Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #5

[lavagirl]

can you please just watch this? no one said you were a troll.

[video=youtube;hbbg-FVij4c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbbg-FVij4c[/video]

it's the one you are talking about.

if the only other time you saw footage was in the CIA doco, then the above one is what you are looking for.

please don't take offense, but there is no way you could have seen this other supposed version early last year otherwise we all would have seen it as well.

I watched it and no, it's not the version I saw. This version Ive seen a few times trying to verify if the man going around in circles was Adrian Bayley. I'd read someone had posted that it looked like him.

I honestly wish I could explain how I stumbled across it and no, I'm not mistaken.

The other two thoughts I had (at the time when I saw it) about the girl with the flowy skirt. It was hippy-like and I thought it wasn't really appropriate attire for claremont let alone a nightclub (remember I was a former voguette)

Secondly she reminded me of Eddie Vedders then girlfriend back in the 90s. I was a huge Pearl Jam fan, adored Eddie Vedder and had taped footage from I think it was the MTV awards. As an obsessed teen, I'd watched this many times. Anyway, I remember seeing his girlfriend with him then and she was all hippy like, wearing this flowy skirt which was like the one this girl in the group was wearing.

I just looked back at my older posts and I didn't write about it but I did respond to shadowboxer about the footage which appeared to be the same one I had seen.
Is shadowboxer also Brentyboy - I'm sure I'd read the latter referring to this version of the footage on another forum/blog possibly for a local Perth newspaper website.

 

[lavagirl]

The footage of Jane's last night at the Conti was shown to her family at the time of her disappearance. They saw more than we did:

A couple of days after she went missing the police had us watch a video of the Conti, (a
hotel in Claremont) of the people outside and inside. I could see Jane, going up the stairs,
down stairs, mingling with the crowd. The camera only went around every 3 minutes.
Then after the pub closed, or near closing, Jane was out the front and she looked like she
was looking for someone, she was looking at her watch - looking around - that lasted for a
few minutes and then the camera turned around and she wasn’t there, so she’s obviously
walked somewhere or been picked up by someone. (Long pause).

(From "Honoring Survival, page 64)

If this footage included Jane entering a car, surely the police would have shown the family that picture, and asked if the car looked familiar? On the CIA doc, it was claimed that the police had spoken to every single person pictured outside the Conti, except for MM. I find it hard to fathom that when they identified the people who supposedly stepped out to get into a taxi, but then stepped back when JR went forward, would not have said "Oh yeah, she was ahead of us waiting for a cab- she got in and we got the next one". Even if alcohol made their memories a bit hazy, surely the video would have helped?

I can see how a rogue taxi driver could have been operating in the area. I can see the rogue taxi driver cruising the streets, looking for vulnerable women who might not realise until inside the vehicle that she was not in a taxi. Where I run into a problem is that a rogue taxi would go up to the door of a pub, right in front of a bouncer (usually a young, sober man), and pick up someone he was planning to murder. If she did indeed get into a rogue taxi, it would make more sense for her to have walked away from the pub, and been picked up with a little less scrutiny.

My own opinion, of course.

Yes, I thought this too - surely the group would remember missing out /giving up the ride for Jane to then take.

Though I couldn't see it was a taxi for sure, I assumed it was due to colour and style (headlight shape looked like it might have been falcon)

 

[crabstick]

Cutler went missing Winter Solstice

Simon Rochford carried out a 'motiveless' crime

Andrew Mallard - (born 1963) is a British-born Western Australian. 34yo at time of murders.

Murderer No More: Andrew Mallard and the Epic Fight That Proved His ...
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=N3tS-RfEBHcC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=david+caporn+police&source=bl&ots=_P1Noeup-v&sig=3L9PkGHWfPHV_BTSDkR_kz4x58I&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjo_rzj_LMAhWhJ6YKHTdjA9s4FBDoAQgrMAM#v=onepage&q=david%20caporn%20police&f=false

"But I do martial arts and it stems from meditation and concentration with my kung fu ... as well as discipline and mind power, plus I am also an artist and I work well with intricate designs. I do celtic art so I have to memorise diagrams and intricate designs to do that."

So we have Mallard who has been fitted up for a crime by corrupt police in 1995 and was in jail at time of CSK murders. He admits he does martial arts, is into celtic art and hangs out with a crew that is into Wicca. Obviously Mallard's associates would be angry if they knew he was innocent. Does anyone think he may have had a friend who was also the same age and from a wealthy UK family and also a MAP?

