GUILTY Australia - Kiesha Weippeart, 6, Mount Druitt, NSW, 18 July 2010 - #2

[darnudes]

once again after working for telstra can tell you now that they can not prove exactly where people are here from the phone towers........gather "cell phone pings" is an american terminology is that correct????? can certainly tell what area people are in when a call was made from the phone, but sometimes it can go from say one of two or three towers......but still it does narrow down an area......when i worked there 3 years ago now, the info about what mobile phone tower was used was not recorded from prepaid mobiles........this may have changed now......

Depending on what records the police can get from the Telco's they will be able to ascertain the general area to within a couple of blocks. They do this by using a triangulation method on the cell phone pings, they don't just rely on one tower. The problem will be if they are unable to now get that info from the Telco's as it has been so long - but I've got my fingers crossed.

Even for pre paid mobiles the sim card is unique, registered and traceable, it just isn't commonly known.

I can't think of the case at the moment but I know that police in Australia have used cell phone pings in their investigations. When I remember I'll post the information here.

 

[butwhatif?]

Thank you for the welcome butwhatif? I have a few opinions that I'd like to put forward here. Firstly the media release two weeks ago that police were close to making an arrest was IMO orchestrated by police. Apparently police will do this and then closely watch their suspect(s) for any movement, i.e. returning to the scene of the crime to cover evidence or remove a body etc. Perpetrators will also get nervous and make phone calls or send text messages to others who may have been involved in the crime. IMO the police did not confiscate the mobile phones earlier because they wanted to see what would show up on them down the track.

To remove items from Kiesha's home the police would've needed a warrant issued by a magistrate. This is not a simple process. The police have to state the reasons why they want the warrant based on the evidence they already have. Similarly the same thing would have happened with the mobile phones. The police once again would have needed to apply for a warrant to seize the phones and have a very good reason for doing so.

K & R would have probably suspected that their home phone and house had been bugged by the police. Their only alternative was to use their mobile phones to send text messages thinking that once the text messages were deleted they could no longer be found on their phone. Wrong! Deleted files can be located on the sms card and the police have this facility. The time and place any calls or text messages were sent would very relevant. Police would obviously have asked K & R what time they went to bed on the night before Kiesha disappeared. Was there any activity on the phones in the early hours of Sunday morning while they were supposedly asleep?

I know it's very frustrating that we've not heard much about the case over the last few weeks but I feel the police are working their behinds off to find out what happened to Kiesha. If we were still hearing through the media "Police are appealing for help in finding Kiesha Abrahams...." I would be more concerned but that's not the case. I think they are playing their cards close to their chest and an arrest is imminent. :Justice:

I hear what you're saying and I understand the procedural aspect, but why would they have probable cause to get a warrant for a vacuum, paperwork and clothing, and not the bed she was allegedly abducted from? That bit just doesn't make sense to me.
I can't imagine a magistrate saying "Yep you can take the vacuum, you can take the paperwork, you can take the clothing, but you can't take the mattress....since there's no probable cause for that item."

 

[darnudes]

I hear what you're saying and I understand the procedural aspect, but why would they have probable cause to get a warrant for a vacuum, paperwork and clothing, and not the bed she was allegedly abducted from? That bit just doesn't make sense to me.
I can't imagine a magistrate saying "Yep you can take the vacuum, you can take the paperwork, you can take the clothing, but you can't take the mattress....since there's no probable cause for that item."

I can't swear to this, as I only saw the footage once, but when the police started removing items from the house for testing, I'm pretty sure I saw a mattress. It wasn't possible to confirm this due to all the objects being all wrapped up but that's what it looked like.

 

[sparklepony]

I can't swear to this, as I only saw the footage once, but when the police started removing items from the house for testing, I'm pretty sure I saw a mattress. It wasn't possible to confirm this due to all the objects being all wrapped up but that's what it looked like.

Yes, I'm pretty sure too. One one of the news reports they were naming the items removed, and said something like, "... and what looks to be a child's mattress".

Homicide detectives were brought in on day 3 of this case, which I believe is around the time these items were removed. IMO they wouldn't have been brought in, or items such as the vacuum cleaner removed, if there wasn't good reason to believe that K had met with foul play inside the unit.

