Those characters were German. At least the leaders were.
Movie terrorists, indeed. Considering movies were a likely inspiration for the note (regardless of which side you come down on), it's not necessarily a frivolous question.
Are the Ramseys involved or not?
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Those characters were German. At least the leaders were.
Movie terrorists, indeed. Considering movies were a likely inspiration for the note (regardless of which side you come down on), it's not necessarily a frivolous question.
No ... it's not, a frivalous question.
I was trying to remember out of all the action movies I've seen, were there not 'french' terrorists? .... from Alsace Lorraine?....
http://movies.tvguide.com/die-hard/127333
Die Hard = "international terrorists". (german accent/dialogue)
ah heck ... "international terrorists" ...... suits the purpose.
Holdontoyourhat
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Here's a picture of a 'fat cat' I found this while reading wiki on Air Force One (film with Harrison Ford), then National Bolshevism, then anti-capitalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-capitalism
anne11
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My neighbour is from Lorraine, her first language is german. She has difficulty being understood by the locals (as do I, my first language is English) as they have a strong 'occitan' accent nothing like the 'Parisian' accent we are taught in school.
With further thought on the word attaché, its current usage in france is; a representative of a consulate or sales department etc.
Secondly, to be tied up or bound (or even put on a leash)
With further thought on the word attaché, its current usage in france is; a representative of a consulate or sales department etc.
Secondly, to be tied up or bound (or even put on a leash)
TY. Good link, Hotyh. I appreciate your efforts.
Socialism 101, terminologies thru time. Thanks. More to read!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kapital.jpg
Yep he's a fatty, alright.
Not a cutie like other 'gros chats.'
Hi Anne, Thanks for the info re accent -
"as they have a strong 'occitan' accent nothing like the 'Parisian' accent we are taught in school."
Yes, I guess the Parisian accent would be the standard amongst most french speakers, most certainly those in NA.
As far as 'attache', following fr wiki, attache is an expression, part of the verbiage of bondage.
Sheesh, just reading at fr wiki ** about bondage.
For sure something of which the average person, like me, knows very little, just what I would have seen in a hollywood movie .....
fr: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-bondage
eng; http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Self-bondage&oldid=cur
about "self bondage", and terms used in BDSM
There's been so much speculation by posters about the 'garotte' and bondage that IMO have no experience or understanding of the types of BDSM or the mechanism, the rope and 'garotte' that were used on JBR.
** the links are from wiki, general info, but may offend some.
For sure something of which the average person, like me, knows very little, just what I would have seen in a hollywood movie .....
fr: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-bondage
eng; http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Self-bondage&oldid=cur
about "self bondage", and terms used in BDSM
There's been so much speculation by posters about the 'garotte' and bondage that IMO have no experience or understanding of the types of BDSM or the mechanism, the rope and 'garotte' that were used on JBR.
** the links are from wiki, general info, but may offend some.
Ransom note: http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/
IMO As the note progresses the 'french flavour' diminishes.
First Page:
1. "Mr.[Monsieur] http://www.wordreference.com/fren/monsieur Ramsey.
2. Listen [ Ecoutez] carefully!
ecoutez isn't usually said with a 'qualifier', no need, but it has compound forms, bien ecoutez ...
http://www.wordreference.com/fren/ecoutez & ecoutez
We are a group of individuals [un groupe d'individus],
source: headline http://www.casafree.com/modules/news...p?storyid=3511
3. a small [ petit ,~e ], little, small http://www.wordreference.com/fren/petite
foreign faction [faction , feminine noun] http://www.wordreference.com/fren/faction
We xx (xx = 'ne', see post 655)
respect [respecter, transitive verb] your bussiness
4. but not the country that it serves. At this time [Maintenant ,adverb = now= at this point in time] http://www.wordreference.com/fren/maintenant,
we have
5. your daughter in our posession [possession, feminine noun; compound form = en possession] http://www.wordreference.com/fren/possession ,.
