ARDI -- new hope The return of the IDI

[Becky319]

In reading the "She flirts" comment from PR I was immediately struck by the thought that that sounds like a jealous remark. Is anyone else thinking it's possible that PR was jealous of JB? I thought I'd read something about PR not being either willing or able (one or the other) to "be with" JR because of her previous bout of cancer. If so, and he turned to JB for that purpose, perhaps PR was aware and jealous?

I don't see someone that has never had an interest in sex with a child just all the sudden think hey this is a good idea since my wife can't. Maybe I am another one who wears rose colored glasses?

 

[voynich]

Not directly, at least. We know that PR took JB to her pediatrician a fair number of times, several for vaginal irritation. Other than that, not a thing was done.



Well, the afore-mentioned pediatrician has said that he never suspected sexual abuse, but also admits that he never performed the necessary examinations to find out. His reasoning was that the Rs didn't seem like the type.



Yes, it is. More specifically, abuse like this is not often done in one shot. It's done over time to "prepare" the subject.

so you're suggesting when JB was 4 y/o, that JR could insert his adult size fingers into her little vagina without rupturing her hymen? What do the experts say?

 

[BBB167893]

I don't see someone that has never had an interest in sex with a child just all the sudden think hey this is a good idea since my wife can't. Maybe I am another one who wears rose colored glasses?

To be honest, Becky, I have some doubts as well. But let's spitball for a minute.

In some ways, Tboy4's idea recalls the story of "Snow White." We all know what the Queen did when she found out she wasn't the fairest in the land anymore.

But from a more clinical standpoint, it helps to remember that children make good victims because they're so easy to manipulate. Especially someone like JB, who was not only beautiful, but trained to be obedient. PR and Nedra had little tolerance for disobedience. Whomever JB's molester was, they would have found her an ideal victim.

Now, it's easy enough to think that if PR was unable, JR would simply have taken a mistress. Well, that's what ended his first marriage. Not only that, but JR had lost his daughter Elizabeth (from his first marriage) in a car accident. She was only 22.

In other words, JB was "safe." She wasn't old enough to get life-destroying cancer, and she wasn't old enough to get herself killed driving a car. She was easy to manipulate and control. A perfect "playmate."

 

[BBB167893]

so you're suggesting when JB was 4 y/o, that JR could insert his adult size fingers into her little vagina without rupturing her hymen?

Don't put words in my mouth, voynich. That's all I ask. Right. Now, let's take these points:

so you're suggesting when JB was 4 y/o,

I don't remember saying how old she was specifically. It's possible it started like that, but at the same time it could have been just a few months or a few weeks.

that JR could insert his adult size fingers into her little vagina without rupturing her hymen?

Whomever it was (I say JR because of the way he acts when the subject is brought up, but not 100%) could very well have done that, yes, if it was done a little bit at a time. That's what I mean when I say "prepare." Typically, long-term molesters will gradually stretch the opening with repeated, "gentle" insertions.

What do the experts say?

Well, if you read the books and articles on this subject, you'll see that a lot of them agree with me.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't see someone that has never had an interest in sex with a child just all the sudden think hey this is a good idea since my wife can't. Maybe I am another one who wears rose colored glasses?

Remember JR wasn't the only male in the family who had repeated access to JB. She had a brother, though pre-pubescent, any mother of sons will say that sexual curiosity by age 9 is very common. She also had a college-age half-brother who attended the University right there in Boulder. While he lived with his mother (JR's first wife) in Georgia, he was at the R home most of the time during the school year. I don't know if he actually lived with JR and his family and attended school as a day student, or if he lived in the University dorms. Either way, he had plenty of access to JB. There was also Grandpa P, whose post-murder behavior was very strange to say the least, as was that of his wife Nedra, Patsy's mother. When speaking to police about the suspected sexual assault of her murdere granddaughter, she told police that JB was "only a little bit molested". As if that made it OK.

 

[voynich]

Remember JR wasn't the only male in the family who had repeated access to JB. She had a brother, though pre-pubescent, any mother of sons will say that sexual curiosity by age 9 is very common. She also had a college-age half-brother who attended the University right there in Boulder. While he lived with his mother (JR's first wife) in Georgia, he was at the R home most of the time during the school year. I don't know if he actually lived with JR and his family and attended school as a day student, or if he lived in the University dorms. Either way, he had plenty of access to JB. There was also Grandpa P, whose post-murder behavior was very strange to say the least, as was that of his wife Nedra, Patsy's mother. When speaking to police about the suspected sexual assault of her murdere granddaughter, she told police that JB was "only a little bit molested". As if that made it OK.