Incidently, I was reading on FB that there is apparently a huge backlog in forensics testing, and results can take months to come through. I wonder if this is why we've heard nothing about the items removed from the unit, or whether it means there is nothing to report?

Edit: I'm not sure how to post a photo here, but this is a link to one of Police removing what looks to be a mattress. I hope it's ok to do it this way: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?p...4226070293&ref=fbx_album&fbid=140323029337746

 

[butwhatif?]

I can't swear to this, as I only saw the footage once, but when the police started removing items from the house for testing, I'm pretty sure I saw a mattress. It wasn't possible to confirm this due to all the objects being all wrapped up but that's what it looked like.

Yes, I'm pretty sure too. One one of the news reports they were naming the items removed, and said something like, "... and what looks to be a child's mattress".

Homicide detectives were brought in on day 3 of this case, which I believe is around the time these items were removed. IMO they wouldn't have been brought in, or items such as the vacuum cleaner removed, if there wasn't good reason to believe that K had met with foul play inside the unit.

Incidently, I was reading on FB that there is apparently a huge backlog in forensics testing, and results can take months to come through. I wonder if this is why we've heard nothing about the items removed from the unit, or whether it means there is nothing to report?

Edit: I'm not sure how to post a photo here, but this is a link to one of Police removing what looks to be a mattress. I hope it's ok to do it this way: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?p...4226070293&ref=fbx_album&fbid=140323029337746

Are you both talking about the second raid of the unit or earlier?
I think it was the 5th/6th August that the media reported the p/work clothes and vac were taken into evidence.
And on the 9th they went in for the second search and seize, when they brought out what was presumed to be a childs mattress.

There's definately a huge backlog, but normally in high profile cases they get priority. Even if it's on the top of the list it could still be a loooong time before everything is back.
But I'm glad the police are taking their time to build a solid case. They must be exhausted and sitting on the edge of their seats awaiting all the results.

 

[sparklepony]

Are you both talking about the second raid of the unit or earlier?
I think it was the 5th/6th August that the media reported the p/work clothes and vac were taken into evidence.
And on the 9th they went in for the second search and seize, when they brought out what was presumed to be a childs mattress.

There's definately a huge backlog, but normally in high profile cases they get priority. Even if it's on the top of the list it could still be a loooong time before everything is back.
But I'm glad the police are taking their time to build a solid case. They must be exhausted and sitting on the edge of their seats awaiting all the results.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up

Yes, one would hope cases like this would receive priority, but from what I hear it can still take a long time. I agree with you though, I'd hate to think that someone could get off, or have their sentence reduced on a technicality, so I'm glad the Police are proceeding slowly and carefully with this. I think they definitely have their eye on the perp, but are just building up enough solid evidence for a successful arrest and sound conviction.

 

[darnudes]

Are you both talking about the second raid of the unit or earlier?
I think it was the 5th/6th August that the media reported the p/work clothes and vac were taken into evidence.
And on the 9th they went in for the second search and seize, when they brought out what was presumed to be a childs mattress.

There's definately a huge backlog, but normally in high profile cases they get priority. Even if it's on the top of the list it could still be a loooong time before everything is back.
But I'm glad the police are taking their time to build a solid case. They must be exhausted and sitting on the edge of their seats awaiting all the results.

I must be thinking of the second raid - thanks for clarifying butwhatif

As for the backlog - correct!

Can't attest to NSW but in QLD at the John Tonge Centre, where all forensic pathology is done among other things, they are hugely underfunded and overworked and even for high priority murder cases they are terribly backed up. I know this personally as I used to pick up blood work from them on occasion and have a friend that works in the admin department as a liaison officer, officiating between the police department and the pathology lab. My friend regales us with stories of wait times for forensics in even the most horrid crimes, that would make your hair curl. He says it's an absolute joke.

Anyone from QLD will be familiar with the Singh murders and may have wondered why it took so long before someone was arrested - a good part of that was due to the length of time it took for the pathology tests to be performed.

So, we could be in for a long wait folks.

 

[butwhatif?]