She is safe and unharmed *, [safe :http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/safe
sauf: http://www.wordreference.com/fren/sauf
sain: http://www.wordreference.com/fren/sain
sound: http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/sound]
6. if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to
7. the letter.
8. You will withdraw $118,000.00 from your account. $100,000 will be
9. in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills. Make sure
10. that you bring an adequate size
attache [ attache, feminine noun; attache = anglification of porte-docements] http://www.wordreference.com/fren/attache
to the bank. When you get
11. home you will put the money in a brown paper bag. I will call you
12. between 8 and 10 am tomorrow to instruct you on delivery. The
13. delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested. If we
14. monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to
15. arrange [arranger, transitive verb ] http://www.wordreference.com/fren/arrange
an earlier delivery of the
Second Page:
money and hence a earlier
16. delivery pickup of your daughter.
17. Any deviation [deviation, feminine noun: English: diversion - perversion ] http://www.wordreference.com/fren/deviation
of my instructions will result in the immediate
18. execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains
19. for proper burial. The two gentlemen [Monsieur, English: gentleman ]
http://www.wordreference.com/fren/Monsieur%20
watching over [ garder, transitive verb, English:guard - watch ] http://www.wordreference.com/fren/garder
your daughter
20. do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them.
21. Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I.,
22. etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded. If we catch you
23. talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she
24. dies. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies.
25. You will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found, she
26. dies. You can try to deceive us but be warned that we are familiar
27. with Law enforcement countermeasures and tactics. You stand a 99%
28. chance of killing your daughter if you try to out smart us. Follow
29. our instructions
Third Page:
and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back.
30. You and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as the
31. authorities. Don't try to grow a brain John. You are not the only
32. fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult. Don't
33. underestimate us John. Use that good southern common sense of yours.
34. It is up to you now John!
35. Victory!
36. S.B.T.C."
Ransom Note, image: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ransom1.html
IMO As the note progresses the 'french flavour' diminishes.
First Page:
1. "Mr.[Monsieur] http://www.wordreference.com/fren/monsieur Ramsey.
2. Listen [ Ecoutez] carefully!
ecoutez isn't usually said with a 'qualifier', no need, but it has compound forms, bien ecoutez ...
http://www.wordreference.com/fren/ecoutez & ecoutez
We are a group of individuals [un groupe d'individus],
source: headline http://www.casafree.com/modules/news...p?storyid=3511
3. a small [ petit ,~e ], little, small http://www.wordreference.com/fren/petite
foreign faction [faction , feminine noun] http://www.wordreference.com/fren/faction
We xx (xx = 'ne', see post 655)
respect [respecter, transitive verb] your bussiness
4. but not the country that it serves. At this time [Maintenant ,adverb = now= at this point in time] http://www.wordreference.com/fren/maintenant,
we have
5. your daughter in our posession [possession, feminine noun; compound form = en possession] http://www.wordreference.com/fren/possession ,.
She is safe and unharmed *, [safe :http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/safe
sauf: http://www.wordreference.com/fren/sauf
sain: http://www.wordreference.com/fren/sain
sound: http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/sound]
6. if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to
7. the letter.
8. You will withdraw $118,000.00 from your account. $100,000 will be
9. in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills. Make sure
10. that you bring an adequate size
attache [ attache, feminine noun; attache = anglification of porte-docements] http://www.wordreference.com/fren/attache
to the bank. When you get
11. home you will put the money in a brown paper bag. I will call you
12. between 8 and 10 am tomorrow to instruct you on delivery. The
13. delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested. If we
14. monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to
15. arrange [arranger, transitive verb ] http://www.wordreference.com/fren/arrange
an earlier delivery of the
Second Page:
money and hence a earlier
16. delivery pickup of your daughter.
17. Any deviation [deviation, feminine noun: English: diversion - perversion ] http://www.wordreference.com/fren/deviation
of my instructions will result in the immediate
18. execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains
19. for proper burial. The two gentlemen [Monsieur, English: gentleman ]
http://www.wordreference.com/fren/Monsieur%20
watching over [ garder, transitive verb, English:guard - watch ] http://www.wordreference.com/fren/garder
your daughter
20. do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them.
21. Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I.,
22. etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded. If we catch you
23. talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she
24. dies. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies.
25. You will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found, she
26. dies. You can try to deceive us but be warned that we are familiar
27. with Law enforcement countermeasures and tactics. You stand a 99%
28. chance of killing your daughter if you try to out smart us. Follow
29. our instructions
Third Page:
and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back.
30. You and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as the
31. authorities. Don't try to grow a brain John. You are not the only
32. fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult. Don't
33. underestimate us John. Use that good southern common sense of yours.
34. It is up to you now John!
35. Victory!
36. S.B.T.C."
Ransom Note, image: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ransom1.html
okay, so back to the ransom note:
http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/
The 'original' phraseology from a 'template' written in English, would it have been, as follows ....
Pay careful attention, Follow the instructions to the letter.
??? are those the correct phrases, in English?
http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/
The 'original' phraseology from a 'template' written in English, would it have been, as follows ....
Pay careful attention, Follow the instructions to the letter.
??? are those the correct phrases, in English?
re: 'frenchifications' within the note: delivery & particularly
The
13. delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested. If we
14. monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to
15. arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a earlier
16. delivery pickup of your daughter.
16. the word 'delivery' is crossed out and pickup is used instead
delivery noun
De Livraison = take out and delivery of fast food, or from a Restaurant.
pick up and delivery ... or Take Out,
2) .19. for proper burial. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter
20. do not particularly like you so
particularly http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/%20particularly%20 :
particularly adverb
en particulier : http://www.wordreference.com/fren/en particulier
/in particular
The
13. delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested. If we
14. monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to
15. arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a earlier
16. delivery pickup of your daughter.
16. the word 'delivery' is crossed out and pickup is used instead
delivery noun
- (of goods, milk) livraison f;
(of mail) distribution f;
on ~ à la livraison;
- (of baby) accouchement m.
De Livraison = take out and delivery of fast food, or from a Restaurant.
pick up and delivery ... or Take Out,
2) .19. for proper burial. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter
20. do not particularly like you so
particularly http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/%20particularly%20 :
particularly adverb
- (in particular) en particulier;
- (especially) spécialement.
en particulier : http://www.wordreference.com/fren/en particulier
/in particular
caveat: http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/
"There are no synonyms in Statement Analysis. Every word or name means something different even if it is only slightly different in meaning. A truthful person will usually be consistent in their language and not change their language by using synonyms unless their is a justification for the change. Deceptive people will sometimes use synonyms because they are making up the story and are not speaking from the heart. If the writer saw John Ramsey as being "Mr. Ramsey", then he should always refer to him as "Mr. Ramsey." When the writer changed the language and called him "John" it is an indication the story is deceptive."
perhaps in an unilingual analysis?
but armed with a french-english Thesaurus or a hand held computer translator, an individual, an anglo, with base knowledge of the french language could easily 'frenchify' the ransom note.
Would a francophone writing in english make the same errors, would the note have that same sense, somewhat lost in translation? ...
I doubt that.
The 'imperatif'? sense of the note,
http://french.about.com/library/weekly/aa123099.htm
the absence of abbreviations? filled with "do not" s , with just one don't:
31. authorities. Don't try to grow a brain John.
http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/
abbreviation?: what's the term for that? do not abbreviated? to don't
can not to can't,
"There are no synonyms in Statement Analysis. Every word or name means something different even if it is only slightly different in meaning. A truthful person will usually be consistent in their language and not change their language by using synonyms unless their is a justification for the change. Deceptive people will sometimes use synonyms because they are making up the story and are not speaking from the heart. If the writer saw John Ramsey as being "Mr. Ramsey", then he should always refer to him as "Mr. Ramsey." When the writer changed the language and called him "John" it is an indication the story is deceptive."
perhaps in an unilingual analysis?
but armed with a french-english Thesaurus or a hand held computer translator, an individual, an anglo, with base knowledge of the french language could easily 'frenchify' the ransom note.
