Are the Ramseys involved or not?

[UKGuy]

Makes sense doesn't it? If the pineapple was there from earlier, it had been forgotten about and the Rs were unaware that she'd snacked on any pineapple - thus it is not worked into their storyline.

If they prepared a snack after the party, they'd have known she ate pineapple, and would have worked into the story.

If one wants to claim that the Rs should have cleaned up the breakfast bar, then one has to account for why they did not. One reason would be they were unaware JB had pineapple after the party. There are a couple ways that could happen. One is that the snack was prepared for BR - since JBs prints are not on the bowl or glass, and there is only one spoon. JB then begged, borrowed, or stole some pineapple from BR W/O the parents knowledge. Personally I regard this as pretty likely, given what was found the next morning. (It's a wonder the guests didn't clean it up)

Another way the Rs could be unaware of the snack is if the pineapple had been out from earlier in the day.

That BR prepared the snack after the parents went to bed is very unlikely, unless there is some good reason to reject the normal timeline for digestion and the timeline for full rigor.

Chrishope,

Makes sense doesn't it?

It certainly it does, in a panglossian sense.

You could generate four different scenarios, one for each R, to explain away the pineapple. Following occam and kiss, I'm going for JonBenet having a snack prepared after arriving home.

One is that the snack was prepared for BR - since JBs prints are not on the bowl or glass, and there is only one spoon. JB then begged, borrowed, or stole some pineapple from BR W/O the parents knowledge. Personally I regard this as pretty likely, given what was found the next morning. (It's a wonder the guests didn't clean it up)

Well, this suffers from the same defect as the JonBenet explanation, e.g. the R's were awake when their version of events states they were all lying in bed sound asleep!

So why did Patsy not clear up the breakfast bar? I'm suggesting its because she did not know Burke and JonBenet had a snack that night?

Obviously there is the possibility that Patsy prepared the pineaple snack, and in the madness of the staging completely forgot all about it?


.

 

[Whaleshark]

....but lots of things were left out and 'out of place'.....it's not like they tidied everything up and cleaned after themselves completely, and left the pineapple and drink out of place and unwashed uncharacteristically....they left crap out all the time... expecting housekeepers to tend to laundry, cleaning, dishes, and the like...
so thinking that Patsy would have cleaned up the snack if she knew about it, or was the one who fed it, is not characteristic of Patsy and does not necessarily tell you whether she did or didn't know about - since things were generally left unkempt by Patsy and the family anyway... and you can't go by her word either - some things were 'completely normal' and some things 'totally didn't look right' or 'not normal for a kleenex box' kind of crap :waitasec:

That day there was also -

- Drawers in JAR's bathroom left wide open
- Drawers in JonBenet's bathroom still left open
- John's bathrobe left in the Study
- Pullups left hanging out
- Soiled pants left on the floor
- Jonbenet's bedspread hanging off bed, with clothes, pillow, and things strewn around
- Red stain on jonbenet's carpet floor
- Red turtleneck still in the bathroom
- Bathroom toilet left unflushed - Patsy is asked if that was out of the ordinary. She said no. She said that JonBenet would not necessarily have flushed if she went to the bathroom by herself...
- No toilet paper roll holders in several bathrooms - not unusual.
- No clothes hampers in the house - not unusual
- Clothes piled on the chair in JAR room - not unusual
- Playroom - 'pretty much in a mess' - normal according to Patsy
- Patsy's closet shoes - 'thrown in' - normal
- 'My messy garage' - Patsy's words- normal

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-crime-photos.htm

Patsy is being shown photos of her house....

Photo #078 12/26/96 -
Kidnapping Phase -- Patsy Ramsey (6/98)

Table, Gingerbread house, Jar, Cereal Bowl, Glass (0357-11)

TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Seventy-eight.
PATSY RAMSEY: Our kitchen table. This is where the kids had made gingerbread houses. The gingerbread house sitting there. There is a little box I kept my Christmas cards in.
TRIP DEMUTH: On the right?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. It looks like a little Noah's ark. The Nutcracker. This is a bowl, a cereal bowl, that glass there. A canister or a jar, a jar. Oh, maybe a cup of coffee. This is the dining room.
TOM HANEY: Anything else in that one, 78?
PATSY RAMSEY: No

#079 12/26/96
Kidnapping Phase -- Patsy Ramsey (6/98)

Runner, flower arrangement (0358-16)

TOM HANEY: Seventy-nine.
PATSY RAMSEY: That is the dining room. This is a runner going down the middle. These are flower arrangements. A big (inaudible) thing.
TOM HANEY: Everything looks normal?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

#380 Photo on video not available -- Patsy Ramsey (6/98)

Wet bar open drawer by spiral staircase, where flashlight normally kept (0514-24)
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. And I wanted to flip back to photo 380, right there.
PATSY RAMSEY: Right, yeah, one of those drawers.
TRIP DeMUTH: One of the drawers that's depicted in 380?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember which drawer?
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I, I most recently remember it being, you know, right in this drawer.
TRIP DeMUTH: The drawer that is open?
PATSY RAMSEY: That's open there, yeah.
TRIP DeMUTH: And that's the wet bar that's by the spiral staircase, right?
PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Okay. And now looking at photo 380, you don't see a flashlight in there, right?
PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.

(0515-20)
PATSY RAMSEY: Where was this flashlight found?
TRIP DeMUTH: Well, do you remember when you came in on, in April, they showed you a picture of the flashlight? Do you recall that? You may not.
PATSY RAMSEY: No, not exactly.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. This was on the kitchen counter?
(0516-05) TRIP DeMUTH: We don't have a picture of that, do we.
TOM HANEY: No. It's in the video, I believe, but I don't...

