they'll get you
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Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 Mar 2020 #6 *charges*
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srper2
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Hmm, maybe I misinterpreted "disappeared" as probably dead, then as dead after the grim outcome for RH and CC. But I certainly hope that her whereabouts is investigated now....
Thanks heaps, Motomike, for all the information you have provided and being so patient with all the queries. Losing a mate in such circumstances is sad and unsettling. I hope you and in deed, all Mr Hill's and Ms Clay's family and friends are gaining some measure of comfort from recent developments.
Or, the killer may have undressed them and discarded the cloths. That also is consistent with DI Stamper's request. I suspect the police know a lot more about what went on at the fatal location than they are saying.
Walk A Mile
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I wonder if those close to him ever suspected anything, and if so, when?
He must have been absolutely dropping from exhaustion after that night's activities. Did he go straight home and sleep? Did he take himself off somewhere else, and arrive home at something closer to the usual expected time?
He must have been absolutely dropping from exhaustion after that night's activities. Did he go straight home and sleep? Did he take himself off somewhere else, and arrive home at something closer to the usual expected time?
Mr Hill's and Ms Clay's DNA or even blood may have found its way into the accused's vehicle, or his clothes. DNA transfer is remarkably easy.
Also, blood may have seeped out of the trailer on to the grass where the "30 point" turn was made - the Myrtleford gate.
Here are two stories I recommend, revealing how police linked Bradley Murdoch to the murder of Peter Falconio:
Solving the crime that changed my life: the murder of British backpacker Peter Falconio | Johanna Bell
Falconio's blood at scene, court hears
For a jury to convict of murder, the Crown needs to provide neither body nor motive.
In Victoria, a person can be convicted of murder when the death occurred was an unintentional killing in the course or furtherance of a crime of violence. See: CRIMES ACT 1958 - SECT 3A Unintentional killing in the course or furtherance of a crime of violence. In Victoria, murder is a common law offence which came to Victoria in its original form from English law. The Crown must establish specific elements, beyond a reasonable doubt. See: https://content.victorialawfoundation.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Murder.pdf
The Police have laid charges of murder. They must feel confident that a properly instructed jury, having regard to all the evidence offered, are likely to record a conviction. We should also remember that to prove each element there need be no single piece of evidence, but a collection of evidence that, when taken together, establish the elements of the offence beyond a reasonable doubt.
I would also add that, as per an earlier post, some of the Grant Historical Area, including where the bone fragments were found, is actually within mobile coverage. To be placed in the vicinity of a crime and then in the vicinity of the place where the bone fragments were found, would require some explaining. Additionally, there may be other GPS data or even fitbit and similar data that police have recovered.
My friend sent through a precis of the Herald Sun article:
P1:
The bodies of High Country campers Russell Hill and Carol Clay were burned after they were killed.
In a grisly twist in the Wonnangatta Valley double murder case, the Saturday Herald Sun can reveal the victims were incinerated in bushland near Arbuckle Junction, in a remote area of East Gippsland.
The blaze, lit within metres of where the two were found, may have been an attempt to destroy their remains.
P5:
The bodies of High Country campers Russell Hill and Carol Clay were burned after they were killed.
In a grisly twist in the Wonnangatta Valley double murder, the Herald Sun can reveal the victims were incinerated in a fire lit in bush near Arbuckle Junction, in a remote area of East Gippsland.
It is believed the campers were burned within metres of where they were found buried near the Union Spur Track.
The missing persons squad used the same arson chemists who examined the initial burnt-out campsite at Wonnangatta in March last year during a painstaking inspection of the Arbuckle Junction scene last week.
Police have seized guns from Mr Lynn, a licensed firearms owner, since he was arrested. They will be examined as part of the complex inquiry.
The HS believes Mr Lynn was flying Jetstar planes for a brief period after being identified as one of the figures of interest to investigators.
However, he was grounded for most of that period because flights were grounded because of pandemic restrictions.
Mr Lynn also had significant health issues that had ruled him out of taking the controls of a plane for some time.
Mr Lynn's social media page claimed a bee sting resulted in him being admitted to hospital.
Police are still looking for a trailer allegedly used to transport the missing campers from Wonnangatta to the burial site.
Detectives believe it was sold on Gumtree between March and July last year. Mr Hill’s drone has not been found.
[ENDS]
There are multiple problems with this article.
1. AFAIK, the police have not claimed the trailer was used to transport Mr Hill or Ms Clay's remains. The Police want to find it and examine it. This claim by the HS may reflect a theory the police have, and perhaps the journalist was told this.
2. If Mr Lynn was continuing to fly after being identified as a person of interest, that would suggest sometime in the middle to second part of last year. But the the HS says, Mr Lynn had "significant health issues". How HS knows any of this, it does not say.
And finally...see next post....
Bats
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That's interesting info @Aboreal ,especially regarding the unintentional killing , thanks!
I think I was aware that the Crown need not have a body nor motive, though I am really surprised that unintentionally killing someone can still be regarded as murder.
The HS says:
"The Herald Sun can reveal the victims were incinerated in a fire lit in bush near Arbuckle Junction, in a remote area of East Gippsland.
It is believed the campers were burned within metres of where they were found buried near the Union Spur Track."
As per the maps below, Arbuckle Junction is some 35 km from where the bones were located, and that is on the other side of the Wonnangatta valley, no where near Arbuckle junction. [BTW: the bones are yet to be confirmed as belonging to Mr Hill or Ms Clay. And there is no evidence that is public that they were shot.]