From same book:
Calling on his well-honed skills of deceiving people to improve his self-image, Andrew introduced himself as an english backpacker called Andre who was looking for friendly digs near Fremantle until funds came through from the old country. His tale worked on a friend of Michelle's at Gino's cafe, a popular hangout on Fremantle's cappucino strip.

Interview with author of said book:
He also stole a chalice from the convent down the road, 'cause he wanted to impress the girl he was staying with because he wanted to pretend he was a wizard who did wicca. He was acting quite erratically and ended up in Graylands Psychiatric Hospital.

SO

connection to a Michelle at Gino's cafe, similar to Droc's story. how many Michelle's were hanging out at Gino's regularly? sounds like the same crew of dope smokers to me. The book makes mention of Michelle being in possession of a bong at her house.

we also have synchronicity with Wicca, and girl who told Dr Dunn that CG would be murdered in ritual killing near Eglinton.

"Neil Fearis receives a visit from Perth GP Dr Andrew Dunn. He has information to pass on, he says, that has been given to him by a female patient whom he does not name. He has gone to the police with the information, he tells Fearis, but they have not taken him seriously. This patient has told him that Ciara is being held captive in a house where black magic rituals will take place to appease the gods at the autumnal equinox. Come the Easter long weekend, she will be offered up as a human sacrifice, like the sacrificial lamb. Fearis, too, passes the information to the Macro taskforce. 'We were all so desperate to get Ciara back,' he recalls. 'But they didn't take the information at all seriously, so unbeknown to Denis Glennon, whom we knew did not need this extra stress, we hired private detective Mick Buckley to keep watch on the house in the hills for three days.'

After leaving the police force, Buckley became a private investigator in 1983. 'I got a phone call around 6 pm on Easter Thursday,' he recalls, 'asking me to start surveillance surveillance on this female patient. The information was that Ciara Glennon's murder would take place at The Spot in Yanchep. "


Bart is 100% confident a knife was used on CG and JR. Knife is known as a tool for Wiccan ritual killings
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_tools_in_Wicca

This could also be why we have so many mentals coming on here playing cryptic clues about Iona, victims locations forming a cross, celtic symbols, old english meanings of the girls names etc.

Whether Droc's story was true or not -

Does anyone find it weird this Gino's cafe connection and a Michelle have turned up in both of these cases? The timeline of hanging out there matches up. Is it the same one?

Book makes mention that Michelle wears hippie dresses and is into Wicca -
"With dark hair and a slim figure, she dressed in the hippie garb favoured by Fremantle's alternative set. She smoked dope, played music and dabbled in Wicca".

At around 12:03:10 two gentleman and a woman in a long flowing skirt walk out of the club. - JR CCTV vid


Are these people all in the same crew? Was Simon Rochford known to them? He was also from UK although in jail at time of murders.

 

[Elwood_1]

I can see how a rogue taxi driver could have been operating in the area. I can see the rogue taxi driver cruising the streets, looking for vulnerable women who might not realise until inside the vehicle that she was not in a taxi. Where I run into a problem is that a rogue taxi would go up to the door of a pub, right in front of a bouncer (usually a young, sober man), and pick up someone he was planning to murder. If she did indeed get into a rogue taxi, it would make more sense for her to have walked away from the pub, and been picked up with a little less scrutiny.

My own opinion, of course.

'Hi, remember me? Mystery Man, we met before. You still need a lift? I'll go grab my car, and meet you at the corner in 5 minutes'

Simples.

 

[Elwood_1]

I thought I would list a few of the characteristics the profiler, Kris Illingsworth, predicted of the CSK in the article, On the trail of a serial killer:

The killer had the social and verbal skills to ingratiate himself with the girls. He probably knew or had at least met Jane and Sarah.

He was likely a white, European male, late twenties to mid thirties. He was familiar with Claremont, but he didn't live there. He likely lived in between the disposal sites.

He has not been trained in the military. He probably drove a newer model vehicle.

He was and is viewed as trustworthy, charismatic, and charming. He might currently work in marketing or sales, and probably at management level, and with a good work record. He is probably in a stable relationship and does not have a domestic or street violence record.

Interesting. If true, this further eliminates several previous suspects--LW, SR, and PW.

Sutton, a while ago you posted quite a lengthy profile. I just looked back through your earlier posts but was unable to find it. Would you be so kind as to post it again if you are able. Thank you.

 

[Bartholemeus]

I thought I would list a few of the characteristics the profiler, Kris Illingsworth, predicted of the CSK in the article, On the trail of a serial killer:

The killer had the social and verbal skills to ingratiate himself with the girls. He probably knew or had at least met Jane and Sarah.

