Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #182

[FrostedGlass]

I think the reference was to the video still from Hoosier Harvestore, to compare them. At least that's how I took it.

That will teach me to eat and read at the same time.

 

[steeltowngirl]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1783904623667122193

 

[layer]

They couldn’t arrest him for merely being on the bridge.

Let's say DD took the report on Feb 14, as has been suggested. Wouldn't you love to see the interrogation Holeman didn't give him at that time, say Feb 17th 2017, with the BG picture in hand, showing it to his face, pinning him down on times, locations, people he saw, phones he owned, predilections etc. All on video that's backed up and doesn't self-erase.
The proof is in the pudding, if what they have now is enough to charge RA, it was enough to charge him in 2017. Unless there was some huge conspiracy involving officials on all levels to protect RA, the only logical conclusion is that it took five years to start the followup to DD's report.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Let's say DD took the report on Feb 14, as has been suggested. Wouldn't you love to see the interrogation Holeman didn't give him at that time, say Feb 17th 2017, with the BG picture in hand, showing it to his face, pinning him down on times, locations, people he saw, phones he owned, predilections etc. All on video that's backed up and doesn't self-erase.
The proof is in the pudding, if what they have now is enough to charge RA, it was enough to charge him in 2017. Unless there was some huge conspiracy involving officials on all levels to protect RA, the only logical conclusion is that it took five years to start the followup to DD's report.

There was time lost when they thought they had their man with RL. Then there was the staggering number of tips that came in after the audio and video were released. Each one had to be reviewed, thousands of interviews were conducted.

I have never worked in law enforcement, so I don’t know all of what it takes to nab a suspect. Criminals cover up their crimes. Mistakes were made, but I believe the overall investigation was methodical. I can’t imagine it’s an easy task to arrest a murderer of two teenage girls when rivers have to be searched, physical and digital evidence analyzed, etc.

We know it’s a complex case. I believe it came down to digital evidence and someone finally rolling on RA. Just my personal opinion. I probably have it all wrong. Will have to see at trial.

jmo

 

[layer]

There was time lost when they thought they had their man with RL. Then there was the staggering number of tips that came in after the audio and video were released. Each one had to be reviewed, thousands of interviews were conducted.

It's probably a bad argument that they didn't try to investigate RA because they had tunnel vision on RL. Did the same tunnel vision just transfer to RA? I think we probably all have it all wrong. How can we possibly have it right with the limited amount of information we've been spoon fed?

 

[steeltowngirl]

It's probably a bad argument that they didn't try to investigate RA because they had tunnel vision on RL. Did the same tunnel vision just transfer to RA? I think we probably all have it all wrong. How can we possibly have it right with the limited amount of information we've been spoon fed?

Oh heck no, they didn’t have tunnel vision on RA. Look at all of the suspects they ran through over the years. I just think they had him in sight, and from 2019 on, the pieces had to come into place.

I was right here with you over the years wishing they would release more information. I’m just nebby that way. They said they had their reasons for the secrecy, and I really hope to understand why during the trial.

jmo

 

[Quim The Extraordinaire]

I think they are excellent attorneys, but I agree they may have bitten off more than they can chew. I don't think they had any idea how huge this case is until they really got into the Discovery and evidence. And the State counted on lackadaisical attorneys who would just get him to plea. Hence trying to get them kicked off the case.

While I think LE knows exactly what happened, who all is involved, and has this case completely solved (in private), I think this defense team may just "solve" it for the public because of their deep dives/digging/investigating. And I don't necessarily think that's a good thing, so I do really hope this goes to trial in 2 weeks as planned so they can move on to their next phase of arrests/prosecutions. But, I doubt it will.

IMO MOO

RBBM Above for focus.

MOO. I am not sure how the pieces fit together in this scenario.

May I respectfully ask who “the State” is in the scenario you describe above?

The B&R defense team was originally appointed by Judge Gull (who was appointed after Judge Diener self-recused). It would seem that State Actors allowing Judge Diener’s initial recusal would have derailed any original plan by the State Actors to get inferior and lackadaisical attorneys named to the defense to force a plea deal.

Or does this suggest that Judge Gull appointed B&R initially because her perception was that they were lackadaisical?

Were they lackadaisical, but became inspired by this case and are now committed? That course correction then dismayed Judge Gull, who tried to dismiss them?

Or are all Indiana public defense attorneys (other than the ones rallying to B&R’s own defense) considered to be lackadaisical under this scenario?

Was the Indiana Supreme Court part of the State’s plan in this scenario? Did they appoint Judge Gull with the intent that she would name lackadaisical defense attorneys, but after B&R demonstrated they are not lackadaisical, they were concerned the plan would become too obvious, so they renamed B&R as the defense but also maintained Judge Gull in place to carry out the original plan in a different manner? Are a subset of SCOIN justices involved with others oblivious to the plot, which explains the seemingly contradictory actions?

