Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #20

[meticulously]

The article with a photo of the front page of the Post is at the top 541 of 10 page 37 it's blurred I was hoping PD or papertrail has a clearer one.

I would imagine that they ran the TD's DNA against everyone listed on the data base scanner like they do with fingerprints and got quite a few surprises.

"The article with a photo of the front page of the Post is at the top 541 of 10 page 37 "


"I would imagine that they ran the TD's DNA against everyone listed on the data base scanner"


Janwa this doesnt make sense imo .

What do you mean by "top 541 of 10 page 37" ?

And "ran the TDs DNA" ?

 

[Innerchild]

"It's not that the kimono is the link but there is DNA on the kimono that is the link between the Huntingdale assault and VC's murder". That is your opinion or fact [emoji780]

Alleged Fact. Kimono was taken from a clothes line. Confirmed by Karl OK in December 22nd 2016 press conference on arrest of Bra. In 17th Feb 1988 front page report, Det Sgt Kiernan is appealing for anyone who recognises the kimono to come forward. Kimono was not taken from VC's clothes line. 17th Feb 1988 report also make a point of saying womens underwear is going missing from clothes lines and bedrooms in the local area.

Alleged Fact. DNA on the kimono belongs to Bra. Confirmed by Karl OK in December 22nd 2016 press conference on arrest of Bra. DNA does not belong to David Masters.

Alleged Fact. Kimono Clue to a Brutal Murder. Headline and picture on 17th Feb 1988. Police hope this may be the clue that helps solve the brutal murder of Victoria Heather Clark.

Alleged Fact: USA sailor was forensically cleared of her sexual assault murder. "Detectives had interviewed the 36 year old serviceman at length on Saturday and cleared him after forensic tests." and "Exhaustive questioning of Miss Clark's neighbors and friends had failed to shine any new light on the killing." Perth newspapers 10-12 September 1997.

Fact: DTM confessed to the sexual assault and murder of VC, after being convicted and sentenced in Queesnland to 7 years non parole for the 1991 murder of a British backpacker. He was sentenced to life with a 7 year non parole period in WA. WA non parole law changed after he started his sentence and parole has to be applied for every three years after the non parole period has expired and DM is still in custody almost 21 years after sentencing.

My opinion is that cops had forensic evidence at the scene of VC sexual assault and murder, which they used to clear poi's. This forensic evidence matched DNA on the kimono left at Huntingdale indecent assault in Feb 1988 and Bra. This forensic evidence does not belong to DM. However DM confessed so I assume he must have had clear knowledge of the crime and either committed it or was at the crime scene when the sexual assault and murder was committed. I don't think he was the only offender and Bra is a lucky SK.

My opinion is that DM was disturbed and affected by the crime to the point where he was unable to work or carry on a normal life. He left WA within months and drifted around Queensland, NT and the north or WA until he committed the murder of the British backpacker almost 4 years later.

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

I would imagine that they ran the TD's DNA against everyone listed on the data base scanner like they do with fingerprints and got quite a few surprises.

So are you saying that police had DNA databases even back in 1997 to 1998?
Obviously more basic records than available now - but still identifiable DNA records database.

 

[Bunnie]

So are you saying that police had DNA databases even back in 1997 to 1998?
Obviously more basic records than available now - but still identifiable DNA records.

This may help...

https://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/43-dna-database-systems/dna-database-systems

 

[Innerchild]

Bit baffled by this assertion as well. We didn't have DNA testing back then to make a definitive link?

But it's the police in holding up A kimono and very casually linking it to the Victoria Clarke murder which is what might have prompted someone to give BRE an alibi on the night the Huntingdale attack occurred.

I can hear it now ... "The police have been asking to see Bradley over an assault on that girl last week ..... they're trying to connect it to a murder in Victoria Park! omfg!"

Speculation on my part.

Good point. Being linked to VC's murder, and in my opinion it's not a casual link but the main reason for front page appeal, would discourage any family or friends from putting his name forward. However, I don't think his name came up at all, and the connection to the DNA not until a long time later.

