A question about JB's head wound

[Ravyn]

And I'm wondering if PR had any childhood trauma that has not came to light heck I'm reading all the post and I would like some input plz..

 

[Ames]

About the head wound: the autopsy states there was no external scalp trauma.
I find it hard to believe had that been done by accident (unlikely because of the force) it would be impossible for non medical persons to make the determination that it was near fatal, or could render someone brain dead or any of the other suggestions that are thrown around. Not a motive for strangulation staging imo.

Ziggy, her skull had been displaced. IOW..it knocked a portion of the bone loose. If that is not near fatal, or cause someone to be brain dead.....then I don't know what is.

 

[ziggy]

Ziggy, her skull had been displaced. IOW..it knocked a portion of the bone loose. If that is not near fatal, or cause someone to be brain dead.....then I don't know what is.

I am not questioning the severity of the injury. I am questioning a lay person's ability to asses how bad it was without any exterior evidence. A person can be knocked unconscious with much less severe trauma. How would you know?

Some have mentioned the sound, yet we don't know exactly how loud that sound would be scientifically or if it would just be more like a thud, the sound absorbed by tissue and matter.

I just question those who theorize that PR though she was going to be brain dead so she decided to finish her off by strangling her and stage a kidnapping/sex crime.

It just seems unlikely that kind of conclusion could be drawn with no outward signs of the injury or its severity.

 

[Ames]

I am not questioning the severity of the injury. I am questioning a lay person's ability to asses how bad it was without any exterior evidence. A person can be knocked unconscious with much less severe trauma. How would you know?

Some have mentioned the sound, yet we don't know exactly how loud that sound would be scientifically or if it would just be more like a thud, the sound absorbed by tissue and matter.

I just question those who theorize that PR though she was going to be brain dead so she decided to finish her off by strangling her and stage a kidnapping/sex crime.

It just seems unlikely that kind of conclusion could be drawn with no outward signs of the injury or its severity.

Oh okay...gotcha!

I wasn't there, so I don't know this for sure...BUT...Patsy could have felt of JB's head, and felt the displacement. I know if one of my children hit their head, the first thing that I do, is feel for a lump. Now, I do not believe that JB was hit over the head with a flashlight. IMO...Patsy, was severely upset with JB for wetting the bed, on a night when Patsy had packing to do, and they had to get up early for their trip. Patsy DID have some drinks over at the White's party, so she could have been PO'd easier than usual. Anyway, I believe that she was accidently shoved...as in, Patsy could have shoved her, but didn't mean for her to lose her balance and fall onto the side of the tub..or the toilet. I am sure that it knocked JB unconsious. It HAD to have...with that sort of displacement. Patsy ran to her, and felt of her head...and after feeling the displacement, and seeing blood coming from JB's nose ( you can google this if you want...but, in the case of a severe head wound...there is always bleeding from the ears, nose, or mouth...or ALL THREE), and seeing that JB was lifeless, IMO...she believed that she had killed her. I believe that Patsy screamed...and THIS is the scream that the neighbor MS heard. I then believe that John came running, when he heard Patsy screamed...and then they panicked...and the staging began. I do not for one second, believe that Patsy INTENTIONALLY killed her daughter...or intentionally struck JB in the head with any type of object. Some RDI's will disagree with me on this.

 

[DeeDee249]

I am not questioning the severity of the injury. I am questioning a lay person's ability to asses how bad it was without any exterior evidence. A person can be knocked unconscious with much less severe trauma. How would you know?

Some have mentioned the sound, yet we don't know exactly how loud that sound would be scientifically or if it would just be more like a thud, the sound absorbed by tissue and matter.

I just question those who theorize that PR though she was going to be brain dead so she decided to finish her off by strangling her and stage a kidnapping/sex crime.

It just seems unlikely that kind of conclusion could be drawn with no outward signs of the injury or its severity.

I for one, do NOT think they decided to "finish her off" by strangling her. I think they thought she was dead or dying- she probably was rendered instantly comatose, and her breathing was so shallow as to be unnoticed. She'd have been pale and cool (in shock). To them she was dead.
But there was nothing visible that could have caused her death. No blood, no wound. They weren't stupid people. They knew there'd be an autopsy. They had to make it look like there was a cause of death that they could have had nothing to do with.

