Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #181

[AugustWest]

One would think RA knows if he was Mirandized or not for that 2nd interview.
I didn't see - in the memo to suppress 2nd interview - a direct assertion from RA that he wasn't Mirandized - per his own recollection of the 2nd interview?

RA arranged to come pick up his car, and he was asked to come in for a few questions. He agreed.
What would have happened had RA said "no, thank you", just here for the car? Was that 2nd interview critical to the arrest?

IMO, In advance of that 2nd interview: search done, car done, casing match done, timeline done with eyewitnesses listed. The 2nd interview was a gravy hunt. I'm curious if the car was released/returned to the Allens (KA) that day as they'd believe was the arrangement?

It seems LE had every intention of arresting RA upon his arrival at the station - whether he consented to that extra interview or not. If that's the case, does this change LE's obligation prior to that 2nd interview? Raise the notice bar at all?

Is this advanced LE intent - that there would be no car delivered to RA, rather RA would be delivering himself for arrest ... was the "custodial" argument?

Bingo! That is the argument the defense is making. The police had no intent to let him leave the interrogation, acted as such, so it was a custodial interview, requiring Miranda. They have precedent cited in the motion that indicates the SCION has considered this fact pattern as a violation of one's civil rights.

 

[Emma Peel]

After the first October interview when they showed up with a warrant. A smart person would have lawyered up that day. Not continually calling to find out when they could pick their car up. Let alone drive up there to grab it like it was some regular impound issue.

I feel there had to be some evidence in the veh because RA was arrested and Kathy didn't leave with the car.

Agree with you as to everyone should lawyer up under such conditions, maybe even sooner.

That being said ... we regularly see that many people are not sophisticated enough to understand that they shouldn't "just agree to come in and interview in order to help out the police" without an attorney present. It's not uncommon. It could even be the norm.

Given that lawyers are expensive and most don't have a lawyer on call ... and given that "unsophisticated but helpful" is human nature ... who is more likely to lawyer up?

The consciousness-of-guilt guy that should be concerned and needs protections?

Or the regular unsophisticated guy that is fully cooperating, not running, just thinking LE needs to eliminate him b/c he reported as being at the trails 5 years prior, sorry his wife is inconvenienced, (and just starting to worry about his reputation if they start talking to his work, to his friends, expecting apologies)?

For me, the much harder sell is that RA did not lawyer up because he had consciousness of guilt along with pathological levels of brazen overconfidence sprinkled with arrogance.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I think the argument is that he was read his rights during the first interrogation, didn't incriminate himself, then left. No issue there. This was a non-custodial interrogation (which doesn't require Miranda) and the police still felt it necessary to Mirandize RA. We don't want that suppressed.

Then, he returned with his wife, no proof of being re-MIrandized, then locked in a room, denied his car to leave, and coerced into questioning. This flipped the circumstances from a non-custodial interrogation to a custodial one (requiring Miranda). Since he was questioned without a Miranda warning at this time, we want that suppressed. Then they use another Indiana case analogous to RA's to show that Indiana courts in the past have held these circumstances to be violative of his right against self incrimination.

They are attempting a U.S. v. Axsom, 289 F.3d 496 (8th Cir. 2002) argument that physical and psychological restraints were placed on RA, making it custodial, thus requiring Miranda warnings, which weren't given. Interesting.

The interview process I read seems pretty standard for police interrogation. Did it say RA was locked in the room? How did they coerce him to speak? He seemed more than willing to go toe to toe with Holeman including the dreadful cussing and threats against his reputation.

RA seems almost to have two personalities, one for the public persona; quiet, good natured, helpful, local CVS Mgr/Pharm Tech and one behind closed doors; argumentative, angry, secretive, etc.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

What part of "So you do what you need to do, and then, like I said, when you do find this guy, I’ll expect the apology" sounds guilty to you? With zero context, "I'm done" could definitely sound like "My goose is cooked." Thankfully, we have the benefit of the rest of the paragraph for context.

