table by chance and circumstance, or an intruder sat JonBenet and Burke down for a late night snack, prior to sending Burke to his bed, then proceeeding to sexually assault and kill JonBenet?

There appears to be no forensic evidence from the kitchen, disregarding the flashlight, pointing to an intruder? If an intruder wore gloves then this would become apparent when the relevant kitchen items were tested e.g. the pineapple bowl would be covered in smudges, but can we assume that any intruder never wore any gloves since the flashlight and its batteries were wiped clean?

Also why does the bowl have to be filled with pineapple just to give JonBenet a snack, would it not be chilled straight from the fridge?

There is another plausible interpretation that does not involve Burke, or an intruder, but has JonBenet consuming the pineapple at another location in the house!


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