- Even the drawer the flashlight was normally kept in, was just left open that night, with the flashlight left on the counter...

(0462-09) TRIP DEMUTH: 383.
PATSY RAMSEY: The same basket with a pen in it.
TRIP DEMUTH: That wouldn't be unusual?
PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean, you know, even the marker, the pens, they were all over the place...

BPD Crime Scene Photo Discussion - Breakfast Table, Pineapple, Bowl and Spoon -

TOM HANEY: That was 410. Now we move to 413, which is just the Boulder police photo ID, and then 414. -
PATSY RAMSEY: That little ball there, it is kind of like a little cereal bowl, but it has this huge spoon sticking out of it, and this doesn't look right. It looks kind of (inaudible). And that is -- I don't know what this is, a glass or something. But it looks like it has a tea bag in there, and I don't know who would make tea with the tea bag hanging out of there, if it is a tea bag. Hard to tell.

LOU SMIT: This is a photograph that's taken of the dining room table. And it shows various things on the dining room table. Do you see the gingerbread houses? And then you see a bowl
JOHN RAMSEY: I see a glass with what looks like (INAUDIBLE). Tissues on the glass. A couple knives.
LOU SMIT: Do you have any idea how that got on that table?
JOHN RAMSEY: It might have been (INAUDIBLE) that's a big bowl.

TOM HANEY: We will come to closer ones. Here is another shot here in 415.
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Oh, I see. That does look like a tea bag, doesn't it?
TOM HANEY: It was taken on the 29th apparently. That is just a guess based on the Boulder police.

TOM HANEY: As we get some close ups, more close ups here in 416 and 417.
PATRICK BURKE: This is probably in the 12/29 roll.
PATSY RAMSEY: That is definitely a tea bag. That is weird. Like I said, there were a lot of people around that morning.
TOM HANEY: When was the last time you recall that table being cleaned off?
PATSY RAMSEY: After -- well, we would have eaten pancakes together at that table on Christmas morning. And then I would have cleaned the table up.
TOM HANEY: Okay. In the course of having the pancake breakfast, would a glass or a bowl like that (inaudible).
PATSY RAMSEY: No. I can't tell what that is.

LOU SMIT: This is also another picture, picture 416, which also shows the same bowl, only it shows the gingerbread house, and there's some Kleenex on there and things of that nature. So I don't know. Is that the gingerbread house that the children were making?
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It looks like it. This was like in -- Patsy would know. I'm not sure why a Kleenex box is there either. That's not normal for a Kleenex box

(What is NOT NORMAL about a kleenex box sitting on a table? puh-lease... maybe if it was torn to shreds and thrown around the table like snow, with the empty box put on top of the pineapple bowl - I would say then that maybe that was not normal for a kleenex box... anyway....)

LOU SMIT: I'm going to straighten out the picture so we'll want a close up of everything. This is a photograph of 417. what does that represent there?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's a large spoon, not a teaspoon. It looks like Patsy's good silver. I guess that could be pineapple, I can't tell. But it could be. Some people (INAUDIBLE) pineapple to make it old and there's this teabag in an empty glass. I can't tell, but it looks like there is some milk or something.

LOU SMIT: Who do you know would eat pineapple like that? Do you have any idea?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well the kids like pineapple, but that's a big bowl and this is a big spoon and I can't imagine that the kids would have something like that at any time. Certainly not with iced tea, I don't think. They don't even drink iced tea. I think they do not. (INAUDIBLE) yeah...

UNTIL JR says: ..." Burke will drink sweet ice tea." ...uh, ok?

MIKE KANE: Do you recognize the bowl?
JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know. I recognize the spoon, because it's a big serving spoon. It's not like a teaspoon. And that could be one of our bowls. We had white bowls like that. Patsy would recognize it for sure. It looks like our glass.
LOU SMIT: Who would drink tea with a teabag in the glass?
JOHN RAMSEY: Somebody who would drink tea, I guess. I don't know. I don't drink tea. Burke will drink sweet ice tea. I don't remember if JonBenet did, if she did. I mean, even for someone who's there and to get out that big of a bowl and put that much pineapple in it and just leave it. That doesn't make sense.
MIKE KANE: That was a serving spoon?
JOHN RAMSEY: It's a big serving spoon. I mean don't even have an answer....

(Yeah, he has no answer.... especially if he recognizes his own spoon but not sure if he recognizes his own bowl)...

TRIP DeMUTH: Nobody uses tea like this in the glass in photo seventeen?
PATSY RAMSEY: No.
TRIP DeMUTH: You don't make tea in a glass?
PATSY RAMSEY: No, it would break the glass.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Do you recognize the glass with the tea bag in it?
PATSY RAMSEY: The glass looks like ours.
TRIP DeMUTH: All right. We talked about that already.

TRIP DeMUTH: What about that box of Kleenex that's on the table?
PATSY RAMSEY: No. TRIP DeMUTH: Is that supposed to be there?
PATSY RAMSEY: Not really, no, I don't think so
TRIP DeMUTH: Do you know where that came from, where that's supposed to be?
PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean, I had Kleenex around, usually in the kitchen, with a box in the bathroom.
TRIP DeMUTH: Was there a box of Kleenex in that dining room at all?
PATSY RAMSEY: I just -- not that I remember. It's unusual that Kleenex would be there.


OMG.