I think the video of the interview will provide the most unbiased context. MOO

 

[Salah11]

The interview process I read seems pretty standard for police interrogation. Did it say RA was locked in the room? How did they coerce him to speak? He seemed more than willing to go toe to toe with Holeman including the dreadful cussing and threats against his reputation.

RA seems almost to have two personalities, one for the public persona; quiet, good natured, helpful, local CVS Mgr/Pharm Tech and one behind closed doors; argumentative, angry, secretive, etc.

JMO

Yep because if he behaved like he did In the interview he wouldn’t have lasted long in his job.

He is definitely a jekyll and hyde IMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

But that's not the one in question....

Point being that he was aware of his Miranda rights and knew he could stop the interview and ask for a lawyer at any time. Oct 13 to Oct 26 - He wouldn't have forgotten what he read and signed within that timeframe.

He wanted to be done when things got tough, but he wanted to know exactly what LE knew more.

MOO

 

[TTF14]

I think the video of the interview will provide the most unbiased context. MOO

Agree. Too bad we will never see it.

 

[TTF14]

Point being that he was aware of his Miranda rights and knew he could stop the interview and ask for a lawyer at any time. Oct 13 to Oct 26 - He wouldn't have forgotten what he read and signed within that timeframe.

He wanted to be done when things got tough, but he wanted to know exactly what LE knew more.

MOO

I don't think we can know what he was aware of or what he knew or what he wanted.

Also, are you saying that his Mirandization from the 13th would have "held over" to the 26th? So he was still Mirandized? I think I'm not following what you're saying.

 

[AugustWest]

The interview process I read seems pretty standard for police interrogation. Did it say RA was locked in the room? How did they coerce him to speak? He seemed more than willing to go toe to toe with Holeman including the dreadful cussing and threats against his reputation.

RA seems almost to have two personalities, one for the public persona; quiet, good natured, helpful, local CVS Mgr/Pharm Tech and one behind closed doors; argumentative, angry, secretive, etc.

JMO

If a person is being accused of a crime they did not commit, of course they would be upset.

And again, it is about custodial vs. non-custodial interrogation, and when it switched from one to another. Whether the interview was standard or not isn't what is determinative here. There are different rules for the two different interrogation types. This argument isn't so much about the facts as about the law.

 

[vinayd]

Just went back to the bullet analysis. Says that was conducted between 10/14-10/19.

Curated Docs of Interest Contained within Other Files - Google Drive

 

[girlhasnoname]

RSBM

You are conflating the two interviews. The first was completely non-custodial, where a Miranda warning was given, even though not required. The second was non-custodial, then turned custodial at some point. During the second there is no proof he was read a Miranda warning, which is required for a custodial interview. The factors you mentioned about interview tactics were listed by the defense to be compared against a former case in Indiana, where the SCION held analogous facts to be violative of the right against self-incrimination. This is more a question of when than what was done. If the second interview was custodial, then you must Mirandize, and in this instance it isn't clear whether RA was.

I'm not conflating the two. He was given and signed a Miranda Rights document in the first interview on Oct 13th. He had full knowledge of what, when and how that worked.

Two weeks later he returned and agreed to answer a 'few more questions' in the second interview. Totally within LE rights to do that probably based upon facts uncovered from his first interview. When things went from friendly to adversarial at times, RA said he was 'done' not that he wanted or required an attorney.

Thank goodness we'll have the video of the interview and not just the words of the D on this for context.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Agree. Too bad we will never see it.

Why wouldn't we see it. I think his interviews with LE will be played for the jury.

MOO

 

[TTF14]

Why wouldn't we see it. I think his interviews with LE will be played for the jury.

MOO

Because the trial isn't being livestreamed. I meant a literal "we"....us here....me.

 

[Jade]

"We also believe this person is from Delphi — currently or has previously lived here, visits Delphi on a regular basis or works here," Carter said.
[…]
Carter kept speaking directly to the killer, whether he was there in a standing-room-only crowd that lined up to get in to witness the announcement or not: "We likely have interviewed you or someone close to you. We know that this is about power to you, and you want to know what we know. And one day you will. A question to you: What will those closest to you think of when they find out that you brutally murdered two little girls?"

