Are the Ramseys involved or not?

[DeeDee249]

Thanks for responding guys - I've been in a training session all week and too braindead to log in at night.

If it isn't a transcription error (would the RST have picked it up and requested it be fixed?), then I guess there are a few possibilities. The first that springs to mind is the Stines. If memory serves, they were the only ones not called over that morning, although they seemed to be very close to the Rs after the event. However, presumably the touch DNA has been compared with samples from them.

The other thought is something that someone mentioned on here ages ago (apologies - I can't recall who). JRs company was part of the Lockheed group. I would just about guarantee that they would have procedures in place for their executives who may be targeted for kidnapping, blackmail etc. JRs first call should have been to activate those procedures. What if he did? What if Lockheed sent someone over to help "clean things up"? I can see holes in this of course as well, however someone somehow managed to get a message sent that morning to treat the Rs as victims, not suspects, and managed to get the telephone records wiped.

Just some thoughts from a brain somewhat frazzled.

You may be frazzled, but this exact idea has been suggested before. I am sure Lockheed had a protocol for just this kind of thing- we'll never know how much outside help the Rs had that night. Because of the timely and very suspicious absence of phone records for that night, it has to be assumed there were calls made from and to the R home that night that would be suspicious.

 

[GingBreade]

This article is really interesting! (Well who knows what to believe these days holy sheet)


http://www.newsmakingnews.com/childfreed.htm

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Here are the problems with the SFF theory as espousedby HOTYH:

1) Its true purpose. Is it or is it not a genuine ransom note? Or was it written simply to taunt the Ramseys? What kind of imbecilic kidnapper would screw up a kidnapping and leave such a letter behind? This person would be too stupid to know that the family would search the entire house from top to bottom seeking evidence. If it were written simply to taunt the Ramseys, it would be useless. If it were a note genuinely requesting needed funds, it would be useless--the poor child was dead and there wouldn't be a single penny paid. The only possible reason it could have been written by an intruder would be to distract the family from the true killer, a homicidal pedophile who managed to enter the Ramsey home unnoticed, remain there for hours unnoticed, and then slip out before the sunrise, also unnoticed. Though POSSIBLE, the IMPROBABILITY of such a scenario staggers the mind. When my son was a child, I knew that he was ill or troubled a thousand miles away, and when we were together at home I would be brought to his bedside by a single breath letting me know he didn't feel well or was having a nightmare. Did the Ramseys sleep drugged?

2) HOTYH describes a Small Foreign Faction with apparent conflicting motives--they're in the Ramsey home to execute Jon Benet AND they're in the Ramsey home to kidnap Jon Benet for ransom. If the intent was execution, a note could as easily have been left stating "We killled your daughter, you pig--check out your wine cellar." (Or no note.) If the intent was kidnapping for ransom, JBR would be gone into the night. If it were a kindapping gone wrong, better NO letter than THAT particular letter. It would have to be a Small Foreign Faction of the utmost incompetence and sheer stupidity.

Many RDI knows these are not my IDI scenarios. Not exactly, anyway. IMO the intruder never intended to collect a ransom, instead wanted JBR for long-term. IF three people from SFF, as the RN in fact suggests, then their budget was probably bigger than 118K anyway.

Therefore: although it is possible that a SFF came in, botched the kidnapping and disappeared into the ether, it's highly IMPROBABLE. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. And that is, poor JBR was murdered by one of her own parents for reasons yet unknown.

At least, you can acknowledge that it is possible.

For your information, I can elaborate on an IDI scenario that probably fits the facts better than the IDI scenarios you tried to describe.

Any note places on the rear stairs would act as a tripwire, alerting intruders in the kitchen or basement of parents coming downstairs. The length of the note could be a clue that its author intended for the reader to be busy for at least a couple minutes reading the note.

I'm not sure the ransom note can be used to support an 'intruder is an idiot' argument, because the ransom note composition is agreed by RDI and IDI to be pretty good. Some have even said 'college level'. I think you'd have to wait for the facts to weigh in, to know what the ransom note purpose actually was, in order to know if the author was an idiot or not. You don't know if the kidnapping was botched or not. They could've simply changed their mind. Changing their mind isn't really a 'botched' kidnapping, is it?

 

[Sophie]

Many RDI knows these are not my IDI scenarios. Not exactly, anyway. IMO the intruder never intended to collect a ransom, instead wanted JBR for long-term. IF three people from SFF, as the RN in fact suggests, then their budget was probably bigger than 118K anyway.