---

...And since they called in so many people that morning, who did clean up crap, and the photo was taken on a 29th roll, for all we know the pineapple and glass could have been taken out that morning when everyone was around...JonBenet could have gotten a piece of the pineapple out of the bowl when it was in the fridge by just opening the door and getting some out with her fingers... And maybe someone got the glass and pineapple out for Burke before he left that morning....

Seriously though...whether Patsy would have cleaned up or not is not going to tell us if she served it to her, or who did it.

But we do know that she ate some because it's in her stomach. So she was up at some point eating pineapple before she died.

That much we do know.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,

It certainly it does, in a panglossian sense.

You could generate four different scenarios, one for each R, to explain away the pineapple. Following occam and kiss, I'm going for JonBenet having a snack prepared after arriving home.


Well, this suffers from the same defect as the JonBenet explanation, e.g. the R's were awake when their version of events states they were all lying in bed sound asleep!

So why did Patsy not clear up the breakfast bar? I'm suggesting its because she did not know Burke and JonBenet had a snack that night?

Obviously there is the possibility that Patsy prepared the pineaple snack, and in the madness of the staging completely forgot all about it?


.

Obviously there is the possibility that Patsy prepared the pineaple snack, and in the madness of the staging completely forgot all about it?

Sure, many things are possible. But if she made the snack after the party, it's not as likely she'd forget about it.

So why did Patsy not clear up the breakfast bar? I'm suggesting its because she did not know Burke and JonBenet had a snack that night?

If you're suggesting BR prepared the snack later in the night, we know that's very very unlikely. The TOD established by rigor mortis, and the time for the pineapple to move from stomach to small intestine make it pretty clear she could not have died later than 1am, and therefore could not have eaten the pineapple later than 10:45.

Well, this suffers from the same defect as the JonBenet explanation, e.g. the R's were awake when their version of events states they were all lying in bed sound asleep!

If I recall correctly,the claim was that JB was put to bed as soon as they arrived home. It is JB eating the pineapple that creates the inconsistency between the Rs story and the medical facts, not BR eating pineapple.

You could generate four different scenarios, one for each R, to explain away the pineapple. Following occam and kiss, I'm going for JonBenet having a snack prepared after arriving home.

If we actually employed occam and kiss, we'd have to conclude only one snack was prepared and it was for Burke. There was one bowl, one spoon, one glass, with only PR/BR fingerprints. The idea that BOTH kids sat down and had a snack prepared by PR is simply not supported by the known evidence. You can imagine other bowls and spoons that for some reason were washed and put away, but that isn't KISS or Occam.

It certainly it does, in a panglossian sense.

You need to check your dictionary. Panglossian means excessively optimistic. There is nothing optimistic about suggesting JB ate some pineapple left out from earlier in the day. It's simply one way to explain why the Rs didn't account for the pineapple in their statements to police. It's neither optimistic nor pessimistic, it's simply an explanation. Nothing is being explained away. Only explained.

I don't regard the pineapple being left out from earlier as the best explanation, only one explanation. The best explanation is that a snack was prepared only for Burke, and JB had a few pieces of Burke's pineapple, w/o PR/JR being aware of it.

I'm moving on to other topics now, I think we've hashed this out about as thoroughly as possible.

 

[Chrishope]

....but lots of things were left out and 'out of place'.....it's not like they tidied everything up and cleaned after themselves completely, and left the pineapple and drink out of place and unwashed uncharacteristically....they left crap out all the time... expecting housekeepers to tend to laundry, cleaning, dishes, and the like...
so thinking that Patsy would have cleaned up the snack if she knew about it, or was the one who fed it, is not characteristic of Patsy and does not necessarily tell you whether she did or didn't know about - since things were generally left unkempt by Patsy and the family anyway... and you can't go by her word either - some things were 'completely normal' and some things 'totally didn't look right' or 'not normal for a kleenex box' kind of crap :waitasec:

That day there was also -

- Drawers in JAR's bathroom left wide open
- Drawers in JonBenet's bathroom still left open
- John's bathrobe left in the Study
- Pullups left hanging out
- Soiled pants left on the floor
- Jonbenet's bedspread hanging off bed, with clothes, pillow, and things strewn around
- Red stain on jonbenet's carpet floor
- Red turtleneck still in the bathroom
- Bathroom toilet left unflushed - Patsy is asked if that was out of the ordinary. She said no. She said that JonBenet would not necessarily have flushed if she went to the bathroom by herself...
- No toilet paper roll holders in several bathrooms - not unusual.
- No clothes hampers in the house - not unusual
- Clothes piled on the chair in JAR room - not unusual
- Playroom - 'pretty much in a mess' - normal according to Patsy
- Patsy's closet shoes - 'thrown in' - normal
- 'My messy garage' - Patsy's words- normal

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-crime-photos.htm

Patsy is being shown photos of her house....

