GUILTY AZ - Edwin Pellecier, 10, & Jesse Ramirez, 7, murdered, Phoenix, 23 Dec 2008

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Ive just read this thread and want to say I am so terribly saddened to hear of Jesse's death. Deepest sympathy to his family. I am sending prayers and love to the other boy.
 
Bewick Lady said:
Ive just read this thread and want to say I am so terribly saddened to hear of Jesse's death. Deepest sympathy to his family. I am sending prayers and love to the other boy.
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Same here. It's just so sad. I can't imagine the pain both families are going through.
 
I am also very sad about this, but I feel more ANGER than sadness. I am furious about this. How DARE this guy do this to innocent little children? I don't care if he has mental issues or not, and I know that is not very politically correct of me. It is also not very politically correct of me to say that I think he deserves the exact same punishment that he inflicted upon these two defenseless babies. He KNEW what he did was wrong - that's why the police said he was so nervous and acting like he had something to hide.

I cannot imagine how their parents feel right now. I do know that if I was one of their parents, I would be seeing fit that there was an eye for an eye. Again, another comment that is not P.C.
 
I read an article saying the 7-year old has died. His 10-year old cousin is still in bad shape.

My prayers for this family and I suspect that the man who beat them will be institutionalized for life now.
 
ShowerSinger said:
Um, sorry future criminologist, but I think txsvicki has a valid point. I also think that it's spelled schizophrenia, and would like to know where you can up with that 99 percent statistic. Off the top of my head, and on television...just the other day...was the case of the schizo man who pushed that beautiful woman onto the subway platform. Also, the case of that schizo woman, who shot up an elementary school. So, it isn't so highly unusual. I guess since it's the holidays, I get a little sensitive,and defensive, and thought your post was a little condescending to txsV.
Peace.
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Of course she does. Our country has a pretty bad habit of turning severely mentally ill people back out onto the streets. We have very little to offer those who suffer from the worst forms of mental illness, but we do have a duty to keep them in a place where they can be helped as much as possible and where they are not a danger to themselves or others.

I agree that most sufferers of schizophrenia are not given to violence and can be helped a lot with proper meds and other therapies. However, it is equally true that lots of random violence associated with mental illness has a diagnosis of schizophrenia attached to the perpetrator.
 
Schizophrenics are more likely to harm themselves, than others. Paranoid schizophrenics, if they harm, are more likely to harm others.

As for anger at the man who did this, mental illness is real. I am deeply saddened that these two boys were harmed, especially to the point where one died. But you have to look at this man's history...and it appears that he could have substituted this 7 and 10 year old for his own children, also 7 and 10 years old, when listening to possible voices in his head. The anger should be directed toward our mental health laws that allowed this man to be discharged from a facility recently, and the fact that we can't FORCE people to take medication to make them well. And of course, toward mental illness itself.

It's indeed, a sad, sad story.
 
txsvicki said:
We need to start building more asylums in this country and placing people like this man in them to live their lives if medication doesn't help or if they continually refuse to take it. It's scary to think that there are probably lots of lunatics like this man out running around in public.
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The asylum "system" broke down back in the 60's due to wide-spread patient abuse that was as nearly as horrendous as some of these crimes. Now the pendulum has swung the other way mainly due to the Insurance companies (and Medicare/Medicaid) not wanting to foot the bill for appropriate care.

It's a joke trying to get help for a person who is mentally ill if they are delusional or hallucinating. My 48 y/o sister has been schizophrenic since she was 19. My mother was severely bipolar. Unless they cause harm to themselves or others you can't keep them in a psych ward. Even then Medicaid or the Insurance company will force the doctors to release them within a week. It's frustrating and even worse, discouraging for the family members trying to just keep life from falling apart. And if they have kids, it's and even worse scenario.

If you want to help go to some of the sites that support mental health like NAMI (National Alliance for the Mentally Ill). Help pass legislation that supports programs like group houses and outpatient clinics by writing your local government officials.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox. It's been one of those holidays, ya know?

:blowkiss:
 
Linkage

In 1967 Charles Manson was released from prison and given a bus ticket to San Francisco. Charles asked NOT to be released. Following is a quote from Manson:



"Oh, no, I can’t go outside there…I knew that I couldn’t adjust to that world, not after all my life had been spent locked up and where my mind was free. I was content to stay in the penitentiary, just to take my walks around the yard in the sunshine and to play my guitar…"

That was a huge mistake that psychologists didn't catch. :furious:
 
according to our local news, the second child has died.

i cannot comprehend this.

im speechless. i want to get into the jail and kill that ($*) # myself.

helpless in a world gone mad,
~lwr~
 
i just thought of this.
if hospitals keep releasing lunatics, and they keep killing innocent people, maybe someone needs to sue a hospital with such a high damages amount, that none of them will ever release a dangerous patient, not for fear of harming people (like they should think..)but to keep from being sued out of business.

im thinking, a 100 billion dollar lawsuit successfully awarded would put a stop to this practice.
it would be too much risk for the bean counters to release anyone who was high risk.

just my two cents.

~lwr~
 
lightwaveryder said:
i just thought of this.
if hospitals keep releasing lunatics, and they keep killing innocent people, maybe someone needs to sue a hospital with such a high damages amount, that none of them will ever release a dangerous patient, not for fear of harming people (like they should think..)but to keep from being sued out of business.

im thinking, a 100 billion dollar lawsuit successfully awarded would put a stop to this practice.
it would be too much risk for the bean counters to release anyone who was high risk.

just my two cents.