`I'll never give up on you, Kiesha'

The detective leading the investigation into the disappearance of Mt Druitt girl Kiesha Abrahams has vowed he will never give up on the six-year-old.

Detective Inspector Russell Oxford one of the state’s most experienced homicide investigators told The Mt Druitt-St Mary’s Standard: “This case will remain open until we find out what happened to Kiesha.

“I will never give up on her and neither will the other police who have been working tirelessly to solve this mystery.”

And he said detectives were making “good progress” as they worked to unravel the mystery which has devastated Kiesha’s family and traumatised the wider community.

And he gave this grim message to the person who is hiding the truth: “We will find you. We are determined to find you. And we never give up”.

More at link:
http://mt-druitt-standard.whereilive.com.au/news/story/ill-never-give-up-on-you-kiesha/

Inspector Oxford at Kiesha's wall of hope:

 

[butwhatif?]

Points of interest re: the article with Inspector Oxford.

http://mt-druitt-standard.whereilive.com.au/news/story/ill-never-give-up-on-you-kiesha/

1) He did this interview with the local paper- not a national one. If he believed Kiesha was alive, he would be more likely to do a national tv or newspaper interview/update on case. I believe the messages in there are specifically for locals.....which would include K & R. (wonder if they have retailed an atty, and police can no longer talk to them?)

2) He is still asking for locals to call in any tips.

He urged the Mt Druitt community to continue to provide investigators with information, no matter how apparently minor.

3) With all those quotes, it looks like it was a prepared/carefully planned message to locals who know anything.

4)They are definately viewing the case as a homicide:

“In that time I have investigated hundreds of murders and suspected murders and you never get used to it.

“But it does strike you particularly hard when a child is involved.

“No matter how many cases of this kind you have dealt with, it never gets any better.

5)They are either lulling the perp/s into a false sense of security, or really are stuck with evidence to support their theory:

“I am proud to say the officers working on this case share my determination to make sure the matter is resolved.

“We are doing this for Kiesha and for the people who loved her.

“Someone out there knows what happened to this little girl and we are going to find them and bring them to account.

And he gave this grim message to the person who is hiding the truth: “We will find you. We are determined to find you. And we never give up”.

UBM-

See how this kind of implies that they don't know who it is, and they need to 'find' them? Is he playing with K & R , or is the investigation leading them into a different direction?

"Never give up" imlies (to me) that they are not close to an arrest....but that could be pure strategy.

6) Inspect Oxford says K & R's phones were needed for a timeline. Which puts the focus back on K & R and anyone they had contact with.

7) He does not state anywhere in the article that there are any suspects at this time.....easing off K& R....there is very little mention of them in the article at all. :waitasec:

I feel like the picture of him at the 'shrine' was a deliberate dig at K&R since earlier reports state they they never stopped to look at it.

 

[butwhatif?]

Anyone else think it's strange that the media haven't been chasing down Kristi and Rob since their re-location?
Wonder if the police adviced media to stay away, or K&R threatened legal action for harrassment, or media have just lost interest?

I can't shake the feeling that the police have reason to believe that this case is bigger than one missing, likely murdered child.

 

[butterfly1978]

I just read both threads. Very intresting case and I will be keeping up with it but for now got to go nigh-night

 

[revampz]

I think the fact that he is a leading homicide detective says it all.........

they dont think she is alive

 

[watchful_eye]

I also feel like "Never give up on you" means that they plan to be working on this case for a LONG time. Sigh.

G-d willing they will wrap it up soon though, and find justice for this poor little girl. How unfair.

 

[butwhatif?]

I think the fact that he is a leading homicide detective says it all.........

they dont think she is alive

True...but the good news is that Inspector Oxford has a great track record for closing cases....even cold ones. So I have no doubt that he will find the perp/s responsible for Kiesha's disappearance, and will make sure that there will be justice for Kiesha...no matter how long it takes.


OT: Another lil boy (toddler) has been found wandering the streets of Bankstown.