Photo #078 12/26/96 -
Kidnapping Phase -- Patsy Ramsey (6/98)

Table, Gingerbread house, Jar, Cereal Bowl, Glass (0357-11)

TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. Seventy-eight.
PATSY RAMSEY: Our kitchen table. This is where the kids had made gingerbread houses. The gingerbread house sitting there. There is a little box I kept my Christmas cards in.
TRIP DEMUTH: On the right?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. It looks like a little Noah's ark. The Nutcracker. This is a bowl, a cereal bowl, that glass there. A canister or a jar, a jar. Oh, maybe a cup of coffee. This is the dining room.
TOM HANEY: Anything else in that one, 78?
PATSY RAMSEY: No

#079 12/26/96
Kidnapping Phase -- Patsy Ramsey (6/98)

Runner, flower arrangement (0358-16)

TOM HANEY: Seventy-nine.
PATSY RAMSEY: That is the dining room. This is a runner going down the middle. These are flower arrangements. A big (inaudible) thing.
TOM HANEY: Everything looks normal?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

#380 Photo on video not available -- Patsy Ramsey (6/98)

Wet bar open drawer by spiral staircase, where flashlight normally kept (0514-24)
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. And I wanted to flip back to photo 380, right there.
PATSY RAMSEY: Right, yeah, one of those drawers.
TRIP DeMUTH: One of the drawers that's depicted in 380?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember which drawer?
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I, I most recently remember it being, you know, right in this drawer.
TRIP DeMUTH: The drawer that is open?
PATSY RAMSEY: That's open there, yeah.
TRIP DeMUTH: And that's the wet bar that's by the spiral staircase, right?
PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Okay. And now looking at photo 380, you don't see a flashlight in there, right?
PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.

(0515-20)
PATSY RAMSEY: Where was this flashlight found?
TRIP DeMUTH: Well, do you remember when you came in on, in April, they showed you a picture of the flashlight? Do you recall that? You may not.
PATSY RAMSEY: No, not exactly.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. This was on the kitchen counter?
(0516-05) TRIP DeMUTH: We don't have a picture of that, do we.
TOM HANEY: No. It's in the video, I believe, but I don't...

- Even the drawer the flashlight was normally kept in, was just left open that night, with the flashlight left on the counter...

(0462-09) TRIP DEMUTH: 383.
PATSY RAMSEY: The same basket with a pen in it.
TRIP DEMUTH: That wouldn't be unusual?
PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean, you know, even the marker, the pens, they were all over the place...

BPD Crime Scene Photo Discussion - Breakfast Table, Pineapple, Bowl and Spoon -

TOM HANEY: That was 410. Now we move to 413, which is just the Boulder police photo ID, and then 414. -
PATSY RAMSEY: That little ball there, it is kind of like a little cereal bowl, but it has this huge spoon sticking out of it, and this doesn't look right. It looks kind of (inaudible). And that is -- I don't know what this is, a glass or something. But it looks like it has a tea bag in there, and I don't know who would make tea with the tea bag hanging out of there, if it is a tea bag. Hard to tell.

LOU SMIT: This is a photograph that's taken of the dining room table. And it shows various things on the dining room table. Do you see the gingerbread houses? And then you see a bowl
JOHN RAMSEY: I see a glass with what looks like (INAUDIBLE). Tissues on the glass. A couple knives.
LOU SMIT: Do you have any idea how that got on that table?
JOHN RAMSEY: It might have been (INAUDIBLE) that's a big bowl.

TOM HANEY: We will come to closer ones. Here is another shot here in 415.
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Oh, I see. That does look like a tea bag, doesn't it?
TOM HANEY: It was taken on the 29th apparently. That is just a guess based on the Boulder police.

TOM HANEY: As we get some close ups, more close ups here in 416 and 417.
PATRICK BURKE: This is probably in the 12/29 roll.
PATSY RAMSEY: That is definitely a tea bag. That is weird. Like I said, there were a lot of people around that morning.
TOM HANEY: When was the last time you recall that table being cleaned off?
PATSY RAMSEY: After -- well, we would have eaten pancakes together at that table on Christmas morning. And then I would have cleaned the table up.
TOM HANEY: Okay. In the course of having the pancake breakfast, would a glass or a bowl like that (inaudible).
PATSY RAMSEY: No. I can't tell what that is.

LOU SMIT: This is also another picture, picture 416, which also shows the same bowl, only it shows the gingerbread house, and there's some Kleenex on there and things of that nature. So I don't know. Is that the gingerbread house that the children were making?
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It looks like it. This was like in -- Patsy would know. I'm not sure why a Kleenex box is there either. That's not normal for a Kleenex box

(What is NOT NORMAL about a kleenex box sitting on a table? puh-lease... maybe if it was torn to shreds and thrown around the table like snow, with the empty box put on top of the pineapple bowl - I would say then that maybe that was not normal for a kleenex box... anyway....)

LOU SMIT: I'm going to straighten out the picture so we'll want a close up of everything. This is a photograph of 417. what does that represent there?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's a large spoon, not a teaspoon. It looks like Patsy's good silver. I guess that could be pineapple, I can't tell. But it could be. Some people (INAUDIBLE) pineapple to make it old and there's this teabag in an empty glass. I can't tell, but it looks like there is some milk or something.

LOU SMIT: Who do you know would eat pineapple like that? Do you have any idea?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well the kids like pineapple, but that's a big bowl and this is a big spoon and I can't imagine that the kids would have something like that at any time. Certainly not with iced tea, I don't think. They don't even drink iced tea. I think they do not. (INAUDIBLE) yeah...

UNTIL JR says: ..." Burke will drink sweet ice tea." ...uh, ok?

MIKE KANE: Do you recognize the bowl?
JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know. I recognize the spoon, because it's a big serving spoon. It's not like a teaspoon. And that could be one of our bowls. We had white bowls like that. Patsy would recognize it for sure. It looks like our glass.
LOU SMIT: Who would drink tea with a teabag in the glass?
JOHN RAMSEY: Somebody who would drink tea, I guess. I don't know. I don't drink tea. Burke will drink sweet ice tea. I don't remember if JonBenet did, if she did. I mean, even for someone who's there and to get out that big of a bowl and put that much pineapple in it and just leave it. That doesn't make sense.
MIKE KANE: That was a serving spoon?
JOHN RAMSEY: It's a big serving spoon. I mean don't even have an answer....