Or is the State Actor centered by Carroll County (CC) Prosecutor Nick McLeland? He was counting on them to be lackadaisical, so he … did what? I struggle with how McLeland’s perception that defense attorneys appointed by an appointed Special Judge were / would be lackadaisical would affect McLeland’s actions? Much of the lost (some subsequently recovered) records were lost or misfiled / mishandled prior to McLeland becoming prosecutor.

McLeland served briefly as a public defender for Carroll, Clinton and White counties, according to the Monticello Herald Journal:

He’s a public defender for Carroll, White and Clinton counties, and he spent about two years as a public defender in Tippecanoe County, he said.

If McLeland was banking on lackadaisical public defenders, do you think that perception was informed by his serving as a public defender?

If this is posited as a CC, IN, faction in LE and possibly beyond, they would seem inept in planning if they did not have Judge Diener, who would almost certainly handle any initial charges, on board. If he WAS in on the original plot, did he fear public scrutiny more than any reprisals that the CC faction would seek against him for recusing? Judge Diener did not fear the local faction who were willing to allow the brutal murderer(s) of A&L walk free while (possibly) setting up RA for a capital case in order to cover up for 1) their own crimes and/or 2) their own ineptness?

How does RA’s initial assertion that he would hire private counsel align with this scenario? Is it simply an unrelated coincidence? Or was RA subsequently coerced by State Actors in the White County jail into requesting appointed attorneys so that the Judge (not sure where this fell in the Diener -> Gull transition) could appoint lackadaisical defenders, only to have that backfire with B&R being put on the case?

Were B&R aware at any time that they were supposed to be lackadaisical? It would seem to be a huge risk on The State’s part not to have some sort of assurance that the defense attorneys would in fact be lackadaisical, if that were key to the entire setup. But if B&R were ever overtly approached, it seems that they would have evidence of the plot and unveil it. Maybe that’s yet to come?

Maybe the leak of crime scene photos was orchestrated by State Actors to get Attorney Baldwin (at least) removed from the case? Maybe Attorney Baldwin was subjected to as yet unknown coercion by State Actors and was willing to withdraw, but Attorney Rozzi, who was not aware of any of this, persevered and subsequently both were reappointed by SCOIN?

If RA does plea at any point, would that be evidence of ineffective or highly effective counsel? Perhaps like so many things in this case, that, too, will be subject to interpretation.

Perhaps it’s a very poorly planned scheme involving many State Actors. That wouldn’t be unheard of, and there are some who would say that’s “Standard Operating Procedure.”

It’s simply difficult for me to understand how this works with what we know so far.

MOO.

 

[Boxer]

Let's say DD took the report on Feb 14, as has been suggested. Wouldn't you love to see the interrogation Holeman didn't give him at that time, say Feb 17th 2017, with the BG picture in hand, showing it to his face, pinning him down on times, locations, people he saw, phones he owned, predilections etc. All on video that's backed up and doesn't self-erase.
The proof is in the pudding, if what they have now is enough to charge RA, it was enough to charge him in 2017. Unless there was some huge conspiracy involving officials on all levels to protect RA, the only logical conclusion is that it took five years to start the followup to DD's report.

It did. People of Indiana deserve better for their taxes.

 

[TTF14]

I haven’t seen the evidence either, only the PCA. I look forward to learning at trial when they officially linked RA to evidence.

But, I also feel like LE hasn’t told the whole story, and I don’t believe the account that RA only came back on the radar after a misfiled tip was suddenly found.

There were plenty of missteps along the way. LE has been open about that. But when it comes to RA, I believe they had him in their sights for quite some time, but had to wait for enough evidence to nail him.

jmo

I respectfully disagree. I don't think they have been open about their missteps at all. I'm open to having my mind changed, though.

 

[TTF14]

RBBM Above for focus.

MOO. I am not sure how the pieces fit together in this scenario.

May I respectfully ask who “the State” is in the scenario you describe above?

The B&R defense team was originally appointed by Judge Gull (who was appointed after Judge Diener self-recused). It would seem that State Actors allowing Judge Diener’s initial recusal would have derailed any original plan by the State Actors to get inferior and lackadaisical attorneys named to the defense to force a plea deal.

Or does this suggest that Judge Gull appointed B&R initially because her perception was that they were lackadaisical?

Were they lackadaisical, but became inspired by this case and are now committed? That course correction then dismayed Judge Gull, who tried to dismiss them?

Or are all Indiana public defense attorneys (other than the ones rallying to B&R’s own defense) considered to be lackadaisical under this scenario?