But the Dark Side is clear JB must have been murdered or covered up by JR.

 

[DeeDee249]

But the Dark Side is clear JB must have been murdered or covered up by JR.

Murdered and covered up, certainly possible. Covered up, very likely. RDI is not JDI. It is RDI for a reason. We can't pin it on just one. He didn't have to be the murderer to take part in the staging.

 

[voynich]

Murdered and covered up, certainly possible. Covered up, very likely. RDI is not JDI. It is RDI for a reason. We can't pin it on just one. He didn't have to be the murderer to take part in the staging.

true, but some RDI is that JR sexually abused JB and had to cover this
I am sceptical it is possible for an adult to insert his finger into a 5 y.o vagina w/o rupturing hymen

 

[BBB167893]

true, but some RDI is that JR sexually abused JB and had to cover this

Some.

I am sceptical it is possible for an adult to insert his finger into a 5 y.o vagina w/o rupturing hymen

Then I suggest that you ask LinasK about it. She could tell you.

 

[DeeDee249]

true, but some RDI is that JR sexually abused JB and had to cover this
I am sceptical it is possible for an adult to insert his finger into a 5 y.o vagina w/o rupturing hymen

Probably. It was the coroner himself who noted to Detective Arndt (who was present at the autopsy) that the vaginal trauma was consistent with digital penetration.
And the sexual abuse need not have had JR as the assaulter.

 

[voynich]

Probably. It was the coroner himself who noted to Detective Arndt (who was present at the autopsy) that the vaginal trauma was consistent with digital penetration.
And the sexual abuse need not have had JR as the assaulter.

yeah, ardi works

How would JR know how to insert his finger into 4 y/o JB vagina w/o rupturing her hymen totally?

maybe the worn hymen is completely unrelated to her death, a completely separate issue.

 

[voynich]

Let's say that JR nor PR did NOT sexually molest JB, and that possibly whatever anomy found in JB hymen could be attributed to some third party.

This would imply that RDI scenarios involving sex games highly unlikely.
If unlikely then we are left with head blow or strangulation which came first. If strangulation came first, then the murder was intentional, not accidental. And since it was not for sex games, then the most likely cause was an IDI, ARDI.

 

[BBB167893]

Let's say that JR nor PR did NOT sexually molest JB, and that possibly whatever anomy found in JB hymen could be attributed to some third party.

I could buy that, to a point, anyway.

This would imply that RDI scenarios involving sex games highly unlikely.

True.

If unlikely then we are left with head blow or strangulation which came first. If strangulation came first, then the murder was intentional, not accidental.

Right: IF.

How would JR know how to insert his finger into 4 y/o JB vagina w/o rupturing her hymen totally?

It's a fairly common phenomenon. Ask LinasK if you don't believe me.

maybe the worn hymen is completely unrelated to her death, a completely separate issue.

That would be one heck of a coincidence.

 

[Sophie]

Thanks for bringing this up SD.Was thinking if to post re this or not,feeling somehow uncomfortable.Was watching some JB videos lately...I almost never do that,watching her pageant videos,looking at her pictures and stuff.

Whenever I look at her I am enraged.I hope noone gets me wrong.But she just doesn't look like a KID! :furious: And yes,she does look flirty in some of the videos.And you can barely find photos were she doesn't wear tons of make-up and that damn lipstick!:furious:

I am a woman and it's hard for me to look at her because I find her sexy!That's not normal!She was 6 FGS,what's with all the flirty moves,the blonde hair and all?And it's not only the moves,but the way she looks at the camera sometimes,yep,like she's flirting.

And then there comes mommy saying she's concerned??

GMAFB!It was her transforming that poor child into.............can't find my words..................

Sorry for ranting,but this was on my chest for a long time now.


Now another thing re all this.............now if there was an intruder and he targeted JB because she was a beauty queen,wouldn't you as a parent feel a bit guilty about it?I would DIE knowing that it was ME who exposed her like that.No,what is mommy doing?She even buries her in that stupid silly outfit!:furious:

Ok I am done now.

Absolutely brilliant post, Madeleine. I try not to criticise the pageant element on the basis of 'to each their own' etc and I do think that generally Patsy and John seem to have worked hard to provide their kids with good opportunities but, love of God: little girls are beautiful in their unmade-up innocence. Putting lipstick on a tiny six year-old face is like building a factory on the Grand Canyon...