(Yeah, he has no answer.... especially if he recognizes his own spoon but not sure if he recognizes his own bowl)...

TRIP DeMUTH: Nobody uses tea like this in the glass in photo seventeen?
PATSY RAMSEY: No.
TRIP DeMUTH: You don't make tea in a glass?
PATSY RAMSEY: No, it would break the glass.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Do you recognize the glass with the tea bag in it?
PATSY RAMSEY: The glass looks like ours.
TRIP DeMUTH: All right. We talked about that already.

TRIP DeMUTH: What about that box of Kleenex that's on the table?
PATSY RAMSEY: No. TRIP DeMUTH: Is that supposed to be there?
PATSY RAMSEY: Not really, no, I don't think so
TRIP DeMUTH: Do you know where that came from, where that's supposed to be?
PATSY RAMSEY: No. I mean, I had Kleenex around, usually in the kitchen, with a box in the bathroom.
TRIP DeMUTH: Was there a box of Kleenex in that dining room at all?
PATSY RAMSEY: I just -- not that I remember. It's unusual that Kleenex would be there.


OMG.

---

...And since they called in so many people that morning, who did clean up crap, and the photo was taken on a 29th roll, for all we know the pineapple and glass could have been taken out that morning when everyone was around...JonBenet could have gotten a piece of the pineapple out of the bowl when it was in the fridge by just opening the door and getting some out with her fingers... And maybe someone got the glass and pineapple out for Burke before he left that morning....

Seriously though...whether Patsy would have cleaned up or not is not going to tell us if she served it to her, or who did it.

But we do know that she ate some because it's in her stomach. So she was up at some point eating pineapple before she died.

That much we do know.

...And since they called in so many people that morning, who did clean up crap, and the photo was taken on a 29th roll, for all we know the pineapple and glass could have been taken out that morning when everyone was around...JonBenet could have gotten a piece of the pineapple out of the bowl when it was in the fridge by just opening the door and getting some out with her fingers... And maybe someone got the glass and pineapple out for Burke before he left that morning....

Interesting. I had not considered that. I had not realized it was a large serving spoon, I thought it was a teaspoon. A serving spoon would suggest that the bowl was meant to be served from, not eaten from, obviously.

 

[DeeDee249]

Interesting. I had not considered that. I had not realized it was a large serving spoon, I thought it was a teaspoon. A serving spoon would suggest that the bowl was meant to be served from, not eaten from, obviously.

The spoon was a serving spoon, the bowl was not that large. More like a large cereal bowl, not a huge bowl that one might serve large amounts of food in. More like using what was lying around or the first thing grabbed. Not unusual an any household.

 

[DeeDee249]

UGH! Dee,Dee you sure Know your facts. I must say i was not prepared for that information , Since it was not penile penetration would that mean the abuse may have been from her mother?? How very, very sad, For the outside world they looked like the perfect loving family. You just never know the MONSTER hiding in the closet.

There were two Boulder police officers present at the autopsy- Det. Linda Arndt and Trujillo. The coroner TOLD Det. Arndt that the injuries he saw and the condition of her hymen were consistent with digital penetration. That means the abuser could have been anyone with that kind of access to JB. Sadly, some of the most horrible monsters a child faces are not under the bed or in a dark closet. It is their own kin. They come wearing a mask of love and caring. And this horror crosses every income and social barrier.

 

[azwriter]

Makes sense doesn't it? If the pineapple was there from earlier, it had been forgotten about and the Rs were unaware that she'd snacked on any pineapple - thus it is not worked into their storyline.

If they prepared a snack after the party, they'd have known she ate pineapple, and would have worked into the story.

If one wants to claim that the Rs should have cleaned up the breakfast bar, then one has to account for why they did not. One reason would be they were unaware JB had pineapple after the party. There are a couple ways that could happen. One is that the snack was prepared for BR - since JBs prints are not on the bowl or glass, and there is only one spoon. JB then begged, borrowed, or stole some pineapple from BR W/O the parents knowledge. Personally I regard this as pretty likely, given what was found the next morning. (It's a wonder the guests didn't clean it up)

Another way the Rs could be unaware of the snack is if the pineapple had been out from earlier in the day.

That BR prepared the snack after the parents went to bed is very unlikely, unless there is some good reason to reject the normal timeline for digestion and the timeline for full rigor.

These are great ideas concerning the Pineapple, when it was served and why it wasn't removed from the area.

But perhaps the answer is very simple. Maybe the R's were not in the dining room area after whatever happened to JonBenet. If they didn't enter that area while they were planning the fake kidnapping, the pineapple set up could easily be forgotten if they hadn't seen it while preparing the staging.

I am sure they must have had a lot on their minds and plenty to do. After all this wasn't your normal family Chiristmas night activity. A lot of out of sight, out of mind, can happen when you're busy with a cover up.
jmo

 

[Chrishope]

These are great ideas concerning the Pineapple, when it was served and why it wasn't removed from the area.

But perhaps the answer is very simple. Maybe the R's were not in the dining room area after whatever happened to JonBenet. If they didn't enter that area while they were planning the fake kidnapping, the pineapple set up could easily be forgotten if they hadn't seen it while preparing the staging.

I am sure they must have had a lot on their minds and plenty to do. After all this wasn't your normal family Chiristmas night activity. A lot of out of sight, out of mind, can happen when you're busy with a cover up.
jmo

I suspect you are correct. I sort of doubt the Rs were giving any thought to the forensics vis-a-vis pineapple.

