AZ - Gabriel Johnson, 8 months, 26 Dec 2009 - last seen in Texas - #4

[Marigold]

Please help me to understand why Tammi would have gone, almost in an instant, from obsessively seeking a baby for herself, to facilitating that baby going to someone else?

I can't get there. I can't see what would have suddenly made her change her mind. And I don't see a change of mind in any of her actions or statements until yesterday or the day before when she said she didn't think adopting Gabriel was going to be possible.

At what point do others see Tammi changed her mind, and what happened that she changed it?

TIA

I think she thinks that Gabriel's father is a monster and so she must protect Gabriel at any costs. I think in her mind, anyone but Logan would be a better parent. I wish I could find the exact interview (I think it's one of the earlier ones on kpho.com) but she really raked Logan over the coals in that.

I am not saying I agree with her at all. Personally, my impression is that I think he loves his son and wants him home right now.

Btw, I do think Gabriel's alive because the Tempe PD keeps saying they received tip(s) of sightings of him.


"We are getting some indications that Gabriel is alive," Carbajal said Thursday. "We can't say specifically just what those are, but we are getting some indications that those are correct."

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local/phoenix/missing_baby_adoptive_parents_010710

 

[panthera]

O thank you I wasn't sure I dont have CNN.
So then maybe not hear anything else 'til Monday unless they find him?

Most probably nothing until Monday, except what we can find online.

 

[Mimiof8]

I don't see her having any maternal instincts toward Gabriel and I doubt if Mexico was in her plans it wouldn't have included Gabriel. I think the whole point of leaving was to make sure Logan never got the baby, even if it meant killing him. And yes, Miami is about as far away as she could get from Arizona and still be in the warm sun (well, except for the last few days!!).

I just wonder if that time share that's owned by JS and TPS in Mexico has been searched...maybe Gabe was handed off to someone in San Antionio and then taken to hide out in the time share...maybe that's the Mexico connection. Just thinking out loud...:waitasec:

 

[Bratlings]

I completely understand what you're saying here! And I wouldn't think at her age that she put a lot of forethought into anything, as shown by her past behavior of trashing the apartment, and so forth. Running away probably sounded like a good idea until she was actually on the road with an 8 m/o unhappy, crying, hungry baby that she really didn't care for to begin with. MOO

That is what I believe happened. She carried that baby stuff up to the room for a reason, he was most likely still with her. Then the plans changed. I just cant convince myself she happened to find 2 decent people willing to take the baby and hide him out for 18 years. Less than decent people would have an even harder time doing it.

 

[time]

OK, I will consider that when you can tell me anything logical that points to some underground network. They are not exactly listed in the phone book, and if this friend in TN had those connections they would have found Tammie her extra baby by now. She never would have needed to bother wwith Elizabeth and then the little complication of Logan.

I posted many times on what my logic is and what supports it. I don't think she really thought Logan was going to be a complication and that might have gotten out of hand - I don't know. The woman appears to be clinically narcissistic to me. I have also said, it does not make sense to me that she was looking for one baby. Have you read all her various posts. Yes, it could be interpreted as she was desperate to find 'one baby', but I said quite a while back I think it could be interpreted differently. As someone else said, she seems to want to be a martyr - I don't know if I exactly think that, but I could agree that's possible. I don't agree with you that there was nothing wrong with the adoption of the 4 year old H just because the mom is not complaining. I also am not trying to interpret the Smith's behavior from a "what's normal" standpoint because I'm not so sure they don't have big problems themselves. I'm pretty sure they are not so moral and ethical. There were women offering to be surrogates online to Tammi months ago - why didn't she go for any of them? It's not that difficult to find a baby to adopt or a surrogate. All of this is not to say that Elizabeth is moral, didn't hurt Gabriel, shouldn't be charged and jailed, or isn't dangerous or should be a parent.

 

[LFlorida]

I really don't dig NG using these nameless and/or faceless voices. Drives me crazy.

 

[Bratlings]

I think she thinks that Gabriel's father is a monster and so she must protect Gabriel at any costs. I think in her mind, anyone but Logan would be a better parent. I wish I could find the exact interview (I think it's one of the earlier ones on kpho.com) but she really raked Logan over the coals in that.

I am not saying I agree with her at all. Personally, my impression is that I think he loves his son and wants him home right now.

Btw, I do think Gabriel's alive because the Tempe PD keeps saying they received tip(s) of sightings of him.