 

[Sophie]

true, but some RDI is that JR sexually abused JB and had to cover this
I am sceptical it is possible for an adult to insert his finger into a 5 y.o vagina w/o rupturing hymen

What about an adult inserting her finger?

 

[DeeDee249]

What about an adult inserting her finger?

Her small finger wouldn't reach her hymen. As for JR "knowing" how far to insert it- he wouldn't, of course. But I'd think any adult engaging in such an act would believe that digital penetration would not rupture the hymen where penile penetration would. In that sense, the digital assault would be considered "safe" from detection. And it WOULD have been- had she not been dissected at autopsy. The erosion of her hymen for all practical purposes had rubbed it away. Bleeding on first intercourse is not always an absolute occurrence. The erosion (and subsequent lack of a complete hymen) may not ever have been seen until she reached the age where a full pelvic exam with speculum was performed, years later. At that age, she may have been expected to have engaged in some type of consensual sexual activity, if not intercourse, and the state of her hymen of no particular concern to her doctor.

 

[voynich]

Based on Amy and her mother's testimony,

IF hypothetically speaking, AR slipped inside R's on Dec 25 several hours prior to R's arrival, and knew the house well and where JB slept (as he knew where Amy was and her mother) what sort of crime do you think he would commit against JB, (given no interruption and no detection by R's) and how would such a crime differ from what actually happened to JB?

Since Amy reports he wore a black shirt and assaulted her both digital and oral penetration, committed the crime at night, that forensic evidence would be left behind. Evidently he did not bring much with him nor take anything from the house.

What measures would AR take to ensure JB told no one, and not identify her attacker? IF Amy's mother did not interrupt the attack, what measures would AR take to ensure AMY told no one, and he could leave the premises w/o Amy dialing 911 or calling for her mother?
IF AR decided to kill Amy, how would he do so, and do you think Amy's mother would be a prime suspect? Would this draw suspicion away from R's?

 

[Sophie]

Her small finger wouldn't reach her hymen. As for JR "knowing" how far to insert it- he wouldn't, of course. But I'd think any adult engaging in such an act would believe that digital penetration would not rupture the hymen where penile penetration would. In that sense, the digital assault would be considered "safe" from detection. And it WOULD have been- had she not been dissected at autopsy. The erosion of her hymen for all practical purposes had rubbed it away. Bleeding on first intercourse is not always an absolute occurrence. The erosion (and subsequent lack of a complete hymen) may not ever have been seen until she reached the age where a full pelvic exam with speculum was performed, years later. At that age, she may have been expected to have engaged in some type of consensual sexual activity, if not intercourse, and the state of her hymen of no particular concern to her doctor.

Sorry, DeeDee. I didn't express myself very well. Someone doubted that an adult inserting his finger wouldn't have damaged the hymen and I was wondering what damage the smaller fingers of a woman could have done.

I really don't know much about anatomy but I have always doubted the view expressed on some sites that JBR had been self-manipulating and damaged herself in that manner purely because she would presumably only do things that felt pleasant. I really don't see any child doing something that would hurt.

 

[DeeDee249]

Sorry, DeeDee. I didn't express myself very well. Someone doubted that an adult inserting his finger wouldn't have damaged the hymen and I was wondering what damage the smaller fingers of a woman could have done.

I really don't know much about anatomy but I have always doubted the view expressed on some sites that JBR had been self-manipulating and damaged herself in that manner purely because she would presumably only do things that felt pleasant. I really don't see any child doing something that would hurt.

You are correct there. Masturbation in very young children is rare, though not unheard of, and even less so in girls. The hormones that add to pleasure in a female are simply not there till puberty. A very young child would not engage in a penetration like that. It would manifest itself most likely by rubbing the external vaginal area. Such behavior is almost certainly caused by sexual abuse.

 

[Ripley007]

You are correct there. Masturbation in very young children is rare, though not unheard of, and even less so in girls. The hormones that add to pleasure in a female are simply not there till puberty. A very young child would not engage in a penetration like that. It would manifest itself most likely by rubbing the external vaginal area. Such behavior is almost certainly caused by sexual abuse.

Call me weird, but, even after puberty, doesn't most female mastubation revolve around the clitoris, NOT vaginal penetration?:blushing:

So is Rumor or Fact that wooden splinters were found in JBR's vagina?