 

[Whaleshark]

...this is assuming the pineapple was left out from the night before in the first place... just because it is in jonbenet's body, does not mean it had to be out on the table where it was found in that picture taken of it, at the time she ate it. the ramseys probably didn't know about her having some - but that also doesn't mean it had to be left out the night before on the table, yet we are trying so hard to figure out WHY they didn't notice it or account for it, if it was there the whole time, since the night before. Maybe it wasn't. Why?

...Well, let's continue the thought process from my previous post - see, we keep talking about the four people in the house that night and trying to simplify and only account for them, or one/some of them knowing exactly what happened with all items in the house -- so let's stop there for a moment -- because this was not a pristine crime scene.

Not so simple - and here's why -

This crime scene was active and moving for over 24 hours - before, during, and after Jonbenet was 'found', and before, during, and after the police got there.

In order to employ KISS and OCCAM you have to assume you arrive on the scene of the crime and everything is as it looks just after the crime was committed and nothing changed, and no one entered/left the scene after it was found. Then you can make inferences and decisions based on what you see. That is NOT what we have in this case. In fact, the crime scene was changing WHILE the crime/response was IN PROGRESS.

Once a Ramsey comfort party was called over to the house right after the police were called, then the house - the whole crime scene - became contaminated and complicated, didn't it?

- Before police called: staging within staging already took place
- After police called: friends, neighbors, and pastor immediately called -- multiple people are already arriving to the house.
- Shortly after police arrived: the Whites and Fernies show up - allowed to move about the house.
- Before police can preserve the crime scene: people are moving about the house, leaving their touch dna, touching and moving things, and ensuring that nothing can be guaranteed to be what was a part of the original crime scene!

That morning while police are showing up, waiting on kidnappers to call, JonBenet still not found - THE CRIME SCENE IS CHANGING:

- Fleet White went through the house looking for JonBenet
- Fleet went down to the basement and TOUCHED and MOVED that suitcase himself.
- Fleet found broken glass on the floor near that suitcase, under that broken window, and picked it up and put it on the ledge.
- Fleet opened the door to the wine cellar! More than once! NO JONBENET!
- Fleet made up Burke's bed!
- Fleet helped gather up Burke and his things to get him out of the house.
- Patsy's friends and victims' advocates are there comforting her, moving about her house.
- Some (how many?) photographs of crime scene / items in the house are not of the ORIGINAL crime scene - it's a FACT: "Another tech saw the ransom note on the bottom step of the spiral staircase and photographed it there. But the photograph lied. The note had traveled from the stairs, possibly into Patsy's hands, then had been spread out on the hallway floor where John Ramsey and the police had read it, and French had put it back on the stairs. The photograph, which was suppose to show exactly where evidence had been discovered, was inaccurate."

Aha!

So, I wonder what else that was photographed was not as it originally was the night of the murder? In fact, there is testimony/discussion, and confusion about which photographs are of things the way they looked as part of the 'original crime scene' (better stated as 'left untouched' by others), which are of things moved after people had just got there, which ones are of things several days later, and so on.
...Wonder if any of Patsy's friends or the victims' advocates there to comfort her/them that morning may have picked up that box of kleenex and moved it from its original location?
- Maybe to bring Patsy one to comfort her;
- Maybe to get one for Burke - it was reported that he was crying when they told him that JonBenet was missing that morning;
- Maybe to get one for themselves (anyone) if they were upset
- Or maybe just moved the box there in the process of moving things around in the kitchen area. - Just like the fact that the ransom note was moved that morning. I'd say this is likely.

How likely? Highly. Why - because this is how much was going on, and how many people were in the house that morning:

John Ramsey statement on Larry King Live:
"We had victims' advocates there. We had uniformed police; we had detectives. People were in the kitchen making sandwiches. I mean, it was -- there was -- it was chaos."
Patsy: "It was 'zoo-like'"...

So, not only were there a lot of people there that morning, so much so that it was 'chaos' and 'zoo-like'.

Let's see what the definition of CHAOS is:

1.Complete disorder and confusion.
2.Behavior so unpredictable as to appear random, owing to great sensitivity to small changes in conditions.

I would say that is the exact OPPOSITE of simple.

This is why, in this case, it is irrelevant, nay impossible, to employ KISS and OCCAM.

But wait, what was that up there I just read a moment ago? Oh, yeah - the kitchen:
People were in the kitchen making sandwiches.

Hello. So people were actually in the kitchen that morning making sandwiches. What does this do to our original crime scene? What does this mean for our photographs? Especially the ones taken on the 29th, of the bowl of pineapple and a glass with a tea bag?

Probably means the same thing it meant for having a 'photograph that was a lie', doesn't it?

If people were in the kitchen making sandwiches:
- They are probably bringing food and dish items in and out of the refrigerator, pantry, etc.
- They are not the original four people that were there that night - so they are leaving new prints, new dna, new changes to the crime scene:

They are probably getting plates, cups, utensils, napkins, misc. out and about in the kitchen/eating area.
They are forever changing the way the items originally were before the police were called and the first, and future, photographs were taken.

- But not only were there people in the kitchen making sandwiches, there were 'a couple officers in the kitchen drinking coffee'.

So, victims advocates, officers, friends, detectives, pastor -- all in that house, and several in that kitchen that morning - some eating, drinking, and moving things around.

Any of those people could have taken the pineapple bowl and that glass out and put them on the table that morning.