~lwr~
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yeah, because that'll really work.

let's just set the rights of the mentally ill back 100 years and keep them locked up. better yet, let's go back to shock treatments and lobotomies. oh, and committing people against their will. better yet, why don't we just save the taxpayers money and execute them right away? you know, like they used to do in Nazi Germany?

it really disgusts me the solutions that some of you have for the mentally ill. Yes, mentally ill people are capable of doing horrible things when they are delusional. but how often do they, really? you only hear about things like this in the media, what, every 4 years or so? show me the "epidemic" of roving schizophrenics hitting kids with baseball bats. you can't lock up all the "lunatics" and throw away the key just because one guy went nuts on two kids, same way that locking up every drug dealer won't stop drug use, and registering every pedophile won't stop child sexual abuse, and gun control laws and "waiting periods" won't stop people from using guns irresponsibly, and awareness of the Holocaust did not stop governments from committing genocide. tragic, awful things happen in the world. not every law is going to prevent them, and it is awfully naive, and actually scary, to think that some of you want to strike a blow against civil rights for the mentally ill and disabled by locking them all up again.

and actually, according to a study done by the Institute of Psychiatry in London in 2003, "Although people with schizophrenia are significantly more likely to be violent than people who are not schizophrenic the actual proportion of violent crime that is committed by people with schizophrenia is less than 10%. This is one of the conclusions of a research study undertaken by the Section of Forensic Medicine at the Institute of Psychiatry." the author further notes that "annually 99.97% of those with schizophrenia will not be convicted of a violent crime."

so actually, maybe 99% was more accurate than I thought. anyway, you can read the article here if you feel like it.

http://www.mentalhealthcare.org.uk/research/expanded/?id=6

call me condescending, I don't really care. I speak from experience, having lived in a mental hospital myself, and having family members with mental illness.
 
future criminologist said:
yeah, because that'll really work.

let's just set the rights of the mentally ill back 100 years and keep them locked up. better yet, let's go back to shock treatments and lobotomies. oh, and committing people against their will. better yet, why don't we just save the taxpayers money and execute them right away? you know, like they used to do in Nazi Germany?

it really disgusts me the solutions that some of you have for the mentally ill. Yes, mentally ill people are capable of doing horrible things when they are delusional. but how often do they, really? you only hear about things like this in the media, what, every 4 years or so? show me the "epidemic" of roving schizophrenics hitting kids with baseball bats. you can't lock up all the "lunatics" and throw away the key just because one guy went nuts on two kids, same way that locking up every drug dealer won't stop drug use, and registering every pedophile won't stop child sexual abuse, and gun control laws and "waiting periods" won't stop people from using guns irresponsibly, and awareness of the Holocaust did not stop governments from committing genocide. tragic, awful things happen in the world. not every law is going to prevent them, and it is awfully naive, and actually scary, to think that some of you want to strike a blow against civil rights for the mentally ill and disabled by locking them all up again.

and actually, according to a study done by the Institute of Psychiatry in London in 2003, "Although people with schizophrenia are significantly more likely to be violent than people who are not schizophrenic the actual proportion of violent crime that is committed by people with schizophrenia is less than 10%. This is one of the conclusions of a research study undertaken by the Section of Forensic Medicine at the Institute of Psychiatry." the author further notes that "annually 99.97% of those with schizophrenia will not be convicted of a violent crime."

so actually, maybe 99% was more accurate than I thought. anyway, you can read the article here if you feel like it.

http://www.mentalhealthcare.org.uk/research/expanded/?id=6

call me condescending, I don't really care. I speak from experience, having lived in a mental hospital myself, and having family members with mental illness.
Click to expand...

Excellent post. I couldn't have put it any better. :thumb:
 
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/12/26/20091226roberts1226.html

State's mental-health system killed boys

"Four months before Edwin and Jesse died, a Maricopa County Superior Court judge ordered that Gallegos submit to psychiatric treatment through Magellan Health Services. But state records dug up after the tragedy showed that a patient believed to be Gallegos was never given a psychiatric assessment by the clinic assigned to treat him, had no documented treatment plan and didn't meet monthly with his case manager and his doctor, as required."


It's one year later and what have we learned? I thought it was important for all of us to read this overview from the Arizona Republic in light of all the abductions, sex offenses, and murders we've recently dealt with. A community based mental health system doesn't work if the mentally ill person doesn't use it and if there's not sufficient oversight nor sanctions.

Note: I found the thread archive for Jesse and Edwin but didn't know how to access it to post. If someone knows how to do that, could you please help.
 
No, locking up every mentally ill person and throwing away the key, is NOT even an option that should be considered. There is a reason that mental health facilities are needed however. The system of the 50's, 60's and 70's needed serious revamping, but now, we often get mental health patients who have tried to commit suicide in acute hospital settings. because there is NO place for them to go. There are not enough beds, facilities or caregivers for the people who ASK for help.

Often a person who knows they are going to try and harm themselves, has no where to turn. This is as dangerous as asylums, which allowed no rights and were FULL of abuse. There needs to be another revamp of the current system. Health care is broken, including mental health care. It needs to be fixed!

I hope and pray this person will be off the streets for the rest of his life. He killed two young boys, mentally ill or not. I am just curious if he tried to get help prior to this.
 
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