"We are getting some indications that Gabriel is alive," Carbajal said Thursday. "We can't say specifically just what those are, but we are getting some indications that those are correct."

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local/phoenix/missing_baby_adoptive_parents_010710

I hope you are right, but dont forget all the Caylee tips that kept coming in for months and even some now according to the Anthony's.

 

[panthera]

That is what I believe happened. She carried that baby stuff up to the room for a reason, he was most likely still with her. Then the plans changed. I just cant convince myself she happened to find 2 decent people willing to take the baby and hide him out for 18 years. Less than decent people would have an even harder time doing it.

I'm just not seeing her handing him off to anyone unless money was involved.

 

[eitak03]

thank you for all of the welcomes!

To answer the questions (sorry, I skimmed through all of the posts before writing this so I might forget some):

No, I dont know of foster care dates. I didnt know her brother all that well....I met him through Logan, we hung out a few times, and then we kind of went her separate ways. Her brother told me some things but didnt go into great detail about personal life because it was such a bad life.

I dont know who "friended" who on FB. I do know that they were friends, and then a day or 2 later they werent, and then they were again....I dont know who deleted who or who re-added who....my guess would be she added him because she was posting stuff on his wall, and to my knowledge he didnt write back anything to her. I dont know if it was her purpose to make him look bad to his friends or not, but she was doing that. She wrote things like Logan hadnt even bought one pack of diapers for Gabe (which is untrue, they shared an apartment and he worked so he was obviously supporting Gabriel AND Elizabeth).

Logan and I were friends on myspace and sometime after she got pregnant, I was no longer on his friends. I thought that was odd, and then he sent a friend request again, so I figured myspace just messed up or something. Then it was his birthday so I sent him a message and somebody read it (I cant say if it was him or not, I got no reply from it) and then I was deleted from his friends again. My guess is that it was her deleting me (Logan and I dated for a couple years so I am thinking she didnt like the fact that we were still friends). When logans mom died, EJ was with him at the family gathering after the funeral and not too long after getting there, she rolled her eyes and said "ugh this is boring, lets leave" (my mom told me this). My brother talked to Logan on a somewhat regular basis and was telling me (while EJ was pregnant still) that he didnt even know for sure if she was really pregnant....she said she was, then she said she wasnt, then she said she was and wanted money for an abortion and told logan she had an abortion but then obviously didnt. None of this relates directly to where Gabriel is but just more proof that she is not a good person and seems to have been controlling.

 

[panthera]

I hope you are right, but dont forget all the Caylee tips that kept coming in for months and even some now according to the Anthony's.

It would also be much easier to hide and disguise an 8 m/o baby than a toddler who is almost 3 y/o, so I can't really see a lot of "sightings", but rather the tips might be people who know someone who just recently "adopted".

 

[time]

And this illustrates my problem with the so-called Underground Railroad for Abused Children.

I don't know anybody involved with the Underground - not even sure if it really still exists - but the people who would be participating are making these life-determining decisions. They don't sound like they would be the most stable people in the world.

DCF has its problems but I'd sure trust them before I'd trust these alternative justice types.

No offense, jmo.

Someone on the other thread that does know posted on this earlier. I can only tell you what I remember and I hope they will come in and post again or their posts can be moved here ... basically legit networks exist for extreme situations where someone's life child/sig other/spouse is in danger and what they do is something illegal and that, in fact, they typically work with law enforcement (so it may be underground in the sense it's not public). The poster(s) said it would not at all resemble what has gone on in this situation. Basically, there is a parent who wanted Gabriel, Logan, who was not abusive and his background doesn't qualify as some reason to take a child away (or run away). That doesn't mean there aren't other networks, informal or formal, that traffic kids or whatever.

 

[LFlorida]

I'm sorry, but this Tammi woman and the whole story isn't making sense at all to me.

Where were they all flying to/from?

