Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #37

[Mani]

No, not a stretcher, a body..but Makara asks a very good question, because if a body will make and imprint, then the stretcher would also have made one, especially if she was sat there for some time in it. It s a great question...and there should be some sort of image in the mud from the later photos taken, if the mud holds images that well

Yes Makara made a good point - I would like to know if the stretcher has skid mountings underneath that would leave those two long marks? I don't know if it would but in my opinion, if the marks are made by the stretcher, it would have to have some sort of skid mounting as the marks are too close together to have been made by the frame of the stretcher. I hope that makes sense. MOO

 

[Rational]

Yes Makara made a good point - I would like to know if the stretcher has skid mountings underneath that would leave those two long marks? I don't know if it would but in my opinion, if the marks are made by the stretcher, it would have to have some sort of skid mounting as the marks are too close together to have been made by the frame of the stretcher. I hope that makes sense. MOO

I looked at the photos and cannot see any skid marks !!

 

[CJ60]

I looked at the photos and cannot see any skid marks !!

Could you describe what a skid mark would look like please.

 

[Mani]

Could you describe what a skid mark would look like please.

CJ - I am referring to skids. Have you seen a skidoo? It sits on two skids and motors across snow! I am wondering if the stretcher had small skids underneath it' protrusions running along the length of the stretcher; one on each side. These could have produced the long parallel marks in the mud.
Field manifolds, compressors and vessels sit on metal skids. The stretcher that was on the bridge looks to me like it is made of plastic. IMO
I am just looking for an explanation as to what could have caused the long marks, as they are too close together to be the outline of the frame IMO.

 

[Onlyone]

Focus stays on clues in search for killer of Allison Baden-Clay | The ...
www.couriermail.com.au/news/.../story-e6freon6-12263810072252 Jun 2012 – Gerard Baden-Clay, and wife Allison (inset) Source: The Courier-Mail ... his five-year-old german shepherd Sasha started howling and wouldn't ...
You've visited this page 2 times. Last visit: 17/08/12

THIRD ATTEMPT at the google search... still can't see the mention of the road though... but I know it came up the first time... just no info in the article it took me to.

So clearly, I'm no help at all. haha

I agree Wakeskate that is what I feel may be the case. Allison's body was dislodged after awhile when all the gasses etc started to built up, coinciding around the time of the rain and surge. Her body ended up being deposited there and no tide was high enough to dislodge.

Also unless we know what the white boots look like and what imprints they leave, cannot comment. May need to do some more sleuthing!!

I would imagine they are the same boots used by surgeons rather than regular gum boots. Surgical gum boots have defined heel & no tread....

 

[Onlyone]

Thanks Poss, if they were folded, her head could easily have rested near the door handle, but at the end of the day, the blood found in the car that belonged to Allison could easily be in either location, door handle or wheel hub.


Why fold the seats down and put her in the boot? why not in the back seats? Unless there was a lot of blood, and she was wrapped up in a tarp or something and he didnt want to transfer evidence? Thinking from my own point of view, I would have put her in the back, but now, trying to think from his, I see it differently, and I sound uncaring talking like this, sorry if I offend, I am trying to understand where and why he moved her body in a particular spot, as opposed to another spo

maybe he might have thought the carpeted boot is easier to clean than seats that fluid could sink right into. He might have filled the boot FULL of things, toys etc, to look like there was a heap of stuff in there and put her at the bottom.

Not a nice thought, but if he did wrap her in a tarp, then I can see the boot being within his train of thought, not sure why, but it feels morbid to think about it, like a tarp wrapped 'item' should go in a boot for storage...yet a person goes into a seat, and he may not have been thinking about her as a person at this point, just as something that needed to be got rid of.

I know this sounds callous and awful, but his frame of mind at that point must have been, 'I have to get rid of this without making a mess'. I think with those thoughts in mind, he would use the boot.

Might be easier to place someone in a boot rather than the back seat. Wider door & easier plane for placement. Would be very hard (I imagine) to place a body into a backseat.

 

[Rational]

Rational - please give me a word that you would use for the long marks in the mud? LOL

Elongated drag marks??

 

[summer_breeze]

Might be easier to place someone in a boot rather than the back seat. Wider door & easier plane for placement. Would be very hard (I imagine) to place a body into a backseat.