Was the Indiana Supreme Court part of the State’s plan in this scenario? Did they appoint Judge Gull with the intent that she would name lackadaisical defense attorneys, but after B&R demonstrated they are not lackadaisical, they were concerned the plan would become too obvious, so they renamed B&R as the defense but also maintained Judge Gull in place to carry out the original plan in a different manner? Are a subset of SCOIN justices involved with others oblivious to the plot, which explains the seemingly contradictory actions?

Or is the State Actor centered by Carroll County (CC) Prosecutor Nick McLeland? He was counting on them to be lackadaisical, so he … did what? I struggle with how McLeland’s perception that defense attorneys appointed by an appointed Special Judge were / would be lackadaisical would affect McLeland’s actions? Much of the lost (some subsequently recovered) records were lost or misfiled / mishandled prior to McLeland becoming prosecutor.

McLeland served briefly as a public defender for Carroll, Clinton and White counties, according to the Monticello Herald Journal:



If McLeland was banking on lackadaisical public defenders, do you think that perception was informed by his serving as a public defender?

If this is posited as a CC, IN, faction in LE and possibly beyond, they would seem inept in planning if they did not have Judge Diener, who would almost certainly handle any initial charges, on board. If he WAS in on the original plot, did he fear public scrutiny more than any reprisals that the CC faction would seek against him for recusing? Judge Diener did not fear the local faction who were willing to allow the brutal murderer(s) of A&L walk free while (possibly) setting up RA for a capital case in order to cover up for 1) their own crimes and/or 2) their own ineptness?

How does RA’s initial assertion that he would hire private counsel align with this scenario? Is it simply an unrelated coincidence? Or was RA subsequently coerced by State Actors in the White County jail into requesting appointed attorneys so that the Judge (not sure where this fell in the Diener -> Gull transition) could appoint lackadaisical defenders, only to have that backfire with B&R being put on the case?

Were B&R aware at any time that they were supposed to be lackadaisical? It would seem to be a huge risk on The State’s part not to have some sort of assurance that the defense attorneys would in fact be lackadaisical, if that were key to the entire setup. But if B&R were ever overtly approached, it seems that they would have evidence of the plot and unveil it. Maybe that’s yet to come?

Maybe the leak of crime scene photos was orchestrated by State Actors to get Attorney Baldwin (at least) removed from the case? Maybe Attorney Baldwin was subjected to as yet unknown coercion by State Actors and was willing to withdraw, but Attorney Rozzi, who was not aware of any of this, persevered and subsequently both were reappointed by SCOIN?

If RA does plea at any point, would that be evidence of ineffective or highly effective counsel? Perhaps like so many things in this case, that, too, will be subject to interpretation.

Perhaps it’s a very poorly planned scheme involving many State Actors. That wouldn’t be unheard of, and there are some who would say that’s “Standard Operating Procedure.”

It’s simply difficult for me to understand how this works with what we know so far.

MOO.

I currently don't have the brainpower to delve into all of these great questions. That is not a criticism of you, your post, and your thoughts.

But, I think my use of the word lackadaisical was improper, upon reading your post and thinking about it some more. Because that seems to imply that I think plea bargains are lackadaisical, and I don't. Most cases never make it to court, though, and that is what I think they (the Prosecutor, etc.) were banking on. They were taken by surprise by B & R. And yes, I personally think (my opinion only) that State Actors were behind Westerman's actions, and the intent was to get B & R off the case because they were digging too deep. Just my opinion.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I respectfully disagree. I don't think they have been open about their missteps at all. I'm open to having my mind changed, though.

A couple of examples.

“Mistakes may have been made early on in the rush to get a resolution to this,” Leazenby said. “It could be that just the right question was not asked or a nerve was not touched by a question to help us figure out who did this.”

Lots of tips, no arrest in 2017 double homicide - Carroll County Comet

Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby told the Comet Monday roughly 40,000 tips have been received in the investigation into the homicides of Abigail Williams and Liberty German on Feb. 13, 2017. Leazenby reported that roughly 9,000 tips were received in 2019 and approxim ately 3 , 0 0 0 have...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

“So, there are a lot of lessons. Because as all of us in our lifetime, we look back and think dang it, I missed it there. But one thing I'm sure we didn't do anything we knew is wrong. But we all wish we had some do-overs for sure.”

'I feel a sense of peace': ISP Superintendent Doug Carter speaks three days after Delphi arrest announcement

Just over 72 hours after the Indiana State Police held a press conference announcing the arrest of Richard Allen, Doug Carter sat down with WRTV’s Marc Mullins to discuss the developments in the case.

www.wrtv.com

 

[TTF14]

A couple of examples.

“Mistakes may have been made early on in the rush to get a resolution to this,” Leazenby said. “It could be that just the right question was not asked or a nerve was not touched by a question to help us figure out who did this.”