DNA had been used by British successfully in prosecutions since 1986. Forensic DNA profiling began in Australia in 1988. http://archive.industry.gov.au/Biotechnologyonline.gov.au/human/dnaforensic.html

It wasn't confirmed that the cops had DNA on the kimono until Karl's press conference on the arrest December 23 2016.

 

[BReVeTTe]

carried over from thread#19
but i am unable to quote meticulously who said :
For those who want to sleuth cctv (snipped) This is another version of cctv footage, Flect.

https://youtu.be/hbbg-FVij4c For those who want to sleuth cctv ... This is another version of cctv footage, Flect.

firstly, please excuse my ignorance, but what does 'Flect' mean??

And apologies if I'v overlooked any earlier discussion of this particular version of CCTV surveillance from the night of Jane Rimmer's disappearance ; It is clearly different to that shown in Steve Liebman's documentary.
Is it an official version?
Because I couldn't help but notice it contains a single flash frame of the Hotel's ice machine which, from memory, we established (in about thread#9 ?) was situated at the rear of the premises where there was a general employee's throughfare which would necessarily have also served as an alternative entrance/exit for the public per OHS purpose and requirement.
I'm wondering if there was vehicle access at that point eg. for deliveries?
The single frame has an almost illegible time stamp which, from what I am able to decipher, appears to be the hour 02: - well out of sequence with the time recorded by cameras covering other more discussed areas of the premises - in particular the camera view where we believe Jane was last sighted standing kerbside.

Has this particular frame been isolated for discussion previously?
Am I correct about the time stamp?
Could the segment order have inadvertently been mixed up during production?

I see what could be the front fender of a vehicle near centre pic, and disturbingly, what appears to be a partly clad female (top right) being assisted either onto (or down from) a low rooftop.
I'v zoomed the frame's time stamp closely, and if correct about the hour, could this view possibly provide further insight as to which direction Jane disappeared? Did she in fact really leave the Hotel when last sighted, or did she simply walk a few metres to the bottleshop and rear parking area around the corner ?
frame seen at the 45second mark in above linked video

...a speculated theory much dependent on both my interpretation of the time stamp in the single frame of the ice machine, and the authenticity of this CCTV version posted for further sleuthing.
[emoji887]

 

[janwa]

"The article with a photo of the front page of the Post is at the top 541 of 10 page 37 "
"I would imagine that they ran the TD's DNA against everyone listed on the data base scanner"
Janwa this doesnt make sense imo .
What do you mean by "top 541 of 10 page 37" ?
And "ran the TDs DNA" ?

Sorry if it's not clear. You said the link took you to the bottom, the post of the Post newspaper article is at the top.
It's Thread 10, page 37 item 541

TD's= Taxi drivers (I recall some wouldn't do the test, some quit and other crimes were cleared up) just my recollection

 

[El Gordo]

So are you saying that police had DNA databases even back in 1997 to 1998?
Obviously more basic records than available now - but still identifiable DNA records database.

I had DNA swabs taken from my mouth in 1989 at Freo police station , I can remember clearly having a conversation with the policewoman asking what it was all about ... she told me a bit and I asked if it was a new version of fingerprints ... she said basically yes ... it has obviously advanced since then , but they were taking DNA samples in 1989 for future reference ... I did have to give permission for them to take it .unlike finger prints

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

Thanks DRT

(So repeating/continuing with the DNA summary post that I made at end of thread 19)

DNA summary

Can sleuths please help compile and confirm this list of dates when:

- DNA collected from taxi drivers (1997-1998)
- LCN DNA confirmed on CG(2008 or 2009)
- [general link made between KK and CG cases (2009)]
- WAPOL obtain DNA sample from LW and rule him out (date?)- KK DNA retested (2015?)
- DNS Link made public between KK and CG DNA samples (2015?)
- HD/Kimono DNA retested (2016)
- HD/Kimono DNA link made public to KK and CG cases.