 

[ziggy]

Oh okay...gotcha!

I wasn't there, so I don't know this for sure...BUT...Patsy could have felt of JB's head, and felt the displacement. I know if one of my children hit their head, the first thing that I do, is feel for a lump. Now, I do not believe that JB was hit over the head with a flashlight. IMO...Patsy, was severely upset with JB for wetting the bed, on a night when Patsy had packing to do, and they had to get up early for their trip. Patsy DID have some drinks over at the White's party, so she could have been PO'd easier than usual. Anyway, I believe that she was accidently shoved...as in, Patsy could have shoved her, but didn't mean for her to lose her balance and fall onto the side of the tub..or the toilet. I am sure that it knocked JB unconsious. It HAD to have...with that sort of displacement. Patsy ran to her, and felt of her head...and after feeling the displacement, and seeing blood coming from JB's nose ( you can google this if you want...but, in the case of a severe head wound...there is always bleeding from the ears, nose, or mouth...or ALL THREE), and seeing that JB was lifeless, IMO...she believed that she had killed her. I believe that Patsy screamed...and THIS is the scream that the neighbor MS heard. I then believe that John came running, when he heard Patsy screamed...and then they panicked...and the staging began. I do not for one second, believe that Patsy INTENTIONALLY killed her daughter...or intentionally struck JB in the head with any type of object. Some RDI's will disagree with me on this.

It has been discussed with much frequency that the weight of a child of her size falling, even if being pushed hard could not have done that type of damage. It would have had to be a blow rendered.

Do you have any source for a forensics opinion that she could have hit her head on say, the tub, and received such an injury?

I wonder, what would that actually feel like if looking for a bump? Because of brain matter, there would not be a hole as we see in the pictures would there?

 

[ziggy]

I for one, do NOT think they decided to "finish her off" by strangling her. I think they thought she was dead or dying- she probably was rendered instantly comatose, and her breathing was so shallow as to be unnoticed. She'd have been pale and cool (in shock). To them she was dead.
But there was nothing visible that could have caused her death. No blood, no wound. They weren't stupid people. They knew there'd be an autopsy. They had to make it look like there was a cause of death that they could have had nothing to do with.

Hmm. Ames thinks there would have been blood coming from her nose or mouth. Would any fluid from the brain be amber colored and would it darken as it dried like blood does?

I'm sure her breathing could have been very shallow. I still can't see the death diagnosis being made. If they thought she was dying, then yes, they were attempting to finish her off, or just let her die while they were doing it.

They knew there would be an autopsy and that the head wound would be found too. They could have staged a much better and much easier scenario instead of the very complicated and intricate one. There was no need for a garrote; a simple cord ligature would have sufficed. They could have left the flashlight next to the body to show that it was the murder weapon and simply left her naked instead of re-dressed.

If they were going to stage it, they would have also made it more obvious that the security of the home had been breached and would not have said they were sure the doors were locked. They would have said, wow, we may have overlooked that and that is how the SOB got it...LOOK!!

 

[DeeDee249]

Hmm. Ames thinks there would have been blood coming from her nose or mouth. Would any fluid from the brain be amber colored and would it darken as it dried like blood does?

I'm sure her breathing could have been very shallow. I still can't see the death diagnosis being made. If they thought she was dying, then yes, they were attempting to finish her off, or just let her die while they were doing it.

They knew there would be an autopsy and that the head wound would be found too. They could have staged a much better and much easier scenario instead of the very complicated and intricate one. There was no need for a garrote; a simple cord ligature would have sufficed. They could have left the flashlight next to the body to show that it was the murder weapon and simply left her naked instead of re-dressed.

If they were going to stage it, they would have also made it more obvious that the security of the home had been breached and would not have said they were sure the doors were locked. They would have said, wow, we may have overlooked that and that is how the SOB got it...LOOK!!