Would a francophone writing in english make the same errors, would the note have that same sense, somewhat lost in translation? ...
I doubt that.
The 'imperatif'? sense of the note,
http://french.about.com/library/weekly/aa123099.htm
the absence of abbreviations? filled with "do not" s , with just one don't:
31. authorities. Don't try to grow a brain John.
http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/
abbreviation?: what's the term for that? do not abbreviated? to don't
can not to can't,
Hi again, Anne.
Ty for the info re regions and accents: http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/bylanguage/occitan.html
Regional inflection within language, Provençal inflections
http://www.homelands.org/worlds/occitan.html
Even the Occitan accent is effectively banned from public life. If one wants to get ahead in the French civil service, one must drop one's Occitan or Provençal inflections. (Provençal is perhaps the most widely used variant of Occitan.) Today just a handful of private secondary schools offer classes in Occitan. A few cultural groups, inspired by the Nobel Prize-winning 19th century Provençal poet Frédéric Mistral, quietly promote the language and literature.
The most visibleand audibleproponents of Occitan today are not linguists or history buffs, but contemporary musicians. These are no purists: their music blends modern folk music, the music of the medieval troubadors, Brazilian rhythms and, most notably, Jamaican reggae. The two groups featured in this piecethe Fabulous Trobadors from Toulouse and Massilia Sound System from Marseilleplay highly danceable music whose often-humorous (and often-political) lyrics mix French with Occitan, so as not to alienate French-speaking audiences. Other groups add a dose of Beur, the popular Arabic spoken by North Africans all over France.
Ty for the info re regions and accents: http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/bylanguage/occitan.html
Regional inflection within language, Provençal inflections
http://www.homelands.org/worlds/occitan.html
Even the Occitan accent is effectively banned from public life. If one wants to get ahead in the French civil service, one must drop one's Occitan or Provençal inflections. (Provençal is perhaps the most widely used variant of Occitan.) Today just a handful of private secondary schools offer classes in Occitan. A few cultural groups, inspired by the Nobel Prize-winning 19th century Provençal poet Frédéric Mistral, quietly promote the language and literature.
The most visibleand audibleproponents of Occitan today are not linguists or history buffs, but contemporary musicians. These are no purists: their music blends modern folk music, the music of the medieval troubadors, Brazilian rhythms and, most notably, Jamaican reggae. The two groups featured in this piecethe Fabulous Trobadors from Toulouse and Massilia Sound System from Marseilleplay highly danceable music whose often-humorous (and often-political) lyrics mix French with Occitan, so as not to alienate French-speaking audiences. Other groups add a dose of Beur, the popular Arabic spoken by North Africans all over France.
I honestly don't mean to get on anyone's back, but I we were talking crime, not linguistics. Could we please get back on subject?
Also, Tadpole: there has already been a linguistic analysis of the ransom letter. And the result was not a foreigner. (The result was that Alex Hunter undercut one of his OWN WITNESSES because he didn't like the result!)
Also, Tadpole: there has already been a linguistic analysis of the ransom letter. And the result was not a foreigner. (The result was that Alex Hunter undercut one of his OWN WITNESSES because he didn't like the result!)
Mendara
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The one thing that continues to pull me away from Patsy as the perp and killing JBR in an angry rage, is I just don't think choking your child with a homemade garrot (sp?) is worth doing just for the "staging" aspect. I just think there are far less cruel ways to "make it look" like a murder that do not include doing that to your child. I don't think a parent would go that far.
I think the perp enjoyed tightening the garrot and I can't say it was Patsy.
I think the perp enjoyed tightening the garrot and I can't say it was Patsy.
Hi SD.
I dunno .... the article re infliction is of interest to me as the note has none (cept for attache), or no sense of the cultural variation that exists within the french language.
No, through my limited skills of analysis, the note is not written by a 'foreigner', but an anglo. English speaker.