He was likely a white, European male, late twenties to mid thirties. He was familiar with Claremont, but he didn't live there. He likely lived in between the disposal sites.

He has not been trained in the military. He probably drove a newer model vehicle.

He was and is viewed as trustworthy, charismatic, and charming. He might currently work in marketing or sales, and probably at management level, and with a good work record. He is probably in a stable relationship and does not have a domestic or street violence record.

Interesting. If true, this further eliminates several previous suspects--LW, SR, and PW.

I think it's a good profile and what I always imagined the CSK to be. The bit "He likely lived in between the disposal sites" suggests either "he lives somewhere in Perth" or "he lives somewhere roughly equidistant between the two sites" which sort of means close to Claremont but not in Claremont". I've always believed our guy is local (Subiaco, Shenton Park, Nedlands, Dalkeith, Claremont, Swanbourne, Cottesloe, Peppermint Grove, Mosman Park). Unsure he has necessarily met the girls though but this profile matches Judo.

 

[papertrail]

A little off the current topic, but can anyone tell me what year LW picked up the female undercover officer?

4 or 5th April 1997 which is a couple of days after the discovery of CG

 

[papertrail]

The footage of Jane's last night at the Conti was shown to her family at the time of her disappearance. They saw more than we did: A couple of days after she went missing the police had us watch a video of the Conti, (a hotel in Claremont) of the people outside and inside. I could see Jane, going up the stairs, down stairs, mingling with the crowd. The camera only went around every 3 minutes. Then after the pub closed, or near closing, Jane was out the front and she looked like she was looking for someone, she was looking at her watch - looking around - that lasted for a few minutes and then the camera turned around and she wasn’t there, so she’s obviously walked somewhere or been picked up by someone. (Long pause). (From "Honoring Survival, page 64) If this footage included Jane entering a car, surely the police would have shown the family that picture, and asked if the car looked familiar? On the CIA doc, it was claimed that the police had spoken to every single person pictured outside the Conti, except for MM. I find it hard to fathom that when they identified the people who supposedly stepped out to get into a taxi, but then stepped back when JR went forward, would not have said "Oh yeah, she was ahead of us waiting for a cab- she got in and we got the next one". Even if alcohol made their memories a bit hazy, surely the video would have helped? I can see how a rogue taxi driver could have been operating in the area. I can see the rogue taxi driver cruising the streets, looking for vulnerable women who might not realise until inside the vehicle that she was not in a taxi. Where I run into a problem is that a rogue taxi would go up to the door of a pub, right in front of a bouncer (usually a young, sober man), and pick up someone he was planning to murder. If she did indeed get into a rogue taxi, it would make more sense for her to have walked away from the pub, and been picked up with a little less scrutiny. My own opinion, of course.

Re the Rimmer family being shown the video. Yet Adam, Jane's brother, said in the Sunday Night show late last year that he was never shown the video EVER !

 

[papertrail]

Where is the image, someone claims Jane appears to hail a cab?

I never said that Jane hailed a cab - I said it was the guy from inside the Conti that hailed the cab as can be seen in the screen shot

 

[papertrail]

My guess is that they found a substance at the scene such as gbl wheel cleaner... Generally, the only people who would use such a product are obsessive car cleaners. Kind of like if you found a top of the range computer graphics card, you could deduce that the owner is an avid computer gamer.

I don't believe that at all. I think it was an (easy) assumption to believe the perpetrator would wash his vehicle due to the fact that both disposal sites were linked to unsealed roads - very dusty and in June for Jane, possibly muddy. possibly due to victim injuries police and profilers would consider the perpetrator would have cleaned the inside of their vehicle.

 

[papertrail]

there are only two versions

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...claremont-footage-released-20080828-4569.html
Police bungle as wrong Claremont footage released

the CIA doco and the other one on youtube that goes for 1min 09 seconds.

there is no third version that was released.

The FLECT copy is an abridged version of the full copy. The HayleyJane youtube copy is the enhanced copy. The copy that was released to the public via pay tv in August 2008 was the unenhanced copy.

 

[papertrail]

Someone on a FB news story claimed to have seen it (but I don't have the link). She was not the Brentyboy poster you quoted. Lefty also saw it.

I believe a longer version was accidentally released and then replaced within a day.

Bret Christian describes yet another version of the video in this Post article, Murder suspect drove Holden wagon.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9ntidqi1gayimy0/AABtQA-5pkhnDxq6J7YuW5Cua?dl=0

I beg to differ with you Sutton. You did say that Bret Christian was the author of the article which stated MM walked south.