Police say a woman believed to be the mother of a toddler found on a street in western Sydney is on her way to Bankstown police station.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1363826/Toddler-found-on-Sydney-street
The boy was found at 4am thismorning. The update about the mum came in at 9:48. Nearly 6 hours of the parents not knowing their toddler was missing?
:banghead:
How many of these cases have we seen in the last few months? Will parents ever learn? :banghead:

 

[butwhatif?]

once again after working for telstra can tell you now that they can not prove exactly where people are here from the phone towers........gather "cell phone pings" is an american terminology is that correct????? can certainly tell what area people are in when a call was made from the phone, but sometimes it can go from say one of two or three towers......but still it does narrow down an area......when i worked there 3 years ago now, the info about what mobile phone tower was used was not recorded from prepaid mobiles........this may have changed now......

Firstly, my sympathies that you worked at telstra- they are horrible to their employees.

But just wondering if you know if the pings (or tower location) can still be established with pre-paid phones.
TIA

 

[butwhatif?]

Where has everyone gone?

 

[butwhatif?]

Anyone know how many members of strike force Jarocin there are?

When I was reading back over articles from the beginning about the first lot of searches for Kiesha I was pretty shocked to see that there were only 35 police officers in the search. (and around the same from SES)

That leads me to believe they don't have a whole lot of manpower, despite them have the best intentions and an unwavering committment to solving this case.

It's two months now since Kiesha was reported missing, and to the public it looks like there has been little to no progress.

I keep thinking the police have so much more info than we know about, but then I wonder if they really do.

They are back to asking for tips from locals. They have only recently seized the phones from Kristi and Rob. B & L are still with Kriti and Rob. There has been no new info about any more police interviews. And Kiesha is still out there somewhere.

I just hope that the bungle with the tip-line in the beginning didn't make them miss any key info.

Am keeping everything crossed that the phones they seized give them a good indication of where Kiesha may be and searches will resume soon.

 

[butterfly1978]

I agree where did everyone go? The media is falling off the story the folks here at WS are falling off this story, come on where is the outrage a baby is missing still!

 

[butwhatif?]

4th August

Ms Abrahams had told police she put her daughter to bed at 9.30pm and noticed her missing at 10am on Sunday, though she had told a friend she noticed her daughter gone about 9am. The Herald understand Ms Abrahams was unable to be interviewed by investigators on Sunday morning.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/welfare-ag...803-115g3.html


I think if true, this is very suspect. Why would Kristi tell her friend that she noticed Kiesha missing at 9am and tell the police it was later?

Again, if true, this gives me the impression that the Sat night/Sun morning really was when Kiesha went missing, even though she hadn't been seen by anyone for around a week.

If we are to trust this article, then what would be a valid reason for kristi not to submit to an interview with investigators the day of her daughters disappearance? Afterall, we know she had plenty of babysitters on hand.


She had to have spoken to them to tell them the time that she noticed kiesha was missing, so to me this implies that she wouldn't go with them to the station for a formal interview and statement.

Could it be because whatever happened really did happen on that night/morning and they needed time to get their stories straight?

We have Rob saying he and others were out searching for kiesha when Kristi phoned the police, which was aprox 10am. But we don't know how long he was out there 'searching', or if he was there when the police arrived at the unit.

At a minimum ,and in theory this would have given Rob and whoever else he was with ,an hour to dispose of the body or evidence. And given that kristi was healing from a c-section, it's very doubtful that she could have carried the dead weight of a 6 year old.

Which would mean that we should look at areas that males are more likely to dump bodies. (ie: further in to bushland, rather than on the border)

But OTOH, and playing devils advocate, Rob could have just been out disposing of anything illegal that was in the home, knowing that the police were on their way and would search the home.(drugs, drug paraphernalia, weapons,stolen goods etc)

If only we could hear that 000 call!!

 

[butwhatif?]

Okay...I give up on our stupid media. Way too many inconsistancies. :banghead:

~August 2nd~

She said she noticed that the six-year-old was missing from her bed about 9:00am on Sunday and that the front door of the unit was unlocked.

^bbm

It also says that there were 40 police searching and over 100 SES volunteers vs the article that stated there were far less people searching.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/08/02/2970870.htm?section=justin

I definately put more stock into reporting from the ABC than any other media outlets.