At least, you can acknowledge that it is possible.

For your information, I can elaborate on an IDI scenario that probably fits the facts better than the IDI scenarios you tried to describe.

Any note places on the rear stairs would act as a tripwire, alerting intruders in the kitchen or basement of parents coming downstairs. The length of the note could be a clue that its author intended for the reader to be busy for at least a couple minutes reading the note.

I'm not sure the ransom note can be used to support an 'intruder is an idiot' argument, because the ransom note composition is agreed by RDI and IDI to be pretty good. Some have even said 'college level'. I think you'd have to wait for the facts to weigh in, to know what the ransom note purpose actually was, in order to know if the author was an idiot or not. You don't know if the kidnapping was botched or not. They could've simply changed their mind. Changing their mind isn't really a 'botched' kidnapping, is it?

I know what you mean, HOTYH, but the RN is actually a triumph of style over substance (sound like anyone?). For example, the bit about 'don't think killing will be difficult because you aren't the only fat cat around.' Total non sequitur. Equally, the profligacy with exclamation points is a real Anglophone trait so the RN writer was exceptionally bi-lingual (ie. undertsood lingustic registers) or was an Anglophone.

 

[Tadpole12]

I know what you mean, HOTYH, but the RN is actually a triumph of style over substance (sound like anyone?). For example, the bit about 'don't think killing will be difficult because you aren't the only fat cat around.' Total non sequitur. Equally, the profligacy with exclamation points is a real Anglophone trait so the RN writer was exceptionally bi-lingual (ie. undertsood lingustic registers) or was an Anglophone.

Hi Sophie.

"exclamation points is a real Anglophone trait so the RN writer was exceptionally bi-lingual (ie. undertsood lingustic registers) or was an Anglophone."

One thing I have discovered through reading about this case,
(I'm an 'anglo') first language english....

is that my vocab is frenglish,
residue of my billinge education ....I have to contiually re check my spelling ...

I look at the word I've typed and have to ask myself ...is that how it's spelled in english or in french? .... is it even a word?

I have to always double check my spelling ... and the 'proverb's .... shoot sometime I mix those up bad, the concepts and imagery.

The interchange of concepts between the language...

like 'hard' as not easy, it's hard (American)
vs 'dure', difficile/difficult.

over, under, .... etc.

So I dunno ... to me, the rn reads as very english, with just a dusting of 'le francais'.
But then again, if you're bilingual ... it's childs play.

 

[Tadpole12]

en francais:'word lingo' translation of ransom note, (not 100% accurate).

« M. Ramsey.
2. Écoutez soigneusement ! Nous sommes un groupe d'individus qui représentent
3. une petite faction étrangère. Nous respect xx votre bussiness
4. mais pas le pays qu'il sert. Actuellement nous avons
5. votre fille en notre possession. Elle a sûre et indemne et
6 ans. si vous voulez qu'elle voie 1997, vous devez suivre nos instructions
à
7. la lettre.
8. Vous retirerez $118.000.00 de votre compte. $100.000 seront
9. dans $100 factures et les $18.000 restants dans $20 factures. S'assurent
10. que vous apportez un proportionné classez l'attache à la banque. Quand vous obtenez
11. à la maison vous mettrez l'argent dans un sac de papier brun. Je vous appellerai
12. entre 8 et 10 AM demain pour vous instruire sur la livraison.
Les
13. la livraison épuisera ainsi je vous conseille d'être reposé. Si nous
14. surveillez-toi obtenant l'argent tôt, nous pourrait vous appeler tôt
à
15. arrangez une livraison plus tôt de l'argent et par conséquent des
16 plus tôt. collecte de la livraison de votre fille.
17. N'importe quelle déviation de mes instructions aura comme conséquence les
18 immédiats. exécution de votre fille. Vous lui serez également refusé les restes
19. pour l'enterrement approprié. Les deux messieurs observant au-dessus de votre fille
20. ne vous aimez pas en particulier ainsi je vous conseille de ne pas les provoquer.
21. Parlant à n'importe qui au sujet de votre situation, telle que la police, F.B.I.,
22. etc., aura comme conséquence votre fille étant décapitée. Si nous vous attrapons
23. parlant à un chien parasite, elle meurt. Si vous alertez des autorités de banque, elle
24. matrices. Si l'argent de quelque façon est identifié ou trifouillé par, elle meurt.
25. Vous serez balayé pour les dispositifs électroniques et si en sont trouvés, elle
26. matrices. Vous pouvez essayer de nous tromper mais être averti que nous sommes le familier
27. avec des contre-mesures et la tactique d'application de loi. Vous tenez un 99%
28. chance de tuer votre fille si vous nous jugez dehors à futé. Suivez
29. nos instructions et toi tenez une chance de 100% de la récupérer.
30. Toi et votre famille êtes sous l'examen minutieux constant aussi bien que les
31. autorités. N'essayez pas d'accroître un cerveau John. Vous n'êtes pas les seuls
32. le gros chat autour ainsi ne pensent pas que le massacre sera difficile. Pas
33. sous-estimez-nous John. Employez ce bon bon sens méridional à vous.
34. C'est jusqu'à toi maintenant John !
35. Victoire !
36. S.B.T.C. «


