A novelist's take on the Routier case.

[Goody]

I'm very new here; I haven't read any books yet. What are the books? I don't really think I should be posting (although I already have!) until I've done some reading. Thanks.

Off topic here for a second......Nehemiah is an American Indian name, isn't it? Is it the same name that the girl on Big Brother had last season? Sorry. Couldn't resist the urge to ask.

 

[Goody]

I believe that a false guilty result is possible. I think that's one of the reasons that lie detector tests are not admissible in court. .

I heard a LE discussion on this the other day and they said there were too many variances in the polygraph to be admissable in court. One, is the opinion of the tester. Another tester cannot read the test results and offer an opinion because the tester kind of sets up the basis which may vary from one tester to another, from one test to another. It is not like a fingerprint where you can count lines and swirls and the actual print stays the same. Or a DNA test where the bars stay the same, where one tester can look at another tester's results and offer an opinion because the results are consistent. I hope I explained that clearly enough.

 

[IrishMist]

Looking at the Routier case from the perspective of a novelist, I have difficulty believing in Darlie's innocence

For example, if I were to have written the Routier story as a novel (with an innocent Darlie and an intruder-murderer) and submitted it to a publisher, the story probably would have been rejected. In the world of fiction, your characters must always have reasonable and logical motives for their actions. If that isn't present, a publisher generally will reject or send the story back for a rewrite. The technical term in fiction is "verisimilitude," that is, creating a believable simulation of reality. Most editors would consider a Darlie-innocent plotline to be unbelievable.

I make up stories for a living, and the intruder story sounds made up to me. For one thing, it has gone through too many "rewrites" (16 versions). For another, an intruder attacking two little boys in such a violent manner, while ignoring the healthy adults makes no sense. That kind of stabbing is a very up close and personal act and usually is connected with rage. No burglar, rapist, or even pedophile sexual predator with any sense of self-preservation (or desire to continue his illegal acts) is going to take the risk of doing what the so-called intruder did.

Granted, life is not fiction, and rational people do irrational things all the time. However, I don't find Darlie's story believable. I've read most of the books (except MTJD, which I have, but have not had time to read, although I have reviewed the photos). I'm currently reading the trial transcripts. So far, I haven't seen anything to change my mind.

Just the humble opinion of a fiction writer.

Jim

Hi Jim,
I'm not a professional writer, but sometimes I write out these stories to help me get things straight in my mind.
Now, here's the funny part-- I could write one that made sense based on an intruder, but couldn't write one that made sense based on Darlie doing it, and I really lean toward her guilt!!
Where I got stuck was her reason. I couldn't get the beginning down.
The middle, the end, yeah, that all flowed. But the start? I couldn't come up with a believable beginning...

Also- a general comment about lie detector tests...
I think that another reason they are inadmissable is the fact that if you believe what you are saying, you will pass.
So if you really believed you were Santa Clause, you would pass a lie detector test asking if you were Santa Clause.

 

[cami]

Off topic here for a second......Nehemiah is an American Indian name, isn't it? Is it the same name that the girl on Big Brother had last season? Sorry. Couldn't resist the urge to ask.

NO, she was Nikomis, not Nehemiah.

 

[JimPence]

Hi Jim,
I'm not a professional writer, but sometimes I write out these stories to help me get things straight in my mind.
Now, here's the funny part-- I could write one that made sense based on an intruder, but couldn't write one that made sense based on Darlie doing it, and I really lean toward her guilt!!
Where I got stuck was her reason. I couldn't get the beginning down.
The middle, the end, yeah, that all flowed. But the start? I couldn't come up with a believable beginning...

Well, IrishMist, I have to give you that one. To tell the truth, nothing about this case makes sense to me, especially the beginning. Being a parent, I have a terribly hard time seeing how Darlie could kill those boys. And for that reason, I would really, really like to believe her story. But her story just has too many holes and contradictions, and it's changed too many times for me to buy it.

Also- a general comment about lie detector tests...
I think that another reason they are inadmissable is the fact that if you believe what you are saying, you will pass.
So if you really believed you were Santa Clause, you would pass a lie detector test asking if you were Santa Clause.