Good points!

Doc, when does rigor mortis begin to set in? (hours?) This would make a body much less pliable, at least for a period of time.

 

[Onlyone]

help me out here....is this before Allison was winched up on the stretcher......have I been right all along? I dont see how her body is in the mud here?
could it be late in the afternoon, after she has been removed? the shadows look long
if so, then disregard what I asked
http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2012/04/30/1226342/954549-body-recovered.jpg

Minni, I think once they got her on the back slab they would have transported her on it rather than risk any further disturbance.. I think these slabs also don't have runners but are flat.

 

[CJ60]

Elongated drag marks??

Do you think that is the best description?

 

[regret]

He couldn't go out and look for her with searchers because he had scratches on his face. Simple. Whether he wanted to or not, he could nt be seen. It takes a few days to grow facial hair to cover. IMO

 

[Mani]

Minnie, I think once they got her on the back slab they would have transported her on it rather than risk any further disturbance.. I think these slabs also don't have runners but are flat.

That stretcher looks to me to be quite flat IMO

 

[Mani]

I looked at the photos and cannot see any skid marks !!

What I mean is - the marks in the photo; there are two of them and they are parallel and it looks like legs could have made them i.e. the body
or
the stretcher could have made them - and if that is the case, what at the bottom of the stretcher might make those two depressions/marks? MOO

 

[regret]

I have another question regarding the boot of the car, that Mani brought up and made me think about. I think if I was going to take a dead body in my car through built up areas with lights etc, I would NOT put her in the boot of my car. I would put her in the back seat, lying down head up one end, feet up the other. and covered. Just in case, someone saw something, it might look like she was sleeping, or sick. And there was blood found near the door handle, I think, so this could be a possibility. It might be blood, or milk from a bottle, or another form of protein, or bleach even. They only had the car for 6 weeks, so it could be anything.

But in the boot, blood (or another form of protein) was found on the wheel hubs. I can imagine many things being spilt on the door handle, I mean, people spilt stuff all the time in the back of cars, but not so much in the boot on the wheel area. If the stains on the wheel area ARE blood, then he put her in the boot, not in the back seat, and he must have pushed her all the way in, near those wheel hubs, for blood to have leaked onto them. He would have (I believe) had to cover her up quite well if he chose to do this, so the boot would have been packed with stuff, like the toys?? and he would ahve had to cover her well.

Basically, what I mean is luminol shows something on the door handle in the back seat, and something in the boot. Allison's blood has been found in the car, so its one of these sites. Where did he put her to transport her? IN the boot? or in the back seat?

there are many reasons why protein will show up on the door handle, less reasons why it will in the boot. SO where do you all think he put her to move her? Or could it be both? in the boot to Kenmore, where his father says, ' you are an idiot' put her in the back seat?

Also, I still wonder whether he put her seat back into the correct position and her rearview mirror back into the correct position if he tried to claim she was the last to drive that car. Someone else drove her car that night

MOO MOO

Going back to my days of putting kids into the back seat of a car, I recall that it is a bit of a struggle - leaning over and in....and also you get very physically close to whatever you are putting in there (who or what,,that is). I wouldn't even try to put a dead weight (sorry) into a back seat....it would be very hard to manoeuvre and way too physically intimate for comfort (pulling and tugging and pushing)....terrible to even think of. Good to see thinking caps on again on this board. There are two purposes to having every detail of this entire business on the table. 1. For the courts & 2. For Allison's family - as hard as the truth may be, they must know it. This is a normal human need.

 

[Bayside]

Good points!

Doc, when does rigor mortis begin to set in? (hours?) This would make a body much less pliable, at least for a period of time.

I am no Doc or doctors wife but I can say that when my brother killed himself around 1pm rigor had already began within 2.5 hours.

 

[summer_breeze]

I am no Doc or doctors wife but I can say that when my brother killed himself around 1pm rigor had already began within 2.5 hours.

Thank you Bayside!

 

[DrWatson]

Good points!

Doc, when does rigor mortis begin to set in? (hours?) This would make a body much less pliable, at least for a period of time.