Ransom note english source: http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/

Word lingo: http://www.worldlingo.com/en/product...ranslator.html

 

[Tadpole12]

So whatta you think?


Does the rn reflect more english thought patterns than french thought?

 

[mysterymax]

Tadpole--
Please stop monopolizing this site with your trolling in disguise as "linguistics."

 

[Ames]

So whatta you think?


Does the rn reflect more english thought patterns than french thought?

Yes, because IMO..it was written by Patsy...and as far as I know, she liked all things French, even giving two of their dogs French names...Jacque 1 and Jacque 2, her daughter a French name, JonBenét complete with hyphen, and even JB's pediatricians name was Beuf, also a French name...oh, and Pierre, the little garden boy, where they hid the house key under. But, to my knowledge she didn't speak enough french to put in French thought patterns. Those thought patterns were strictly English..imo

 

[eleven]

Tadpole--
Please stop monopolizing this site with your trolling in disguise as "linguistics."

I have deleted my response after reading the post history. NOT TADPOLE'S.

 

[Sophie]

So whatta you think?


Does the rn reflect more english thought patterns than french thought?

Not sure, Tad. My French isn't as good as yours so I'd probably miss the tell-tale signs of someone thinking in French and translating into English. In all honesty, all I see is someone who is, at the very least, very fluent in idiomatic
US English - someone with a great sense of drama, culturally literate and very well-anecdoted about current affairs etc. You do make a really interesting point, though, and your translation is fascinating.

 

[Tadpole12]

Tadpole--
Please stop monopolizing this site with your trolling in disguise as "linguistics."

Hi mysterymax.

Gee I really don't know now to respond to your comment.
It's a rather confrontational comment, as I have never had any previous exchanges with you.

Hmmmm ...... I

My intent was not and has never been to 'troll'.
I don't and have never monopolized this site, as I usually just stick to one forum on this site, that being the JBR forum.

I was very much discussing linguistics, in general terms and reposted and old post of mine for reference to Sophie's reply to me.

I have noted your sensitivities.
My apologies if I've offended,

 

[Tadpole12]

Not sure, Tad. My French isn't as good as yours so I'd probably miss the tell-tale signs of someone thinking in French and translating into English. In all honesty, all I see is someone who is, at the very least, very fluent in idiomatic
US English - someone with a great sense of drama, culturally literate and very well-anecdoted about current affairs etc. You do make a really interesting point, though, and your translation is fascinating.

Hi Sophie.

It's not my translation, it is the direct result of what comes out of wordlingo .... so that's what I find to be odd .. the

I dunno ... I've read the rn so many times that when I first read the 'low end' 'Wordlingo' translation ..... I was fascinated in how much clarity there is in the 'WordLingo' translation of the rn to french.

I've never bothered to rewite the note in "proper' french,
(so I should, and I will ... when I have the time)

NO. What amazed me about the world lingo translation is that it reads well, except for the synonyms, (some are outdated and mal applied)

NO, what amazes me,
and my skills in french are rusty as well and below par) ...
is that sense that .... of 'inter -replacing', segments of each passage.

I dunno ..... like a ..........."I don't really know what"

like .... I guess if I wanted something to sound french.

I would write it in english,
cut n' paste it to word lingo,
translate it through Word Lingo ....

and then observe any distinct similarities between the two translations,
(as previously discussed the french roots in english words, hundreds of common words)

and then

I'd grab what ever concepts, mal translations and similar words that resemble english, Gentlemen, watching over, )
and then try and stick those oddities back in the english version of the rn ..

to give it that
french flare,


That would work ....
yep,

wordlingo free online translator:

http://www.worldlingo.com/en/products_services/worldlingo_translator.html

 

[DeeDee249]

PR was a Francophile, loved all things French, but I don't think she was fluent in the language. Because if she were, someone as pretentious as she was would certainly have driven her friends batty by peppering her conversations with French, n'es pas?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I know what you mean, HOTYH, but the RN is actually a triumph of style over substance (sound like anyone?). For example, the bit about 'don't think killing will be difficult because you aren't the only fat cat around.' Total non sequitur. Equally, the profligacy with exclamation points is a real Anglophone trait so the RN writer was exceptionally bi-lingual (ie. undertsood lingustic registers) or was an Anglophone.