Good point. A really good liar can pass a lie detector test. :liar:

Jim

 

[Goody]

Hi Jim,
I'm not a professional writer, but sometimes I write out these stories to help me get things straight in my mind.
Now, here's the funny part-- I could write one that made sense based on an intruder, but couldn't write one that made sense based on Darlie doing it, and I really lean toward her guilt!!
Where I got stuck was her reason. I couldn't get the beginning down.
The middle, the end, yeah, that all flowed. But the start? I couldn't come up with a believable beginning...

I understand your dilema, Irish, but how did you make the intruder fit? I could never do that. The problem I had with this case is I couldn't make the majority of the pieces fit in ANY scenario.

Remember that old Sherlock Holmes quote? If you rule out the imporssible, what you have left, no matter how improbable, is probably what happened. Not word-for-word here, but I think that is the essence of it.

 

[IrishMist]

I understand your dilema, Irish, but how did you make the intruder fit? I could never do that. The problem I had with this case is I couldn't make the majority of the pieces fit in ANY scenario.

Remember that old Sherlock Holmes quote? If you rule out the imporssible, what you have left, no matter how improbable, is probably what happened. Not word-for-word here, but I think that is the essence of it.

Hi Goody,
Yeah, I know that quote... and no, the words aren't exactly right, but yes, that is the essence of it.

I had the intruder hyped up on coke, and using a baggie of propane to disable her. Originally, he was the one set up to rob the house, but he decided to sexually assault Darlie while he was at it...
Kind of a "take Darin down a peg or two" type of thing.
Figuring they couldn't bust him without busting themselves.

Kinda like robbing a dealer... what are they gonna do? Call the cops??
In a case like that, you have to deal with the dealer sending someone after you, but in the Routier's case, the intruder was more protected and street savy than them. Is this making sense to you? Darin had to ask around for someone to rob his house. (which is stupid) He obviously didn't have contacts in that "world."

One time, someone put GHB in my drink at a bar.
What I remember sounds alot like how Darlie remembered stuff... kind of a feeling of being underwater-- aware, and not aware all at once... with a period of no memory whatsoever.
When it wore off, it was gradual, but fairly fast, and I was fine!!

I used propane because it's an easy to get ahold of inhalent, no way to test for it in someone's system, and it's disabling for short periods of time.

When you are hyped up on coke, you are edgy to the extreme, yet able to focus. Intense would be a good way to put it. But it also makes you think you can do anything, like maybe assault a woman with her children laying nearby... in my story, he had her disabled, and took off her panties, very focused on that, when one of the children appeared next to him, freaking him out, and the killings began.

It was done, he was grabbing his baggie, she started coming to, and to her, she thought she was fighting him... but it's like trying to punch someone under water... he quickly sliced her throat to kill her and got out.

Now, that's going with Darlie's earliest stories...

Like I said, I can write one where she's the killer, too, but have a hard time starting it. After reading testimony, and considering her state of mind, it's starting to gel for me.

I have witnessed RAGE, and RAGE that came out of (to me) nowhere... so I know that it's possible.

So, there ya go. Long answer to a short question!

 

[Nehemiah]

Off topic here for a second......Nehemiah is an American Indian name, isn't it? Is it the same name that the girl on Big Brother had last season? Sorry. Couldn't resist the urge to ask.

I really don't know about that! Interesting, though. I chose it because Nehemiah is my favorite Old Testament Bible character.

 

[Goody]

I really don't know about that! Interesting, though. I chose it because Nehemiah is my favorite Old Testament Bible character.

Well, that definitely does not sound very American Indian, does it?
hhahahahahhaahhah!

 

[Goody]

Hi Goody,
Yeah, I know that quote... and no, the words aren't exactly right, but yes, that is the essence of it.

I had the intruder hyped up on coke, and using a baggie of propane to disable her. Originally, he was the one set up to rob the house, but he decided to sexually assault Darlie while he was at it...
Kind of a "take Darin down a peg or two" type of thing.
Figuring they couldn't bust him without busting themselves.

Kinda like robbing a dealer... what are they gonna do? Call the cops??
In a case like that, you have to deal with the dealer sending someone after you, but in the Routier's case, the intruder was more protected and street savy than them. Is this making sense to you? Darin had to ask around for someone to rob his house. (which is stupid) He obviously didn't have contacts in that "world."

One time, someone put GHB in my drink at a bar.
What I remember sounds alot like how Darlie remembered stuff... kind of a feeling of being underwater-- aware, and not aware all at once... with a period of no memory whatsoever.
When it wore off, it was gradual, but fairly fast, and I was fine!!