Delphi murders: Is Abby and Libby’s killer one of Delphi’s own? ISP says, yes

So someone local is worried what others think of him.

RA has a reputation to protect!

And he thinks a pat down is molestation demonstrating he is capable of coming up with unlikely grievances and accusations to contribute to his defense.

And doesn’t say I’m innocent.

I don’t see anywhere anything like proclaiming innocence.

No: “I was there at the same time but I didn’t do this; you’ve got to believe me!”

Doesn’t say “I could never, I have my own precious girl.”



Page 2 {...]
Rick said the following: “It’s over. I was perfectly fine. I was cooperating.

I was going to give you my phone and then, you know, when you

started reading all these documents – that’s at the – here’s my thing

is. I feel like you guys think I done this. So, I’m done. You do what

you need to do. It’s your job. I understand that, but you better

leave my reputation out if it. So you do what you need to do, and then,

like I said, when you do find this guy, I’ll expect the apology.” Rick

then described how police were trying to ruin his reputation by

accusing him of the murders in public, even groping him as they

patted him down in the street. Rick was expressing that the mere act

of mentioning his name as a possible killer or patting him down on a

public street as if he were a criminal would ruin his reputation and

was greatly upsetting.

2024 4/15 suppress 2nd statement .pdf


Here’s the RA from the videos and pictures we’ve seen.

No stunted, feeble CVS employee too weak willed to even cross a stream this is RA showing his grumpy self-centered nature.

I hope he insists on taking the stand.

all imo

 

[girlhasnoname]

I don't think we can know what he was aware of or what he knew or what he wanted.

Also, are you saying that his Mirandization from the 13th would have "held over" to the 26th? So he was still Mirandized? I think I'm not following what you're saying.

I'm not saying the 13th would have held over to the 26th, what I am saying is that RA knew he could stop talking and ask for attorney at any time because anything he said can/will be used against in a Court of Law. He had just signed a copy that explained exactly how that worked.

MOO

 

[TTF14]

I'm not conflating the two. He was given and signed a Miranda Rights document in the first interview on Oct 13th. He had full knowledge of what, when and how that worked.

Two weeks later he returned and agreed to answer a 'few more questions' in the second interview. Totally within LE rights to do that probably based upon facts uncovered from his first interview. When things went from friendly to adversarial at times, RA said he was 'done' not that he wanted or required an attorney.

Thank goodness we'll have the video of the interview and not just the words of the D on this for context.

MOO

As August West has pointed out, this is about the law, though. Not what RA remembered from before and knowing "how things worked." There's no way to read his mind.

 

[girlhasnoname]

"We also believe this person is from Delphi — currently or has previously lived here, visits Delphi on a regular basis or works here," Carter said.
[…]
Carter kept speaking directly to the killer, whether he was there in a standing-room-only crowd that lined up to get in to witness the announcement or not: "We likely have interviewed you or someone close to you. We know that this is about power to you, and you want to know what we know. And one day you will. A question to you: What will those closest to you think of when they find out that you brutally murdered two little girls?"

Delphi murders: Is Abby and Libby’s killer one of Delphi’s own? ISP says, yes

So someone local is worried what others think of him.

RA has a reputation to protect!

And he thinks a pat down is molestation demonstrating he is capable of coming up with unlikely grievances and accusations to contribute to his defense.

And doesn’t say I’m innocent.

I don’t see anywhere anything like proclaiming innocence.

No: “I was there at the same time but I didn’t do this; you’ve got to believe me!”

Doesn’t say “I could never, I have my own precious girl.”



Page 2 {...]
Rick said the following: “It’s over. I was perfectly fine. I was cooperating.