I can't help myself, the note screams out to me:
Sacreblue! ..... this note was written in English and modified to have French overtones. Ah ..... the art of translation.
I can see it the through the disjunctions between phrases and the odd wording..... and I have made some observations of the process. Translation is a process .... and I can see it evidenced within the note.
Process: write the body of the note in English, and then using (incorrect) synonyms, modify the 'sense' of the note. As I've noted earlier, most of the 'frenchifications' are on the first page of the three page note, the introduction and character development, like a narrative within the first paragraph.
Maybe you have to be bilingual or a french person to see it,
but it's like A B C.
Maybe my input on linguistics has become tedious?
but I do believe it's valid.
and I have seen nothing similar while reading online.
I get you. But I think that was the whole point of staging it that way, if you understand me.
Well, that begs a few points:
1) Were any of those other methods available?
2) "Less cruel" wouldn't have worked as well.
3) Most importantly, strangling is a clean method. It doesn't make a bloody mess. (I'm going to hell for this; I just know it.)
Well, Mendara, I hate to seem like I'm jumping on you, but they asked FBI agent Ron Walker about a parent "going that far," as you put it. Here's what he had to say:
"Well, as much as it pains me to say it, yes, I've seen parents who have decapitated their children, I've seen cases where parents have drowned their children in bathtubs, I've seen cases where parents have strangled their children, have placed them in paper bags and smothered them, have strapped them in car seats and driven them into a body of water, any way that you can think of that a person can kill another person, almost all those ways are also ways that parents can kill their children."
If that's the only thing keeping you back, you got nothing to worry about.
Well, we're just talking here.
Sound like anybody we know? (Hint, hint)
Just like a college-educated person is taught to write a letter, isn't it? (And I speak from personal experience on that.)
I guess maybe you do at that.
I didn't say that.
I sympathize. I believe a lot of things are valid.
And never will, I imagine. There's only ONE like this. (Which was and is a big red flag, in and of itself.)
Hi SD.
Yes, it's a good conversation!
s'cool SD .... tedious? not tedious?
I kinda thought maybe it was, and that I am the only one who can understand this journey through synonyms, (I should have color coded the transitions?), and I'm boring the pants off everyone.
and that no one will ever appreciate my sacrebleu* joke ...... * Blacque Jacque Shellacque
unique in its singularity .... oh ya .....
very simple process to discect this piece, you don't have to have a 'higher' education......
a grade eight english-french student could do it .......
misconceptions about translations, or speaking in your second language
..... is that the translation, it's not word for word, but groups of words and thoughts ,..... and that each speaker would use the sayings/ expressions that they are familiar with, and that results in a fluidity.
Yes, it's a good conversation!
s'cool SD .... tedious? not tedious?
I kinda thought maybe it was, and that I am the only one who can understand this journey through synonyms, (I should have color coded the transitions?), and I'm boring the pants off everyone.
and that no one will ever appreciate my sacrebleu* joke ...... * Blacque Jacque Shellacque
unique in its singularity .... oh ya .....
very simple process to discect this piece, you don't have to have a 'higher' education......
a grade eight english-french student could do it .......
misconceptions about translations, or speaking in your second language
..... is that the translation, it's not word for word, but groups of words and thoughts ,..... and that each speaker would use the sayings/ expressions that they are familiar with, and that results in a fluidity.
Kind of one-sided, though! I'm just trying to keep the basics.
Like I said, I didn't say one way or the other.
Like I said, I didn't say that. I'm just having a hard time seeing how this relates to the case.
Wasn't he a Bugs Bunny enemy?
You got it.
Well, for me, there doesn't seem to be much fluidity at all.
Holdontoyourhat
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You're welcome.
This could be a tough crowd, though.
There is a picture of a fat cat type, not unlike the one the RN author was referring to, coincident with an article on socialism.
Besides 'fat cat', the RN had the expressions 'not the country that it serves' and "we are a group of individuals', and then 'Victory!' as its closing salutation.
We cant see the forest for the trees?
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