Hi Summer

Rigor mortis isn't the exact science that many books and TV shows would have you believe. It usually starts in a couple of hours, but may be up to 6 hours, depending on things like the temperature (eg in cool water vs out in the sun). It usually spreads from the top down - so the muscles of the head and neck are usually the first to stiffen (eg jaw), and eventually the whole body - but that usually takes several hours. It then fades away in the same sequence as it set in - i.e. from the head down. The whole process can last 2-3 days, or longer if the body is kept very cold (eg in the snow).

Obviously, there are many factors involved, including age, sex, temperature as mentioned, body size, how muscular the body is, etc etc. All of these would need to be taken into account when trying to assess an approximate time of death, for example. And it would only be approximate. Core temperature (eg liver probes) would be more accurate, but still has a lot of variables, not least being ambient temperature.

In terms of "flopping" a body into the back seat of a vehicle, it would be perfectly possible for a big strong male to flip a small-medium frame woman's body (eg Allison's) into the back seat in the time scale that we all assume to be the case here. He wouldn't have kept the body around for several hours before disposing of it, I would have thought. It would have been within an hour or so - but that's pure guesswork again.

However, the rear compartment of a 4WD would be even easier.

In terms of covering or hiding the body, I'm not sure about that model of Captiva, but many of the 4WD's of that "soft-roader" category have pull-screens that slide back over the rear compartment and clip into little latches just inside the tailgate, the idea being that nobody can see if you have valuables in the back, eg bags, shopping, etc.

 

[summer_breeze]

Hi Summer

Rigor mortis isn't the exact science that many books and TV shows would have you believe. It usually starts in a couple of hours, but may be up to 6 hours, depending on things like the temperature (eg in cool water vs out in the sun). It usually spreads from the top down - so the muscles of the head and neck are usually the first to stiffen (eg jaw), and eventually the whole body - but that usually takes several hours. It then fades away in the same sequence as it set in - i.e. from the head down. The whole process can last 2-3 days, or longer if the body is kept very cold (eg in the snow).

Obviously, there are many factors involved, including age, sex, temperature as mentioned, body size, how muscular the body is, etc etc. All of these would need to be taken into account when trying to assess an approximate time of death, for example. And it would only be approximate. Core temperature (eg liver probes) would be more accurate, but still has a lot of variables, not least being ambient temperature.

In terms of "flopping" a body into the back seat of a vehicle, it would be perfectly possible for a big strong male to flip a small-medium frame woman's body (eg Allison's) into the back seat in the time scale that we all assume to be the case here. He wouldn't have kept the body around for several hours before disposing of it, I would have thought. It would have been within an hour or so - but that's pure guesswork again.

However, the rear compartment of a 4WD would be even easier.

In terms of covering or hiding the body, I'm not sure about that model of Captiva, but many of the 4WD's of that "soft-roader" category have pull-screens that slide back over the rear compartment and clip into little latches just inside the tailgate, the idea being that nobody can see if you have valuables in the back, eg bags, shopping, etc.

Thank you Doc.

 

[Makara]

No, not a stretcher, a body..but Makara asks a very good question, because if a body will make an imprint, then the stretcher would also have made one, especially if she was sat there for some time in it. It s a great question...and there should be some sort of image in the mud from the later photos taken, if the mud holds images that well

My point exactly. If the impression of Allison's body is supposedly still visible in the mud and the footprints of QPS are supposedly still visible in the mud then one would obviously conclude that the impressions of the stretcher that was placed in the mud to accommodate Allison's body would still be visible in the mud.

MOO.

 

[Curiousasacat]

I agree Possum, that would tie in with the statements made by QPS and if Allison's body (still pains me to write that) was interfered with by lime and if she had a cover (plastic bag or something) over her head, that could mean that it would make sense that the only visible injury was a chipped tooth as anything else was affected by the lime.


Also thinking that, maybe, if the lime was the case, that a reaon for the plastic bag, if there was one, was to preserve Allison's face from being affected by the lime, not necessarily to depersonalise her. Sorry just thinking aloud here.

Along this line of thinking,when they found Allison's body,the report was that they found a body with similar clothing. They did not say it looked like Allison,so my guess is that her face was not easily identifiable? Wasn't she ID'd via dental records? Just a thought.