Someone please explain to me WHICH DNA sample were the taxi drivers DNAs compared against to rule them in or out?????

TIA

This may help...

https://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/43-dna-database-systems/dna-database-systems

Thanks Bunnie. I've added this info you've provided to my timeline below.

...continuing the DNA summary timeline...

Can sleuths please help compile and confirm this list of dates when:

1997 to 1998 - DNA collected from taxi drivers
2001 - National Criminal Investigation DNA Database (NCIDD) system established
?2008 or 2009 - LCN DNA confirmed on CG
[?2009 - general 'non-DNA' link made between KK and CG cases]
?date -WAPOL obtain DNA sample from LW
?date - LW ruled out as POI as non-matching DNA sample
? 2015 - KK DNA retested with new forensic methods
?2015 - DNA Link made public between KK and CG DNA samples
2016 - HD/Kimono DNA retested with new forensic methods
2016 - HD/Kimono DNA link to KK and CG cases made public

 

[petedavo.au]

Article about Floreat vis a vis the Huntingdale assault victim

http://postnewspapers.com.au/w...ent/uploads/2017/01/070117.pdf


Sent from my HTC 2PQ910 using Tapatalk

 

[Canning Vale]

TheSecondLaw,

Prior to the Kwinana Fwy being built there was a short-cut which could be taken through Baldvis – quicker for those travelling north / south. The shortcut was via the eastern side of Mandurah Rd and Kerosine Lane, but I can’t remember exactly which roads.

Are your thoughts JR had spent some time within the Mandurah area – taken to Woolcoot Rd on-route back toward the southern suburbs?

https://www.google.com.au/maps/dir/Madora+Bay,+Western+Australia+6210/Woolcoot+Rd,+Wellard+WA+6170/@-32.3630294,115.6661285,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x2a327e769991e5df:0x504f0b535df4a10!2m2!1d115.749!2d-32.471!1m5!1m1!1s0x2a328ff1ac391683:0x69c61c0bd4aa04a7!2m2!1d115.8615771!2d-32.2638033!3e0

https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-32.2984637,115.8062169,14z

 

[janwa]

So are you saying that police had DNA databases even back in 1997 to 1998?
Obviously more basic records than available now - but still identifiable DNA records database.

Initially, the Macro taskforce, the unit set up to catch the killer, believed all three women may have been taken by a taxi driver because all three had left friends in search of a cab.
This lead sparked a massive overhaul of the WA taxi industry – and triggered fear among the taxi-using public.
Women no longer felt safe to travel in cabs alone.
DNA testing was carried out on all licensed taxi drivers in WA, as well as review into their personal backgrounds. Those with a criminal history were immediately de-licensed and standards for the industry were raised.
A report to the WA Parliament revealed the fear generated by the killings led to a 25 to 30 per cent drop in taxi usage in the city, prompting the taxi industry to volunteer for the mass swabs.
Eventually all the taxi drivers who had taken part were excluded from inquiries.

 

[Pandit]

Bit like a chicken egg argument ... which came first?

1. They opened the Huntingdale file when the kimono's DNA was matched to the CSK and found the name in there to pursue.

or

2. The kimono's DNA was matched to a familial already in the database.

Number 1. :drumroll:

Winner winner chicken dinner!

 

[janwa]

Article about Floreat vis a vis the Huntingdale assault victim
http://postnewspapers.com.au/w...ent/uploads/2017/01/070117.pdf
Sent from my HTC 2PQ910 using Tapatalk

PD the link didn't work for me.
Just said Oh no the page you requested couldn't be found. Could you write a precis version of what was said please.

 

[Innerchild]

carried over from thread#19
but i am unable to quote meticulously who said :
For those who want to sleuth cctv (snipped) This is another version of cctv footage, Flect.




firstly, please excuse my ignorance, but what does 'Flect' mean??