And if you look closely, it looks like the teabag isn't even used. And maybe the reason the Ramseys don't know why the glass has a bag in it that way, is because one of the people over there put that teabag in there, intending to make tea for Patsy, or anyone else in that house, but make it 'not the normal way' that Patsy would have. Maybe the tea never got made - and the pineapple bowl was still sitting there because the person got interrupted at that moment in time. Maybe it was the time that John Ramsey 'found' JonBenet, and the screams and all that occurred. And in all that chaos, those items were left on the table and forgotten forever....until a photo is taken of the items... and lo and behold, those items, along with the kleenex, etc. are 'not normal' for the Ramseys.

It's really brilliant if you think about it -- the whole scenario that morning. By having a 'zoo-like' chaos that morning, with the crime scene forever tainted, numerous people in and out of the house, things being used and changed constantly -- things being put 'out of their place' naturally by all the people there that morning - there's no way to know what was done by the people there, the Ramseys themselves, or the 'intruder'..... just no way to know.

The house is in general disarray anyway, continued chaos and items forever contaminated and changed...and even after the body is found...further changes and contamination: people going in and out, and Patsy's sister being allowed to enter the house and remove more items.

This crime scene was never secure, and it was ever-changing.

Brilliant.

There is NO WAY to know for sure when that pineapple was really last taken out of that fridge.

And the Ramseys wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[UKGuy]

The spoon was a serving spoon, the bowl was not that large. More like a large cereal bowl, not a huge bowl that one might serve large amounts of food in. More like using what was lying around or the first thing grabbed. Not unusual an any household.

DeeDee249,
To Do: urls not being formatted properly.

.

 

[Chrishope]

...this is assuming the pineapple was left out from the night before in the first place... just because it is in jonbenet's body, does not mean it had to be out on the table where it was found in that picture taken of it, at the time she ate it. the ramseys probably didn't know about her having some - but that also doesn't mean it had to be left out the night before on the table, yet we are trying so hard to figure out WHY they didn't notice it or account for it, if it was there the whole time, since the night before. Maybe it wasn't. Why?

...Well, let's continue the thought process from my previous post - see, we keep talking about the four people in the house that night and trying to simplify and only account for them, or one/some of them knowing exactly what happened with all items in the house -- so let's stop there for a moment -- because this was not a pristine crime scene.

Not so simple - and here's why -

This crime scene was active and moving for over 24 hours - before, during, and after Jonbenet was 'found', and before, during, and after the police got there.

In order to employ KISS and OCCAM you have to assume you arrive on the scene of the crime and everything is as it looks just after the crime was committed and nothing changed, and no one entered/left the scene after it was found. Then you can make inferences and decisions based on what you see. That is NOT what we have in this case. In fact, the crime scene was changing WHILE the crime/response was IN PROGRESS.

Once a Ramsey comfort party was called over to the house right after the police were called, then the house - the whole crime scene - became contaminated and complicated, didn't it?

- Before police called: staging within staging already took place
- After police called: friends, neighbors, and pastor immediately called -- multiple people are already arriving to the house.
- Shortly after police arrived: the Whites and Fernies show up - allowed to move about the house.
- Before police can preserve the crime scene: people are moving about the house, leaving their touch dna, touching and moving things, and ensuring that nothing can be guaranteed to be what was a part of the original crime scene!

That morning while police are showing up, waiting on kidnappers to call, JonBenet still not found - THE CRIME SCENE IS CHANGING:

- Fleet White went through the house looking for JonBenet
- Fleet went down to the basement and TOUCHED and MOVED that suitcase himself.
- Fleet found broken glass on the floor near that suitcase, under that broken window, and picked it up and put it on the ledge.
- Fleet opened the door to the wine cellar! More than once! NO JONBENET!
- Fleet made up Burke's bed!
- Fleet helped gather up Burke and his things to get him out of the house.
- Patsy's friends and victims' advocates are there comforting her, moving about her house.
- Some (how many?) photographs of crime scene / items in the house are not of the ORIGINAL crime scene - it's a FACT: "Another tech saw the ransom note on the bottom step of the spiral staircase and photographed it there. But the photograph lied. The note had traveled from the stairs, possibly into Patsy's hands, then had been spread out on the hallway floor where John Ramsey and the police had read it, and French had put it back on the stairs. The photograph, which was suppose to show exactly where evidence had been discovered, was inaccurate."

Aha!

So, I wonder what else that was photographed was not as it originally was the night of the murder? In fact, there is testimony/discussion, and confusion about which photographs are of things the way they looked as part of the 'original crime scene' (better stated as 'left untouched' by others), which are of things moved after people had just got there, which ones are of things several days later, and so on.
...Wonder if any of Patsy's friends or the victims' advocates there to comfort her/them that morning may have picked up that box of kleenex and moved it from its original location?
- Maybe to bring Patsy one to comfort her;
- Maybe to get one for Burke - it was reported that he was crying when they told him that JonBenet was missing that morning;
- Maybe to get one for themselves (anyone) if they were upset
- Or maybe just moved the box there in the process of moving things around in the kitchen area. - Just like the fact that the ransom note was moved that morning. I'd say this is likely.

How likely? Highly. Why - because this is how much was going on, and how many people were in the house that morning:

John Ramsey statement on Larry King Live:
"We had victims' advocates there. We had uniformed police; we had detectives. People were in the kitchen making sandwiches. I mean, it was -- there was -- it was chaos."
Patsy: "It was 'zoo-like'"...