Lots of tips, no arrest in 2017 double homicide - Carroll County Comet

Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby told the Comet Monday roughly 40,000 tips have been received in the investigation into the homicides of Abigail Williams and Liberty German on Feb. 13, 2017. Leazenby reported that roughly 9,000 tips were received in 2019 and approxim ately 3 , 0 0 0 have...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

“So, there are a lot of lessons. Because as all of us in our lifetime, we look back and think dang it, I missed it there. But one thing I'm sure we didn't do anything we knew is wrong. But we all wish we had some do-overs for sure.”

'I feel a sense of peace': ISP Superintendent Doug Carter speaks three days after Delphi arrest announcement

Just over 72 hours after the Indiana State Police held a press conference announcing the arrest of Richard Allen, Doug Carter sat down with WRTV’s Marc Mullins to discuss the developments in the case.

www.wrtv.com

Considering the size/severity of the blunders they did make, these are very, very weak "admissions." IMO MOO

 

[Quim The Extraordinaire]

I currently don't have the brainpower to delve into all of these great questions. That is not a criticism of you, your post, and your thoughts.

But, I think my use of the word lackadaisical was improper, upon reading your post and thinking about it some more. Because that seems to imply that I think plea bargains are lackadaisical, and I don't. Most cases never make it to court, though, and that is what I think they (the Prosecutor, etc.) were banking on. They were taken by surprise by B & R. And yes, I personally think (my opinion only) that State Actors were behind Westerman's actions, and the intent was to get B & R off the case because they were digging too deep. Just my opinion.

Thank you — I kept with your term so I wouldn’t misrepresent, but I thought you probably meant something more nuanced.

I think there’s more to the Westerman backstory as well. Maybe I’ll overthink some scenarios there. I’m not leaning toward state-directed actions without more evidence. I lean more toward an anti-State coordinated effort, but I don’t think there’s enough publicly available evidence to support that, either. MOO.

 

[Melted]

OR, how about a sentence modification in return for snitching? I can see him being in a tough place for testifying. On one hand, he's probably really irritated that he's back in jail after he thought he was released; on the other hand, he's now back where he started and may not want to be blabbing certain things.

While combing through his case, did you notice that something happened where a special judge was appointed? And did you see that judge then recused himself due to conflict of interest? What do you make of that?

Did you notice that Jesse James is also out of Elkhart Co? I wonder what the odds are that 2 of the people who were assigned to watch him were both from there?

This has always frustrated me, the judge recused themselves from the case claiming people were threatening them and their families lives.

Ok, who?!

People are threatening a judges life and instead of an investigation being launched and those people being charged they allow said threats to chase a judge off a case? This isn’t Mexico.

As for the guy that’s testifying against Richard Allen, I don’t think he has too much to worry about with being labeled a snitch for cooperating in the murder of two little girls. Convicts usually get a pass when it’s crimes against children.

 

[steeltowngirl]

This has always frustrated me, the judge recused themselves from the case claiming people were threatening them and their families lives.

Ok, who?!

People are threatening a judges life and instead of an investigation being launched and those people being charged they allow said threats to chase a judge off a case? This isn’t Mexico.

As for the guy that’s testifying against Richard Allen, I don’t think he has too much to worry about with being labeled a snitch for cooperating in the murder of two little girls. Convicts usually get a pass when it’s crimes against children.

Is there a known prisoner testifying against RA? I believe Lacy Patton is being called to testify as a defense witness.

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

 

[layer]

I believe Lacy Patton is being called to testify as a defense witness.

Is the defense scheduling witnesseses already? I guess I just assumed that any scheduled witnesses have to be prosecution at this stage.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Is the defense scheduling witnesseses already? I guess I just assumed that any scheduled witnesses have to be prosecution at this stage.

I don’t know. The subpoena is from the defense.

Mr. Patton,
Please accept this letter as confirmation that you have received a subpoena from Richard Allen's defense team to appear in Carroll County Circuit Court to provide testimony In Re State of Indiana v. Richard Allen: Cause No. 08C01-2210-MR-000001.

 

[layer]

I don’t know. The subpoena is from the defense.

I guess my assumption is that he was on the P witness list so the D deposed him? I mean the defense could theoretically not call any witnesses.

 

[Melted]

I guess my assumption is that he was on the P witness list so the D deposed him? I mean the defense could theoretically not call any witnesses.

Correct the subpoena was for the deposition of a witness by the defense that the state plans to call, RA’s lawyers deposed him at the county jail he’s housed at on Friday

 

[layer]

This has always frustrated me, the judge recused themselves from the case claiming people were threatening them and their families lives.

This is a great, and disturbing point.