 

[papertrail]

What facts? I've stated several times this is my belief. No one can know for sure. Each reader can reach their own conclusion.

You originally advised me to contact BC, who is not even the author, to see what the article referred to. I said I am not trying to convince anyone else my interpretation is correct, and have no reason to contact BC. Please back off.

You initially wrote that Bret was the author see my other message today. So if you believe that Bret is the author and that he is indicating that MM walked further south after his interaction with Jane, why not contact Bret to 1. see if there is another copy of the cctv footage which shows different footage and 2. to point out that the article had incorrect information in it.

 

[papertrail]

if you check the cctv time stamp on the FLECT copy vs the time stamp on the CIA doc (hayleyjane copy) you will see the Flect abridged version cuts off and doesn't show anything after this group and the taxi. Jane is definitely still there after the taxi leaves.

 

[Sutton]

You initially wrote that Bret was the author see my other message today. So if you believe that Bret is the author and that he is indicating that MM walked further south after his interaction with Jane, why not contact Bret to 1. see if there is another copy of the cctv footage which shows different footage and 2. to point out that the article had incorrect information in it.

I corrected that a few posts down, acknowledging the correct author and apologizing for my mistake.

Please stop trying to get me to contact Bret Christian. I have no desire to contact him, and do not believe there was a mistake.

 

[crabstick]

Sorry, Although I havent checked the previous paperback edition I really don't know where I pulled GBL from. I must have interpreted it from this maybe,

Debi, Marshall, 2007. The Devil's Garden: The Claremont Serial Killings. 2nd ed. Australia: Random House.

Crabstick

The Devil's Garden does NOT mention GBL. A link to a book is not a complete source. Please post a page number or location. Thank you.

 

[crabstick]

Both Woolwich and Pippidinny were sealed roads

I think Pippindinny was sealed up past Ciara. The images show so.

At the time Woolwich was sealed up until it became Millar road which then became unsealed. Woolwich has since been amended to continue to the adjacent Millar rd

You can here see remnants in the dataset, and if you go back to the UBD of the time, you will see Millar rd on the hockey stick up to the start of Woolwich road which is coincidently where Jane was left. Jane was roughly left where the sealed and unsealed section was, which lead me to believe this may have been an old cadastra boundary of two districts.
Where one council had not yet sealed, and another council north side had sealed the road. A bureaucratic anomaly so to speak.

Seeing as a roads guy was a POI, taxi drivers were POI, and some with a Key to the city was POI, I felt it was relevant to point this out.

I don't believe that at all. I think it was an (easy) assumption to believe the perpetrator would wash his vehicle due to the fact that both disposal sites were linked to unsealed roads - very dusty and in June for Jane, possibly muddy. possibly due to victim injuries police and profilers would consider the perpetrator would have cleaned the inside of their vehicle.

 

[crabstick]

The person or persons may not have driven off the sealed road end, because in the event of forensic analysis, the dirt may have found to be indigenous of the area if pulled over by police.

My focus still sits with that dirty old falcon taxi though the bricklayer pointed out. Whats the chance of a job up that way at 4.30 in the morning? Thats a bloody good job for a tax from the Perth CBD. How many taxis operated in that area? Who runs a taxi at 4,30 am out of Yanchep, which in the day would have only been accessed by Wanneroo road unless someone drove the old 4WD sand tracks to access Pippidinny rd from the other end. This would mean not being seen off Wanneroo road. This may explain the vehicle ending up dirty, unless the vehicle became bogged. Is it quite a steep hill to transverse down to where Ciara was found?

 

[Bartholemeus]

4 or 5th April 1997 which is a couple of days after the discovery of CG

Do you have a source for this because it's in conflict with the notes I have which I took while reading DM's book.

According to my notes, DM's book says;

1. They didn't identify LW as a suspect until September 1997
2. They arrested him in a sting on April 5 1998
3. There was one other occasion where he picked up an undercover. This was obviously at some time in between those two dates.

ps I take notes to keep people like you honest.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Sorry, Although I havent checked the previous paperback edition I really don't know where I pulled GBL from. I must have interpreted it from this maybe,

Debi, Marshall, 2007. The Devil's Garden: The Claremont Serial Killings. 2nd ed. Australia: Random House.

So a profiler opines that the CSK might have washed his car regularly and you interpreted that as GBL being found at the site? That's a fair leap in logic and I would suggest other posters will take this into account when considering your other claims. Just saying.