I used propane because it's an easy to get ahold of inhalent, no way to test for it in someone's system, and it's disabling for short periods of time.

When you are hyped up on coke, you are edgy to the extreme, yet able to focus. Intense would be a good way to put it. But it also makes you think you can do anything, like maybe assault a woman with her children laying nearby... in my story, he had her disabled, and took off her panties, very focused on that, when one of the children appeared next to him, freaking him out, and the killings began.

It was done, he was grabbing his baggie, she started coming to, and to her, she thought she was fighting him... but it's like trying to punch someone under water... he quickly sliced her throat to kill her and got out.

Now, that's going with Darlie's earliest stories...

Like I said, I can write one where she's the killer, too, but have a hard time starting it. After reading testimony, and considering her state of mind, it's starting to gel for me.

I have witnessed RAGE, and RAGE that came out of (to me) nowhere... so I know that it's possible.

So, there ya go. Long answer to a short question!

Well, just for fun, let me counter your intruder theory just a little. For starters, how does a guy hopped up on coke get thru a cluttered garage in the dark without tripping over stuff and waking Darin, maybe Darlie, too?

If he came in with the baggie of propane, he must have come prepared to rape because a burglar sure wouldn't use a baggie of propane gas as his weapon of choice under normal circumstances, would he? And if Darin was paying this guy to rob his house, why would the guy want to take him down a peg or two? That leans a little toward grudge, I think. So why would the guy have a grudge against Darin, esp the kind that make a rapist out of a burglar? I am assuming this guy would not be going around raping women as a general rule. So what motive could be strong enough to turn someone into a rapist who would not normally rape?

Also, this burglar turned rapist walks right past Darlie's jewelry, her wallet with cash and credit cards, and takes nothing at all. Did he forget what he was after?

Interesting information about propane. I did not know that. Thanks.

Good observation about Darin not having contacts in the criminal world. You are absolutely right. If he did, he would not have to put word out that he needed someone to rob his house. He would just go to someone he believed would do it and ask them directly. I hadn't thought of that, but it is an excellent point.

In your theory on the rape, I guess the guy didn't make it to completion because they found no evidence of rape at the hospital. Also, if he stops to kill the boys, then comes back to her, wouldn't some of their blood be on the couch as he and Darlie struggled. He was bound to have some on his hands. Not likely he escaped having any of their blood on him at all.

Another thing that doesn't support the struggle on the couch theory is that there are no stab wounds, no knicks in the vinyl upholstery, so we have to believe that he never swung the knife at her and missed, or that she never successfully diverted the knife, pushing it away from her and into the couch upholstery. Even if her attempts are weak, she'd likely make some contact with him and the knife, likely succeed in some of those efforts.

How does he make a clean sweep of the knife from under her ear down across her neck and across her (upper)chest and into her shoulder if Darlie is floundering around. Even if she was unsuccessful in defending herself (which I doubt even if she were fuzzy from a gas wearing off), she'd have to be perfectly still for him to make such a clean, uninterrupted cut on her neck.

I agree, when thinking of a scenario with Darlie as the killer, it is difficult to find a starting point, esp if you are trying to make it a spur of the moment act of passion. It is that part of the night that we have no information on, or certainly not enough to build a solid theory on. Too many holes.

 

[IrishMist]

Well, just for fun, let me counter your intruder theory just a little. For starters, how does a guy hopped up on coke get thru a cluttered garage in the dark without tripping over stuff and waking Darin, maybe Darlie, too?

And why didn't that yappy dog bark it's head off, waking Darin up?? Darin could have given him a key, or agreed to leave the front door unlocked, and the slicing of the screen was just for looks...
BUT! Darling Darlie saw him exit through the utility room... which throws a wrench in my story AND hers.
If you're hyped up, panicked, freaked out, seems natural to go out not only the way you came in, but the most direct route out-- the front door.

If he came in with the baggie of propane, he must have come prepared to rape because a burglar sure wouldn't use a baggie of propane gas as his weapon of choice under normal circumstances, would he?

Darin may have warned him that she's been sleeping on the couch alot, and that he should leave and come a different night if that's the case.