I am not so sure the Rs knew there was a hole like that in her skull, especially with no gash or wound. I don't think they were trying to cover a hole in the skull with a strangulation. I think they made a strangulation to provide a cause of death.
I think the R did not expect the autopsy to show the skull fracture or the pineapple in her stomach OR the blood that had been wiped from her thighs/pubic area. I don't think they expected such a fuss to be made over the fact that her panties were 2 sized too big.
I think there WERE aware that the autopsy might show some vaginal "issues" not normal for a 6-year old girl. So pedophile/kidnapper/murderer just fit the bill.

Her brain was not compromised- no brain matter leaked. The blood was restricted to the subdural and subarachnoid area of the brain, limited to bleeding of the dura mater, etc. The MILD swelling and flattening show that the brain did not have the time to develop the more severe swelling that such a bash would have produced if she had lived.
Blood could certainly have oozed from her nose and mouth. Strangulation can cause that too.

 

[Ames]

It has been discussed with much frequency that the weight of a child of her size falling, even if being pushed hard could not have done that type of damage. It would have had to be a blow rendered.

Do you have any source for a forensics opinion that she could have hit her head on say, the tub, and received such an injury?

I wonder, what would that actually feel like if looking for a bump? Because of brain matter, there would not be a hole as we see in the pictures would there?

I have read that before (what I have highlighted in red, in your post)...but, I disagree. Of course...I am not an expert...but, if you Google it, you will find that a child's skull is not as thick or as hard as an adults. Children's skulls have been fractured, just from falling a few inches off of a bike, so imagine what being shoved into something as hard as a tub would do. I have posted more than a few articles about this on FFJ, and I will dig them up again, if you would like. There is also an article about...a baby that fell over onto a RATTLE in his crib, and it fractured his skull..and he died. At first they thought that he had died of child abuse, but the parents swore they were innocent. They were found not guilty, after expert testimony. This is on the internet too...I posted the article about the baby over at FFJ, too.

 

[Ames]

Hmm. Ames thinks there would have been blood coming from her nose or mouth. Would any fluid from the brain be amber colored and would it darken as it dried like blood does?

I'm sure her breathing could have been very shallow. I still can't see the death diagnosis being made. If they thought she was dying, then yes, they were attempting to finish her off, or just let her die while they were doing it.

They knew there would be an autopsy and that the head wound would be found too. They could have staged a much better and much easier scenario instead of the very complicated and intricate one. There was no need for a garrote; a simple cord ligature would have sufficed. They could have left the flashlight next to the body to show that it was the murder weapon and simply left her naked instead of re-dressed.

If they were going to stage it, they would have also made it more obvious that the security of the home had been breached and would not have said they were sure the doors were locked. They would have said, wow, we may have overlooked that and that is how the SOB got it...LOOK!!

I..for one...do not believe that she was dying. IMO...they believed that she was already dead, and I also believe that Patsy may have felt of her head. No, you are right...she wouldn't have felt the hole in her skull, but she could have felt the crack, it was in the shape of a triangle...and I am sure that it swelled up, and she probably developed a huge lump there, very quickly.

The reason that they just didn't just leave her there naked...is because she was STILL their daughter, and IMO...they loved her very much. They couldn't just leave her there naked....(that is something that a REAL intruder would have done), so they redressed her and wrapped her "lovingly, papoose style", and those are John's words from his 98 interview. And that is something that an intruder would NOT have done. They probably didn't think far enough ahead to unlock a door, and say...YES...LOOK! That is how he must have gotten in. That is why they used the basement window scenario. It actually wasn't a true garotte...and the experts agree with me. It was done by someone that didn't know how to make one, iow.

 

[Zak]

Over the years I have read about the case from many sites, some including court transcripts. Helena, whom you refer to, was nothing but a druggie. At one point she said she was there, then she recanted and this went on and on until her death.
Ummm, that has been completely proven to be untrue because she confessed to the prosecutor Blackburn (who has since been convicted of all kinds of felonies) and he threatened that if she admitted that to the MacDonald jury the next day he would prosecute her for murder. It has been testified to and the court has held that Britt (on the proscution team and witness who signed sworn affidavit) is a reliable witness. You obviously are claiming to have read what you have not.
There has been proven prosecutorial misconduct so the transcripts are fraudulent documents you rely on.