And apologies if I'v overlooked any earlier discussion of this particular version of CCTV surveillance from the night of Jane Rimmer's disappearance ; It is clearly different to that shown in Steve Liebman's documentary.
Is it an official version?
Because I couldn't help but notice it contains a single flash frame of the Hotel's ice machine which, from memory, we established (in about thread#9 ?) was situated at the rear of the premises where there was a general employee's throughfare which would necessarily have also served as an alternative entrance/exit for the public per OHS purpose and requirement.
I'm wondering if there was vehicle access at that point eg. for deliveries?
The single frame has an almost illegible time stamp which, from what I am able to decipher, appears to be the hour 02: - well out of sequence with the time recorded by cameras covering other more discussed areas of the premises - in particular the camera view where we believe Jane was last sighted standing kerbside.

Has this particular frame been isolated for discussion previously?
Am I correct about the time stamp?
Could the segment order have inadvertently been mixed up during production?

I see what could be the front fender of a vehicle near centre pic, and disturbingly, what appears to be a partly clad female (top right) being assisted either onto (or down from) a low rooftop.
I'v zoomed the frame's time stamp closely, and if correct about the hour, could this view possibly provide further insight as to which direction Jane disappeared? Did she in fact really leave the Hotel when last sighted, or did she simply walk a few metres to the bottleshop and rear parking area around the corner ?
frame seen at the 45second mark in above linked video

...a speculated theory much dependent on both my interpretation of the time stamp in the single frame of the ice machine, and the authenticity of this CCTV version posted for further sleuthing.
[emoji887]

As far as I understand the Flect vision are extra frames left out of the Crime Investigation doco. They can be estimated in sequence using the times stamps although timestamps have been obviously manipulated and changed in some of the frames. This one could even be 08.08... It's too hard to tell.

But the image of a girl!! That is weird. Possibly could have been manipulated from another frame while they were doctoring another image otherwise, I'm at a loss.

There are many reasons why I have doubt that the story the cops told and the images they released were correct, but it doesn't seem realistic that someone would be on the roof with that body position. What do others think?

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

Woolcoot Rd (I believe) could have been used as a 'thoroughfare' in the mid-90's, though part or most of the road was not bitumised at that point in time. Going by JR's location she could have just as likely been placed there on a 'return trip' as she could have been placed there directly coming from the Claremont area for example. It seems the direction was heading North, but that's not a given.

Upon trying to re-view historical aeriel imagery of the area (it's been a while), unfortunately the Landgate Map Viewer isn't playing ball at the moment. The viewer has been a bit hit and miss (for me) ever since it was updated away from the Java platform last year!

IIRC JR was on the western verge/side of Woolcoot Road.

Its pretty hard to determine which direction the alleged CSK travelled on Woolcoot Rd - either heading north or heading south, because the alleged CSK could have been:

A) travelling south, then 'chucked a u-ee' (did a u-turn) at intersection of Millar and Woolcoot while also checking for oncoming traffic travelling towards him on Millar Rd, then headed north back up Woolcoot, pulling over to LHS of road to dispose of body.

B) at some location further south than Wellard, and was using MIllar-Woolcoot route home, and just pulled over to LHS of road while heading north on Woolcoot to dispose of body.

C) heading south on Woolcoot and pulled over to RHS of road, parking 'illegally' facing oncoming traffic, and then disposed of body.

 

[TheSecondLaw]

TheSecondLaw,

Prior to the Kwinana Fwy being built there was a short-cut which could be taken through Baldvis – quicker for those travelling north / south. The shortcut was via the eastern side of Mandurah Rd and Kerosine Lane, but I can’t remember exactly which roads.

Are your thoughts JR had spent some time within the Mandurah area – taken to Woolcoot Rd on-route back toward the southern suburbs?

https://www.google.com.au/maps/dir/Madora+Bay,+Western+Australia+6210/Woolcoot+Rd,+Wellard+WA+6170/@-32.3630294,115.6661285,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x2a327e769991e5df:0x504f0b535df4a10!2m2!1d115.749!2d-32.471!1m5!1m1!1s0x2a328ff1ac391683:0x69c61c0bd4aa04a7!2m2!1d115.8615771!2d-32.2638033!3e0

https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-32.2984637,115.8062169,14z

Hi Canning Vale,

When I was a teenager in the mid to late 90's, on the run from Perth's southeastern suburbs down to Bunbury, I would take a similar short-cut along with the family. The path regularly travelled each way was :

Nicholson Rd -> Thomas Rd -> King Rd -> Mundijong Rd -> Baldivis Rd -> Kerosene Ln -> Mandurah Rd ... And so forth down through Mandurah.