To be sure, Arbuckle junction is on the way, more or less, to the Zeka track. That is route Mr Hill and Ms Clay took into the valley.
The Union spur track is on the other side, in the Grant Historic Area. That is the road media say, the person who disposed of Mr Hill and Ms Clay's remains took out of the valley to the Dargo High Plains Road. [This also coheres with the screen grabs of the maps on the wall from 60 mins story, that I posted earlier.]
I do not know the time it would take to drive from Arbuckle junction to Union Spur track but given various estimations of time on Zeka to the valley floor and from the valley floor to Union, it would be between 4 to 6 hours.
As a piece of my own conjecture, and in agreement with some folks here, it may be that the remains were concealed for a time, that the person who did this (and we do not know who did this; only that someone has been charged) went back, cremated the remains and then deposited them at Union spur. The burial site is about 500 m from the camping area, according to an earlier post I made, with map.
One possibility is that on the fateful day, the remain were taken out of the valley, up the Dargo High Plains road, through Harrietville, Myrtleford, Mansfield, Jamieson and so on and then down the road to Licola, then cutting into Arbuckle. There they were cremated, alter on 21 March and later, perhaps months later, the remains were removed and re-interred at union spur. That is one wild conjecture. But it does render coherent the otherwise incoherent details of the HS report. JMHO.
"The Herald Sun can reveal the victims were incinerated in a fire lit in bush near Arbuckle Junction, in a remote area of East Gippsland.
It is believed the campers were burned within metres of where they were found buried near the Union Spur Track."
As per the maps below, Arbuckle Junction is some 35 km from where the bones were located, and that is on the other side of the Wonnangatta valley, no where near Arbuckle junction. [BTW: the bones are yet to be confirmed as belonging to Mr Hill or Ms Clay. And there is no evidence that is public that they were shot.]
To be sure, Arbuckle junction is on the way, more or less, to the Zeka track. That is route Mr Hill and Ms Clay took into the valley.
The Union spur track is on the other side, in the Grant Historic Area. That is the road media say, the person who disposed of Mr Hill and Ms Clay's remains took out of the valley to the Dargo High Plains Road. [This also coheres with the screen grabs of the maps on the wall from 60 mins story, that I posted earlier.]
I do not know the time it would take to drive from Arbuckle junction to Union Spur track but given various estimations of time on Zeka to the valley floor and from the valley floor to Union, it would be between 4 to 6 hours.
As a piece of my own conjecture, and in agreement with some folks here, it may be that the remains were concealed for a time, that the person who did this (and we do not know who did this; only that someone has been charged) went back, cremated the remains and then deposited them at Union spur. The burial site is about 500 m from the camping area, according to an earlier post I made, with map.
One possibility is that on the fateful day, the remain were taken out of the valley, up the Dargo High Plains road, through Harrietville, Myrtleford, Mansfield, Jamieson and so on and then down the road to Licola, then cutting into Arbuckle. There they were cremated, alter on 21 March and later, perhaps months later, the remains were removed and re-interred at union spur. That is one wild conjecture. But it does render coherent the otherwise incoherent details of the HS report. JMHO.
I only found this out when I read a story about a man who, quite a few years ago, had planted a bomb, and actually killed one or more people. He was charged with and convicted or murder.
JudgeJudi
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I haven't read about Stamper's request. What was it?
Suspect they know a lot more? I'd bet my life they have a huge amount of info we're not privy to. We'll probably learn nothing significant until the trial, but when discovery takes place, they have to disclose all their exculpatory evidence to the defence lawyers.
JudgeJudi
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DI Stamper apparently asked for members of the public to report any clothes found, as per one of the earlier posts.
And yes, police will need start revealing their case to the accused in May of next year for the preliminary committal hearings. That is why the date is so far off: the police have said the brief they are compiling is complex and large....
JudgeJudi
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Video posted on 24 November
Police tracked the accused to a remote location north of Licola where his campsite was located. Footage shows his campsite which was a few hours from where RH and CC vanished. Guns were found in his vehicle. Also included is some old dashcam footage of him travelling with two of his sons – you don’t see anyone’s faces but can hear them all talking.
When he was taken to Sale police station he initially refused to cooperate and answer questions from officers. There were still no charges after 48 hours which is quite unusual.
Police tracked the accused to a remote location north of Licola where his campsite was located. Footage shows his campsite which was a few hours from where RH and CC vanished. Guns were found in his vehicle. Also included is some old dashcam footage of him travelling with two of his sons – you don’t see anyone’s faces but can hear them all talking.
When he was taken to Sale police station he initially refused to cooperate and answer questions from officers. There were still no charges after 48 hours which is quite unusual.
they'll get you
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Alicia__elizabeth
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She passed away in 1999.
I'm not 100% sure of the exact dates but I think around '93/'94 to '99.
It's worth remembering in these cases that intention for murder is always inferred from the evidence - usually circumstantial.
So for starters, the fact that two people are dead (not one), and the concealment of the crime, would tend to meet the standard for intent to kill, even without more.
So for starters, the fact that two people are dead (not one), and the concealment of the crime, would tend to meet the standard for intent to kill, even without more.
they'll get you
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The deaths, the fire of the tent, the removal to a second location with intent to conceal, burning to conceal his DNA, burial.
That’s intentional in my books.
JBowie
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I noticed that and thought maybe it was white, then blue and then beige. It's a 1997 year model and if he's had it from new or near new, then it may well have been resprayed twice since.
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