Ausgirl's serial killer theory: The chicken or the egg?
- Thread starter Ausgirl
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Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #182
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Hi Ausgirl! Im glad to see your still posting,your one of my favorites!
You havent read about Dean Corll's case?
My first impulse was to say "Do yourself a favor.....dont!"
In my book he was one of the worst....ever.
He has a thread in this forum,unfortunately im pretty familiar with the case.
If you have any questions about that one dont hesitate to ask.
Kline, I read a little bit so far - he reminds me of John Gacy a bit, he 'recruited' boys to help him, also. I'll have a look at the thread, and also the various comments on his upbringing. So far I'm seeing a lot demonising of his parents, but not a single cited source for any of the comments about them. Which is pretty usual, in these cases.
There's something very 'off' about Dahmer's parents, is my honest opinion. I think neither are being 100% honest in that interview above. But it remains that his brother is a relatively normal individual - in a house so cruel as to 'create' a monster like Dahmer, why isn't his brother 100 kinds of messed up, too? Yet he seems to be leading a decent life.
In my own childhood there were lots of times when, like Dahmer, I'd take off for a quiet place away from home, somewhere I felt safe to vent my feelings. I remember having fantasies of what I'd do if I was in charge of "everything", too. But mine were hopeful, fantasies of a better life rather than rage or revenge most of the time. I also developed a laundry list of OCD and dissociative behaviours, passive ways to protect myself and gain a sense of control, rather than taking it out on animals and such. My only persistently destructive fantasies were usually aimed at kids who were cruel to me... I used to imagine I had a pet swarm of snakes that'd go around and sort them out. Oh dear...
Which is interesting, because if you look at all these men -- Dahmer, Dupas, Kemper, Percy -- the other thing they all have in common is that were bullied by other kids. But that's always mentioned as a by-the-by sort of thing. And recalling how much it affected me in my own childhood - which was far worse in terms of parental abuse than anything these men experienced - I have to wonder how much that bullying by peers contributed to the plethora of things which made them experience the urge to kill - and kill again.
There's something very 'off' about Dahmer's parents, is my honest opinion. I think neither are being 100% honest in that interview above. But it remains that his brother is a relatively normal individual - in a house so cruel as to 'create' a monster like Dahmer, why isn't his brother 100 kinds of messed up, too? Yet he seems to be leading a decent life.
In my own childhood there were lots of times when, like Dahmer, I'd take off for a quiet place away from home, somewhere I felt safe to vent my feelings. I remember having fantasies of what I'd do if I was in charge of "everything", too. But mine were hopeful, fantasies of a better life rather than rage or revenge most of the time. I also developed a laundry list of OCD and dissociative behaviours, passive ways to protect myself and gain a sense of control, rather than taking it out on animals and such. My only persistently destructive fantasies were usually aimed at kids who were cruel to me... I used to imagine I had a pet swarm of snakes that'd go around and sort them out. Oh dear...
Which is interesting, because if you look at all these men -- Dahmer, Dupas, Kemper, Percy -- the other thing they all have in common is that were bullied by other kids. But that's always mentioned as a by-the-by sort of thing. And recalling how much it affected me in my own childhood - which was far worse in terms of parental abuse than anything these men experienced - I have to wonder how much that bullying by peers contributed to the plethora of things which made them experience the urge to kill - and kill again.
I was just reviewing all the available info on Bundy and the alleged abuse in his early life... and I have concluded that the vast majority of this info can be sourced to a psychiatrist -hired by his family- who interviewed Bundy and his relatives, who offered up family stories of the violent grandfather, etc., before the psych then testified for the defense. Keeping in mind that Bundy's mother supported him all the way through the trial, and that Bundy was a master manipulator whose express interest was in finding ANY reason to avoid his death sentence, let alone this psych was *paid* by the family, I kind of have to eyeball those claims.
Brightbird
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I think your theory is very plausible Ausgirl. I watched a doco on the Ukranian serial killer Anatoly Oprienko tonight and it made me think. I wonder if your theory would hold up cross-culturally? If domineering mothers/aloof fathers are a cause then you'd at least expect to see something similar in other cultures or socio-economic levels. You often hear about abandonment or neglect in the early lives of serial killers, and I wonder if that's just a different strategy to dealing with a difficult or disturbing child. If things are tough economically, it is probably more practical to abandon a child than become over-protective and domineering. Perhaps there are other cultures where abandoning a child has less social stigma than say middle-class anglo society. Similarly, neglect could be a parent's response to a child that they can't connect with or who has disturbing behaviour. Obviously I'm not talking about most cases of abandonment or neglect where it's entirely due to the parent. It could also be an interaction, where a disturbed child has parents who reject them or control them and this sets up a kind of feedback loop.
bessie
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This might be of interest
Psychopaths don't understand punishment, study reveals
By Richard Gray for MailOnline
Published: 06:16 EST, 29 January 2015 | Updated: 19:08 EST, 29 January 2015
[...]
Professor Sheilagh Hodgins, from the University of Montreal who was also involved in the study, said learning from punishment was an important part of regulating behaviour.
She said: 'Offenders with psychopathy may only consider the possible positive consequences and fail to take account of the likely negative consequences.
'Consequently, their behavior often leads to punishment rather than reward as they had expected.
'Punishment signals the necessity to change behaviour. Clearly, in certain situations, offenders have difficulty learning from punishment to change their behaviour.'
She added: 'Since most violent crimes are committed by men who display conduct problems from a young age, learning-based interventions that target the specific brain mechanisms underlying this behaviour pattern and thereby change the behaviour would significantly reduce violent crime.'
Punishment and psychopathy: a case-control functional MRI investigation of reinforcement learning in violent antisocial personality disordered men
Background
Men with antisocial personality disorder show lifelong abnormalities in adaptive decision making guided by the weighing up of reward and punishment information. Among men with antisocial personality disorder, modification of the behaviour of those with additional diagnoses of psychopathy seems particularly resistant to punishment.
cont. at the link
Psychopaths don't understand punishment, study reveals
By Richard Gray for MailOnline
Published: 06:16 EST, 29 January 2015 | Updated: 19:08 EST, 29 January 2015
[...]
Professor Sheilagh Hodgins, from the University of Montreal who was also involved in the study, said learning from punishment was an important part of regulating behaviour.
She said: 'Offenders with psychopathy may only consider the possible positive consequences and fail to take account of the likely negative consequences.
'Consequently, their behavior often leads to punishment rather than reward as they had expected.
'Punishment signals the necessity to change behaviour. Clearly, in certain situations, offenders have difficulty learning from punishment to change their behaviour.'
She added: 'Since most violent crimes are committed by men who display conduct problems from a young age, learning-based interventions that target the specific brain mechanisms underlying this behaviour pattern and thereby change the behaviour would significantly reduce violent crime.'
Punishment and psychopathy: a case-control functional MRI investigation of reinforcement learning in violent antisocial personality disordered men
Background
Men with antisocial personality disorder show lifelong abnormalities in adaptive decision making guided by the weighing up of reward and punishment information. Among men with antisocial personality disorder, modification of the behaviour of those with additional diagnoses of psychopathy seems particularly resistant to punishment.
cont. at the link
Are you familiar with the works of Stanton Samenow? He was a psychiatrist at St. Elizabeth's Hospital here in the US, where he worked with the criminally insane. Many of his observations mirror yours. Of note, perhaps the family was so busy dealing with the child's many dysfunctions, that the family itself became dysfunctional.