AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #4

[SoobsinMI]

But what if they just don;t want to back pedal and admit that they wrongfully charged an 8.5 year old child with the murder of his father and a friend? That would look pretty bad on the PD as well as the courts in St Johns. I hate to think that people would be so corrupt, but things like that DO happen.

I don't know if that is the case in this situation, but I'm just sayin'...

Not to mention the fact that it would mess up their PR notice about how they "successfully investigated a double murder."

 

[Openmind]

#2 undisputed fact, the kid's a liar. Who is he going to tell and be believed?

Just curious, how do we know it is an undisputed fact this child is a liar?

For what it is worth -- kids lie. Adults lie. If he did do this, I would absolutely expect him to lie. If he didn't do this, I would absolutely expect him to lie. What I am having difficulty with is accepting this boy as some cunning criminal. To me, he sounded like a kid trying to say whatever it takes to appease the police. Somewhere in all this there are kernels of truth.

What is tragic, the police have been so inept they have complicated an already tragically horrible situation. How do they admit their mistakes without losing credibility for any other part of their case?

 

[southcitymom]

The gag order in place means his mother cannot discuss the specifics of the crimes themselves. It does not prevent her from proclaiming his innocence, even if she wanted to do so night and day to the media.

In the MS. case that was just aired on TruTV last week where the young boy confessed to murdering his brother in law, he recanted that confession within 4 days, irrc

Thankfully, he was acquitted and his sister sits on death row.

imoo

I watched most of that, but didn't see the end. I am glad to hear he was acquitted in the retrial.

 

[Fairy1]

No, imo it will not only be her words. Imo the time line will line up for all of this to have happened to her husband after she hung up with him when he told her he had to go see what the boy wanted.

I don't think that Tanya, who lived a 170 miles away, even knew about Tim's St. Johns girlfriend until after he was killed.

No, we do not know that they were going to get a divorce. No divorce papers were ever filed and Tim wouldn't be the first man who told their lover they were going to get a divorce and had no intentions of doing so.

imoo

While it can be determined whether Tim was on the phone with her at that specific time, we will NEVER truly know what she heard. SHE may not really even know what she heard. And I can totally understand how someone might mistake the voice of a child for the voice of a woman. Bottom line is, I doubt any court would allow Tanya's testimony with regard to that phone conversation. I'm not saying the little boy didn't commit these murders. I am saying that we have what appears to be a lacking investigation, an impressionable child and several possible motives of other people in these men's lives. Let's face it, this PD is NOT equipped to handle this type of case (not that many would be!), and there are plenty of other possible scenarios in these murders. I just would rather not see a young child be convicted and written off as a danger to society until all the i's are dotted and the t's crossed...

 

[oceanblueeyes]

While it can be determined whether Tim was on the phone with her at that specific time, we will NEVER truly know what she heard. SHE may not really even know what she heard. And I can totally understand how someone might mistake the voice of a child for the voice of a woman. Bottom line is, I doubt any court would allow Tanya's testimony with regard to that phone conversation. I'm not saying the little boy didn't commit these murders. I am saying that we have what appears to be a lacking investigation, an impressionable child and several possible motives of other people in these men's lives. Let's face it, this PD is NOT equipped to handle this type of case (not that many would be!), and there are plenty of other possible scenarios in these murders. I just would rather not see a young child be convicted and written off as a danger to society until all the i's are dotted and the t's crossed...

Imo, it wont even matter, Fairy, but I do believe that Tanya will come across as credible.

The main thing is Tim was on the phone and they will have those cell records of the time he hung up. So they will know at approximately 4:55 pm he was alive, no matter what was said on the phone and by 5:00 pm gunshots were heard.

Then we have to consider all that transpired after 5:00 pm. The boy had to run to the neighbors and tell the older boy what happened, then the other boy had to call his father on his cell phone and tell him what happened and the father has to come home and then he goes to the Romeros to see Tim's body laying there, for himself, before he calls 911 and that is done by 5:03 p.m.

Imo, the time line will be of much more importance than even what Tanya said that Tim said to her. It will just bolster the other evidence imo.

imoo

 

[MeoW333]

They may be just Tonya's words to you. Her words, cell records and everything else is obviously enough to hold him and him alone. No other arrests have been made. That tells me the judge, whose privy to far more than we are feels there's enough to hold him. The fact remains the boy has been charged and remains in custody.

As far as her relationship with Tim, I have no idea of the innerworkings of their marriage and neither do you. I've known plenty of men that cheat on their wives and have had long term relationships outside of their marriage, while still all lovey dovey with their wives. We just do not know.

They don't have her words, they just have her cell records, imo. Um, it was posted in an article awhile back about Tim's affair, actually it was in the court pdf files when the officers where being questioned, so you can find it in there. Don't tell me what i know or don't know. Tim's affair was out in the open, read the pdf files awhile back in one of the threads for Apache County and this case.

 

[MeoW333]

#1 who is the mother gonna tell?

#2 undisputed fact, the kid's a liar. Who is he going to tell and be believed?