And if Darin was paying this guy to rob his house, why would the guy want to take him down a peg or two? That leans a little toward grudge, I think. So why would the guy have a grudge against Darin, esp the kind that make a rapist out of a burglar? I am assuming this guy would not be going around raping women as a general rule. So what motive could be strong enough to turn someone into a rapist who would not normally rape?

It depends on Darin's attitude with the guy. In my story, Darin acted like he was "Mr. Mobster." Doing his wife, right under his nose, in his own house... is kinda like a "I'M running this show!" or "Screw you Mr. Bigshot!"
If Darin talked DOWN to him, wasn't respectful of who he is, it would piss the guy off. I'm having a real hard time putting this into words, here.

As far as burglar into rapist...
Some people aren't depraved in only one way. And Darin obviously didn't know this guy.
You could find someone who would break into your house for money. More than one person, actually... but if you don't know them, you don't know how far they'd go if the opportunity arose. Darin may have gotten in over his head. Just because Darin hired him to rob the house, doesn't mean he wasn't getting more than he bargained for...

Also, this burglar turned rapist walks right past Darlie's jewelry, her wallet with cash and credit cards, and takes nothing at all. Did he forget what he was after?

Yes.

Interesting information about propane. I did not know that. Thanks.

It amazes me sometimes what people will do to themselves and others...

Good observation about Darin not having contacts in the criminal world. You are absolutely right. If he did, he would not have to put word out that he needed someone to rob his house. He would just go to someone he believed would do it and ask them directly. I hadn't thought of that, but it is an excellent point.

I think I answered that above.

In your theory on the rape, I guess the guy didn't make it to completion because they found no evidence of rape at the hospital. Also, if he stops to kill the boys, then comes back to her, wouldn't some of their blood be on the couch as he and Darlie struggled. He was bound to have some on his hands. Not likely he escaped having any of their blood on him at all.

In my story, no, he didn't make it to completion.
And that is a problem, seems like there would be SOME kind of blood trail.
Plus, if you went through that screen-- even if you managed to get through without leaving blood or a fingerprint, wouldn't the edges of the cut area catch your clothing? You know what I mean? Snag your clothing, that's what I'm saying. A hair, something??

Another thing that doesn't support the struggle on the couch theory is that there are no stab wounds, no knicks in the vinyl upholstery, so we have to believe that he never swung the knife at her and missed, or that she never successfully diverted the knife, pushing it away from her and into the couch upholstery. Even if her attempts are weak, she'd likely make some contact with him and the knife, likely succeed in some of those efforts.

This I don't agree with. If she was still groggy, she'd be pretty easy to fend off. I think he could EASILY just reach over and slice her throat. Especially when he was so much bigger than her.

How does he make a clean sweep of the knife from under her ear down across her neck and across her (upper)chest and into her shoulder if Darlie is floundering around. Even if she was unsuccessful in defending herself (which I doubt even if she were fuzzy from a gas wearing off), she'd have to be perfectly still for him to make such a clean, uninterrupted cut on her neck.

But it wasn't a clean cut. It showed signs of hesitation. Which actually disproves my story, cuz there wouldn't be hesitation, would there? Not if, according to my story, he reached over and SLICE, sliced her neck? I don't know enough about stab wounds. Think about the way she said she was laying on the couch. If he was kneeling next to her, and just reached over and did it, which direction would the slice go? Seems like it would go bottom left to upper right, doesn't it? I get confused when I ponder that one.

I agree, when thinking of a scenario with Darlie as the killer, it is difficult to find a starting point, esp if you are trying to make it a spur of the moment act of passion. It is that part of the night that we have no information on, or certainly not enough to build a solid theory on. Too many holes.

Too many holes, either way. I'd say, overall, if you skip the story, and just go by the evidence, it looks like Darlie did it. I'd like to come up with a story that fills the holes. Why? I don't know. Just do.
I read on here somewhere that logic won't necessarily apply in trying to figure this case out. (or something along those lines, I apologize to whomever I'm misquoting!!)
And that's obviously the case. The wounds on the boys indicate high emotion. So in trying to figure this out, we need to look at it from that point of view.
Either an intruder that's totally hyped up, or a parent that's gone off the edge.

 

[JimPence]

Hey, y'all are pretty good writing up these stories. I could use your help on my next novel!

Jim

 

[IrishMist]

Hey, y'all are pretty good writing up these stories. I could use your help on my next novel!

Jim

Ok. Let's talk percentages...