I was going to give you my phone and then, you know, when you

started reading all these documents – that’s at the – here’s my thing

is. I feel like you guys think I done this. So, I’m done. You do what

you need to do. It’s your job. I understand that, but you better

leave my reputation out if it. So you do what you need to do, and then,

like I said, when you do find this guy, I’ll expect the apology.” Rick

then described how police were trying to ruin his reputation by

accusing him of the murders in public, even groping him as they

patted him down in the street. Rick was expressing that the mere act

of mentioning his name as a possible killer or patting him down on a

public street as if he were a criminal would ruin his reputation and

was greatly upsetting.

2024 4/15 suppress 2nd statement .pdf


Here’s the RA from the videos and pictures we’ve seen.

No stunted, feeble CVS employee too weak willed to even cross a stream this is RA showing his grumpy self-centered nature.

I hope he insists on taking the stand.

all imo

You and me too.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Because the trial isn't being livestreamed. I meant a literal "we"....us here....me.

Who's the closest to Delphi on here? I'll chip in to cover the cost of attending the trial.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Why wouldn't we see it. I think his interviews with LE will be played for the jury.

MOO

Because part of it is missing?
(snip from the link)
19.However, for unknown reasons the video provided to the defense is
missing the beginning portion of the interview when procedural
matters are typically handled by law enforcement, such as the
reading of Miranda, advisement of rights and confirming with the
suspect that he is free to leave, if in fact the suspect is free to leave.
20. In this case, either (a) the camera was only turned on after they
(Holeman and Rick) were already minutes into the interview because
the video provided to the defense does not show Holeman and Rick
entering the room, sitting down and beginning the interrogation or
(b) the camera was recording the entire time, but the beginning of
the interview was later edited out before being turned over to the
defense in February 2024.
21.Either way, the beginning of the interaction between Holeman and
Rick in the interrogation room when introductions are typically made
and Miranda rights are always reviewed is missing. In the 70+ years
of experience between co-counsels, this is highly unusual, especially
on a high-profile case of this nature.

2024 4/15 suppress 2nd statement .pdf

drive.google.com

 

[vinayd]

"We also believe this person is from Delphi — currently or has previously lived here, visits Delphi on a regular basis or works here," Carter said.
[…]
Carter kept speaking directly to the killer, whether he was there in a standing-room-only crowd that lined up to get in to witness the announcement or not: "We likely have interviewed you or someone close to you. We know that this is about power to you, and you want to know what we know. And one day you will. A question to you: What will those closest to you think of when they find out that you brutally murdered two little girls?"

Delphi murders: Is Abby and Libby’s killer one of Delphi’s own? ISP says, yes

So someone local is worried what others think of him.

RA has a reputation to protect!

And he thinks a pat down is molestation demonstrating he is capable of coming up with unlikely grievances and accusations to contribute to his defense.

And doesn’t say I’m innocent.

I don’t see anywhere anything like proclaiming innocence.

No: “I was there at the same time but I didn’t do this; you’ve got to believe me!”

Doesn’t say “I could never, I have my own precious girl.”



Page 2 {...]
Rick said the following: “It’s over. I was perfectly fine. I was cooperating.

I was going to give you my phone and then, you know, when you

started reading all these documents – that’s at the – here’s my thing

is. I feel like you guys think I done this. So, I’m done. You do what

you need to do. It’s your job. I understand that, but you better

leave my reputation out if it. So you do what you need to do, and then,

like I said, when you do find this guy, I’ll expect the apology.” Rick

then described how police were trying to ruin his reputation by

accusing him of the murders in public, even groping him as they

patted him down in the street. Rick was expressing that the mere act

of mentioning his name as a possible killer or patting him down on a

public street as if he were a criminal would ruin his reputation and

was greatly upsetting.

2024 4/15 suppress 2nd statement .pdf


Here’s the RA from the videos and pictures we’ve seen.

No stunted, feeble CVS employee too weak willed to even cross a stream this is RA showing his grumpy self-centered nature.

I hope he insists on taking the stand.

all imo

That's what I'm screaming! It's very much a narcissistic rant. I know, I deal with one on the regular, clinically diagnosed. Anyway... you tell your man he's cheating then he breaks his phone because he is so mad you would accuse him? That's RA Never get to see that phone and how dare you? In fact you're the cheater! Gaslighting.