So, not only were there a lot of people there that morning, so much so that it was 'chaos' and 'zoo-like'.

Let's see what the definition of CHAOS is:

1.Complete disorder and confusion.
2.Behavior so unpredictable as to appear random, owing to great sensitivity to small changes in conditions.

I would say that is the exact OPPOSITE of simple.

This is why, in this case, it is irrelevant, nay impossible, to employ KISS and OCCAM.

But wait, what was that up there I just read a moment ago? Oh, yeah - the kitchen:
People were in the kitchen making sandwiches.

Hello. So people were actually in the kitchen that morning making sandwiches. What does this do to our original crime scene? What does this mean for our photographs? Especially the ones taken on the 29th, of the bowl of pineapple and a glass with a tea bag?

Probably means the same thing it meant for having a 'photograph that was a lie', doesn't it?

If people were in the kitchen making sandwiches:
- They are probably bringing food and dish items in and out of the refrigerator, pantry, etc.
- They are not the original four people that were there that night - so they are leaving new prints, new dna, new changes to the crime scene:

They are probably getting plates, cups, utensils, napkins, misc. out and about in the kitchen/eating area.
They are forever changing the way the items originally were before the police were called and the first, and future, photographs were taken.

- But not only were there people in the kitchen making sandwiches, there were 'a couple officers in the kitchen drinking coffee'.

So, victims advocates, officers, friends, detectives, pastor -- all in that house, and several in that kitchen that morning - some eating, drinking, and moving things around.

Any of those people could have taken the pineapple bowl and that glass out and put them on the table that morning.

And if you look closely, it looks like the teabag isn't even used. And maybe the reason the Ramseys don't know why the glass has a bag in it that way, is because one of the people over there put that teabag in there, intending to make tea for Patsy, or anyone else in that house, but make it 'not the normal way' that Patsy would have. Maybe the tea never got made - and the pineapple bowl was still sitting there because the person got interrupted at that moment in time. Maybe it was the time that John Ramsey 'found' JonBenet, and the screams and all that occurred. And in all that chaos, those items were left on the table and forgotten forever....until a photo is taken of the items... and lo and behold, those items, along with the kleenex, etc. are 'not normal' for the Ramseys.

It's really brilliant if you think about it -- the whole scenario that morning. By having a 'zoo-like' chaos that morning, with the crime scene forever tainted, numerous people in and out of the house, things being used and changed constantly -- things being put 'out of their place' naturally by all the people there that morning - there's no way to know what was done by the people there, the Ramseys themselves, or the 'intruder'..... just no way to know.

The house is in general disarray anyway, continued chaos and items forever contaminated and changed...and even after the body is found...further changes and contamination: people going in and out, and Patsy's sister being allowed to enter the house and remove more items.

This crime scene was never secure, and it was ever-changing.

Brilliant.

There is NO WAY to know for sure when that pineapple was really last taken out of that fridge.

And the Ramsey's wouldn't have it any other way.

So really we can't draw any conclusions from the pineapple bowl.

 

[Whaleshark]

pretty much.

 

[Chrishope]

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/basics/transit.html

 

[UKGuy]

DeeDee249,
To Do: urls not being formatted properly.

.

Testing:

 

[SapphireSteel]

It does my heart good to see that despite all the lies, the cover-ups, the political bs that has been generated around this case, and the public "exoneration", three quarters of us still believe RDI.

The general population at large has been treated like they are idiots in this case by Colorado politicians. Thank God we can see through the lies and mistruths, and still see the shape of what really happened that night.

Now all we need is for public pressure to force an inquest.

 

[UKGuy]

Testing:

..........

 

[UKGuy]

The spoon was a serving spoon, the bowl was not that large. More like a large cereal bowl, not a huge bowl that one might serve large amounts of food in. More like using what was lying around or the first thing grabbed. Not unusual an any household.

DeeDee249,
Post Abandonded.

 

[UKGuy]

DeeDee249,
Post Abandonded.

Testing Image Insertion:

.

 

[brit1981]

There was a documentary called "who killed the pageant queen" shown in the Uk a few years ago. It showed how people other than the parents could have been involved. was this ever shown in the US, was it believed or discounted?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...et-feels-putting-daughter-public-display.html

the above is an article from march talking to John ramsey. I did wonder about the £118K ransom. It is so exact it makes me wonder if the ramseys would be that stupid, but it makes me think if they were not involved it must have been either someone they knew or someone who was stalking them or someone who had been in the house before.

One distrubing thing about this article is that the pageants look even worse. At least Jonbenet looked like a little girl, but some of these five year olds have been so made up they look middle aged. and WTF is the toddler dressed as a prostitue for? I would have thought after Jonbenet these pageants would have ended, but instead they became more popular.

 

[SapphireSteel]

There was a documentary called "who killed the pageant queen" shown in the Uk a few years ago. It showed how people other than the parents could have been involved. was this ever shown in the US, was it believed or discounted?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...et-feels-putting-daughter-public-display.html

the above is an article from march talking to John ramsey. I did wonder about the £118K ransom. It is so exact it makes me wonder if the ramseys would be that stupid, but it makes me think if they were not involved it must have been either someone they knew or someone who was stalking them or someone who had been in the house before.

One distrubing thing about this article is that the pageants look even worse. At least Jonbenet looked like a little girl, but some of these five year olds have been so made up they look middle aged. and WTF is the toddler dressed as a prostitue for? I would have thought after Jonbenet these pageants would have ended, but instead they became more popular.

I don't think anyone has ever accused PR of being the sharpest knife in the drawer.