 

[Bratlings]

I posted many times on what my logic is and what supports it. I don't think she really thought Logan was going to be a complication and that might have gotten out of hand - I don't know. The woman appears to be clinically narcissistic to me. I have also said, it does not make sense to me that she was looking for one baby. Have you read all her various posts. Yes, it could be interpreted as she was desperate to find 'one baby', but I said quite a while back I think it could be interpreted differently. As someone else said, she seems to want to be a martyr - I don't know if I exactly think that, but I could agree that's possible. I don't agree with you that there was nothing wrong with the adoption of the 4 year old H just because the mom is not complaining. I also am not trying to interpret the Smith's behavior from a "what's normal" standpoint because I'm not so sure they don't have big problems themselves. I'm pretty sure they are not so moral and ethical. There were women offering to be surrogates online to Tammi months ago - why didn't she go for any of them? It's not that difficult to find a baby to adopt or a surrogate. All of this is not to say that Elizabeth is moral, didn't hurt Gabriel, shouldn't be charged and jailed, or isn't dangerous or should be a parent.

I think you have nailed her personality, but I did not say the adoption of the grandchild was totally normal and ethical. I just have to assume it was since the only one disputing that had his parental rights revoked. It was no trick, he lost them and he admits it was not willingly. So a judge clearly made that decision. That is though a good question about why she never followed up on the surrogacy. I know it is very expensive though, and that does not include all the insemination and medical care. Typically some but very little of that is covered by the adoptive mothers insurance. They were self employed though, so they were probably looking at all of the costs up front. In that case adoption would be cheaper. There is also the question of what the laws are in AZ about surrogacy. Is it legal there? Some states do not legally recognize surrogacy agreements. All I can say is that I have a friend who is infertile, and you just dont know how desperate these people can be. They seek out all possible avenues online, so postings really are just postings. Most are very honest, loving and ethical but some lose sight of that the more the doors close on them.

 

[LFlorida]

Someone on the other thread that does know posted on this earlier. I can only tell you what I remember and I hope they will come in and post again or their posts can be moved here ... basically legit networks exist for extreme situations where someone's life child/sig other/spouse is in danger and what they do is something illegal and that, in fact, they typically work with law enforcement (so it may be underground in the sense it's not public). The poster(s) said it would not at all resemble what has gone on in this situation. Basically, there is a parent who wanted Gabriel, Logan, who was not abusive and his background doesn't qualify as some reason to take a child away (or run away). That doesn't mean there aren't other networks, informal or formal, that traffic kids or whatever.

Well, yeah, like the federal witness protection program, but not to steal a baby from another parent. [I don't think -- but I admit I am not well-versed in this stuff.]

 

[eitak03]

Someone who lives in San Antonio posted yesterday (sorry I don't remember who) that it was all over the news there. I live in Houston and haven't seen it on the news, but I don't watch local news every evening and night so I could have missed it.

Even though this story is gaining national attention, a surprisingly large number of people have not heard of Gabriel. I personally dont watch much news and if I didnt know Logan I might not have heard of it. Granted I am not in Az or Tx, but its been a long time, he could really be anywhere at all.

 

[forthelost]

It is not illegal to suggest that maybe the best way to avoid losing custody is to leave.

Except if you leave and don't show up to the custody hearing, you automatically lose.

Oh, and in a hysterectomy the ovaries aren't always removed, especially in a young woman (wasn't she twenty-six?) so it's possible eggs could be harvested from her. I'm not sure how much of that ties into all this, though.

 

[Bratlings]

I did a quick search and It turns out that surrogacy in AZ is illegal. That probably explains why she did not go that route.

 

[passionflower]

EJ has a rage in her like KC...........(apartment tore up etc. )
She is not 'mother material'
Did she get pi**ed off at everyone and just did HER THING????

Maybe just maybe LE did get some info out of EJ.

 

[forthelost]

And this illustrates my problem with the so-called Underground Railroad for Abused Children.

I don't know anybody involved with the Underground - not even sure if it really still exists - but the people who would be participating are making these life-determining decisions. They don't sound like they would be the most stable people in the world.

DCF has its problems but I'd sure trust them before I'd trust these alternative justice types.

No offense, jmo.

I know a case where one guy who ran an underground organziation was revealed to be a convicted child molester. And I also know a case where a woman who had been convicted of abusing her kids and denied access to them at all grabbed one of them and went into the underground with a phony story.

I'm sure they still exist, and IMHO they do far more harm than good.

 

[Bratlings]

Except if you leave and don't show up to the custody hearing, you automatically lose.

Oh, and in a hysterectomy the ovaries aren't always removed, especially in a young woman (wasn't she twenty-six?) so it's possible eggs could be harvested from her. I'm not sure how much of that ties into all this, though.

You are right, she would lose but I think she already knew she would so she had nothing to lose by skipping it. I think Tammie was at the least 36 and she was 26 when she had the hysterectomy.