Your reply makes it very apparent you have not done your homework.
Most of the evidence in the trial was found to be bogus including that smoking gun the folded pajama top.

And it is much, much more than Helen saying she was there. The synthetic hair clutched in Colette's hand was from a blonde wig Helen had. There were fraudulent reports that it was from a doll, but the truth finally came to light and no dolls were made with that saran type plastic, BUT WIGS WERE.
And, they found candle wax drippings in the apt. they could not link to any candle the MacDonald's had. In addition one of the first officers on the way to the scene saw a woman with a floppy hat standing in the rain at 3:00 a.m. near the M. home. He was disuaded from testifying and it goes on and on. I won't go on because me thinks your arse might get sore from my spanking

Edited: Sorry Zak - I posted this as if you were SuperDave.
Seriously, I tried reading any opposition to the new documents and briefs drafted by the IP, but there aren't many coming to the defense of that sorry prosecution.

Lets agree to disagree about Mac. There is another site you should take a look at if you are really interested in the case. Its www.jefferymacdonaldcase.com. Lots of reading there. And I actually have read much about the case, believe it or not, even from Mac's website.

 

[BBB167893]

Well, I just finished hours of reading everything new in the Jeffrey MacDonald case.

The last thing I'd read that I paid much attention to was that Joe McGuinnes book and now I know what a joke that was!

I think if you read the entire case and how the army, judge, prosecution etc., withheld evidence from the defense you can see railroading in action.

New DNA testing, The Innocence Project and finally a guy coming forward to admit that Helen told the prosecutor she was one of the hippies there the night of the murders and was threatened to not say that to the jury by the prosecutor - these bring the hope of a new and more fair trial.

SuperDave - thanks for the suggestion. This case proves how poorly it can go for a bloke if the investigation sets out to prove he did it.

I see the parallel in the inexperienced investigator first on the scene and the need for the authorities to demonize their "suspect" in order to prove their case instead of following the evidence. The process was as corrupt as it gets for that poor guy.

I believe this supports my post. Jeffrey MacDonald is most likely innocent and he had no prior abuse or mental problems nor did he have a drug problem as suggested in the book. That was a lie and is supported by the testing they did for drugs the night of the murder.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/family/jmacdonald/1.html

http://www.themacdonaldcase.org/

Oy, vey.

 

[BBB167893]

Now I'm all in a twitter about MacDonald.

SuperDave: dare you to read the actual court documents as I have and especially this most recent brief:

http://www.themacdonaldcase.org/Images/Amicus_brief_fnl2.pdf

and then I double dare you to explain to me how you think MacDonald got a fair trial and is guilty.

Prison's full of people who swear they didn't do it, ziggy. Funny, isn't it? There's a very good article on this case from wikipedia.org.

Anyway, hate to get so OT, but your assertion that Jeffrey MacDonald would be a good example is hereby OVERTURNED!!!

Don't count your acquittals before their handed down.

(makes me wonder if you actually read up on this stuff)

Try me.

 

[BBB167893]

And I'm wondering if PR had any childhood trauma that has not came to light heck I'm reading all the post and I would like some input plz..

I have often wondered that myself. But anything I put down would be spitballing.

 

[BBB167893]

They knew there would be an autopsy and that the head wound would be found too. They could have staged a much better and much easier scenario instead of the very complicated and intricate one. There was no need for a garrote; a simple cord ligature would have sufficed.

Simple wouldn't work. JB was spectacular in life. She had to be spectacular in death.

They could have left the flashlight next to the body to show that it was the murder weapon and simply left her naked instead of re-dressed.

That would not do at all.

If they were going to stage it, they would have also made it more obvious that the security of the home had been breached and would not have said they were sure the doors were locked. They would have said, wow, we may have overlooked that and that is how the SOB got it...LOOK!!

That would not have worked. The note was the focal point of the staging. It had to be found FIRST. Nothing else could look out of place. They couldn't get up and say "wow, it's cold in here," to my way of thinking.

This is all old stuff to me.