When you apply the linguistic register filter to the ransom note, out pops a politico.

Not religion, not drama, not journalism.

Politics.

 

[Sophie]

PR was a Francophile, loved all things French, but I don't think she was fluent in the language. Because if she were, someone as pretentious as she was would certainly have driven her friends batty by peppering her conversations with French, n'es pas?

That made me do a 'lol.'

 

[Sophie]

When you apply the linguistic register filter to the ransom note, out pops a politico.

Not religion, not drama, not journalism.

Politics.

Again, HOTYH, I know what you mean, but I am not sure I can agree. The style is fairly idiomatic and is certainly written by someone who is fairly fluent in US culture. In terms of individual bits of vocabulary, I am not sure that they prove that much other than this cultural literacy: read a Western Cold War novel and you'll see the word 'countermeasures,' watch the news and someone will mention 'factions' etc. I honestly think Patsy's facility with words and her training in media trends and projecting are often over-looked.

 

[Sophie]

Hi Sophie.

It's not my translation, it is the direct result of what comes out of wordlingo .... so that's what I find to be odd .. the

I dunno ... I've read the rn so many times that when I first read the 'low end' 'Wordlingo' translation ..... I was fascinated in how much clarity there is in the 'WordLingo' translation of the rn to french.

I've never bothered to rewite the note in "proper' french,
(so I should, and I will ... when I have the time)

NO. What amazed me about the world lingo translation is that it reads well, except for the synonyms, (some are outdated and mal applied)

NO, what amazes me,
and my skills in french are rusty as well and below par) ...
is that sense that .... of 'inter -replacing', segments of each passage.

I dunno ..... like a ..........."I don't really know what"

like .... I guess if I wanted something to sound french.

I would write it in english,
cut n' paste it to word lingo,
translate it through Word Lingo ....

and then observe any distinct similarities between the two translations,
(as previously discussed the french roots in english words, hundreds of common words)

and then

I'd grab what ever concepts, mal translations and similar words that resemble english, Gentlemen, watching over, )
and then try and stick those oddities back in the english version of the rn ..

to give it that
french flare,


That would work ....
yep,

wordlingo free online translator:

http://www.worldlingo.com/en/products_services/worldlingo_translator.html

This is really interesting, Tad. At least you didn't use Babelfish (Ah: the nostalgia. 'Je me sens bien' - 'I smell myself well.'

Generally, I have looked at the fluency of the note and taken on board the assessment that it was written by someone who had better than average US English, let alone better than average English as a foreign language. I honestly don't see any real French influence and I think it will take someone like you - someone truly bilingual - to uncover any non-English linguistic patterns or to identify the actual native language or the RN-writer. It would also say something pretty tragic about Donald Foster and Andrew Hodges that they saw no French/foreign influence in the note.

Just an awful shame that the RN -writer didn't leave a taped message ETA: Well, other than the 911 call...

 

[icedtea4me]

This is really interesting, Tad. At least you didn't use Babelfish (Ah: the nostalgia. 'Je me sens bien' - 'I smell myself well.'

Generally, I have looked at the fluency of the note and taken on board the assessment that it was written by someone who had better than average US English, let alone better than average English as a foreign language. I honestly don't see any real French influence and I think it will take someone like you - someone truly bilingual - to uncover any non-English linguistic patterns or to identify the actual native language or the RN-writer. It would also say something pretty tragic about Donald Foster and Andrew Hodges that they saw no French/foreign influence in the note.

Just an awful shame that the RN -writer didn't leave a taped message ETA: Well, other than the 911 call...

Dr. Hodges' specialty is in psycholinguistics, not linguistics. Big difference.

 

[Sophie]

Dr. Hodges' specialty is in psycholinguistics, not linguistics. Big difference.

I know what you mean but I honestly think that the difference is all in the colour of the emperor's clothes: Hodges essentially did a lit crit with psycho literacy, Foster did a lit crit with years of experience of parsing poems and passages of prose.