We never went via Woolcoot Rd, but have distinct memories of having poor JR's discovery in mind whenever we would go through that area from thereon afterwards.

That JR could have been placed there coming back up from Madora Bay is perfectly possible, but perhaps that place was chosen if the accused was already familiar with Woolcoot Rd from using it as a similar shortcut.

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

They didn't match at the time of investigating the Huntingdale rape with simplistic dna methods. When retested with familial dna up came a hit. Sorry if that was unclear. DNA testing back then was like bkack and white tv compared to full colour LED screens.

yes I totally understand your point re advances in DNA science. But even back in early days, didn't DNA produce 'gender', 'blood type' and 'basic DNA profile' information that still could've been compared to other 'nearby POI samples'

So even with simplistic testing methods - DNA matches could be confirmed or denied from the actual DNA information that was available at the time (eg 1988)

And on later compared on NCIDD database from 2001 (from the awesome link you provided earlier).

 

[BReVeTTe]

As far as I understand the Flect vision are extra frames left out of the Crime Investigation doco. They can be estimated in sequence using the times stamps although timestamps have been obviously manipulated and changed in some of the frames. This one could even be 08.08... It's too hard to tell.

But the image of a girl!! That is weird. Possibly could have been manipulated from another frame while they were doctoring another image otherwise, I'm at a loss.

There are many reasons why I have doubt that the story the cops told and the images they released were correct, but it doesn't seem realistic that someone would be on the roof with that body position. What do others think?

thanks for your response, innerchild,
I wondered if my mind was playing tricks!
the single image I uploaded is unedited ie. taken straight from meticulously's CCTVversion.
BUT I can not UNSEE the detail I'v described in this image - no matter how many times I look at it -
and that detail is MUCH clearer if you increase the exposure (I have experimented)
as for body position, "she" doesn't seem to be quite "on" the roof, but appears to be either getting up on / or getting down from it.
It makes me wonder whether there was some sort of sneaky After Hours private party/rave/shindig happening on the upper level.
I am really hoping we can sleuth this image further.
[emoji887]

 

[TheSecondLaw]

IIRC JR was on the western side of Woolcoot Road.
Its pretty hard to determine which direction the alleged CSK travelled on Woolcoot Rd - either heading north or heading south, because the alleged CSK could have been:
A) travelling south, then 'chucked a u-ee' (did a u-turn) at intersection of Millar and Woolcoot while also checking for oncoming traffic travelling towards him on Millar Rd, then headed north back up Woolcoot, pulling over to LHS of road to dispose of body.
B) at some location further south than Wellard, and was using MIllar-Woolcoot route home, and just pulled over to LHS of road while heading north on Woolcoot to dispose of body.
C) heading south on Woolcoot and pulled over to RHS of road, parking 'illegally' facing oncoming traffic, and then disposed of body.

Hi Spooks,

Agreed on all the above possibilities. Regarding SS , I am of the belief that whilst it's highly likely that her location is / would have been at a similar closeness to a road as was CG and JR, the fact she was never discovered could suggest otherwise:

- More effort was taken by the alleged to bury / conceal
- A more isolated location was chosen by the alleged, rarely frequented by bushwalkers / landowners / council rangers
- Located further from a road to an even more secluded location (Which leads to further considerations / theories)

On the second point, it is perfectly likely that in the 22 years that have passed, people may have unwittingly walked by very close to / practically upon the location and were none the wiser, especially if many years had already passed and if greater efforts at concealing / burial were made to begin with.

All theories / imo.