Just because you may have had a bad experience with a child with Conduct Disorder, does not mean it applies to this case.
Since you think he's guilty and with that "confession" and all that would make him a person who has trouble lying. Do you honestly think an 8 year old could plan a perfect double murder complete with alibis and ridding of bodies?
Is that what you want me to say?

The mother's visitation with the boy is irrelevant to even bring up they may have talked about it.

 

[MeoW333]

Just curious, how do we know it is an undisputed fact this child is a liar?

For what it is worth -- kids lie. Adults lie. If he did do this, I would absolutely expect him to lie. If he didn't do this, I would absolutely expect him to lie. What I am having difficulty with is accepting this boy as some cunning criminal. To me, he sounded like a kid trying to say whatever it takes to appease the police. Somewhere in all this there are kernels of truth.

What is tragic, the police have been so inept they have complicated an already tragically horrible situation. How do they admit their mistakes without losing credibility for any other part of their case?

Agreed, Openmind, you explained it better than i could.

 

[azmama]

Just curious, how do we know it is an undisputed fact this child is a liar?

For what it is worth -- kids lie. Adults lie. If he did do this, I would absolutely expect him to lie. If he didn't do this, I would absolutely expect him to lie. What I am having difficulty with is accepting this boy as some cunning criminal. To me, he sounded like a kid trying to say whatever it takes to appease the police. Somewhere in all this there are kernels of truth.

What is tragic, the police have been so inept they have complicated an already tragically horrible situation. How do they admit their mistakes without losing credibility for any other part of their case?

This is my sentiment as well, exactly! IF he did do it, he needs to be taught this is wrong, and be APPROPRIATELY punished (not tried as an adult), however, from what I have seen, and know of the area etc, I do not believe he did this, and am afraid of the permanent emotional and mental effect this is having on him.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

I'm going to go back and review the interview LE did with this child. I know there are transcripts out there, but I think there was something missed that was not transcribed. I have some things I must do, but I will listen to it as soon as I can. I think something was missed that the child said during the interview.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Just because you may have had a bad experience with a child with Conduct Disorder, does not mean it applies to this case.
Since you think he's guilty and with that "confession" and all that would make him a person who has trouble lying. Do you honestly think an 8 year old could plan a perfect double murder complete with alibis and ridding of bodies?
Is that what you want me to say?

The mother's visitation with the boy is irrelevant to even bring up they may have talked about it.

This is not what I would call "the perfect murder" ...far from it.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Just curious, how do we know it is an undisputed fact this child is a liar?

For what it is worth -- kids lie. Adults lie. If he did do this, I would absolutely expect him to lie. If he didn't do this, I would absolutely expect him to lie. What I am having difficulty with is accepting this boy as some cunning criminal. To me, he sounded like a kid trying to say whatever it takes to appease the police. Somewhere in all this there are kernels of truth.

What is tragic, the police have been so inept they have complicated an already tragically horrible situation. How do they admit their mistakes without losing credibility for any other part of their case?

I agree.Very well said.

 

[Trino]

I wonder if this ruling will impact the case. The Supreme Court says evidence is valid despite police error:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090114/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_evidence

 

[fran]

Imo, it wont even matter, Fairy, but I do believe that Tanya will come across as credible.

The main thing is Tim was on the phone and they will have those cell records of the time he hung up. So they will know at approximately 4:55 pm he was alive, no matter what was said on the phone and by 5:00 pm gunshots were heard.

Then we have to consider all that transpired after 5:00 pm. The boy had to run to the neighbors and tell the older boy what happened, then the other boy had to call his father on his cell phone and tell him what happened and the father has to come home and then he goes to the Romeros to see Tim's body laying there, for himself, before he calls 911 and that is done by 5:03 p.m.

Imo, the time line will be of much more importance than even what Tanya said that Tim said to her. It will just bolster the other evidence imo.

imoo

I personally don't have the same confidence in the reliability of Tanya's statement and I don't believe LE or a judge will either. After watching case after case unfold here on the pages of Websleuth's and in the media, I view anything she says as a witness in this case as, tainted.

The first report to LE was, that I saw, "Tim told her the boy was calling him." It wasn't until later, the next day I believe, that she claimed to have heard the child's voice. But, by the time the revelation came out that she'd actually heard the child's voice, she already had a ve$ted interest in WANTING the child to be the shooter.

In Tanya's earliest phone interviews about the crime, she made claims that her husband was the 'only bread winner' of the family. By the time she met with the family of the other victim, she already had it in her sites to sue the game manufacturers. "What video games does he play?" She also stopped in the middle of her interview with LE, when they inquired about Tim's OTHER women. She then lawyered up and refused subsequent requests by LE to talk to her, 'Talk to my lawyer.' She wouldn't even give them Tim's cell phone number.

Grieving wife won't talk to LE but referred them to her lawyer. MAJOR RED FLAG.

Oh, I'm not sure she had anything to do with the actual murders. But, she does plan to profit off them. However, the only way she can profit off her husband's death is IF the child is declared the killer.

The time line means NOTHING. It just proves what time the killings happened. It does NOT prove who the shooter was. Just like the GSR doesn't prove anything except that the child was at the scene of the crime, which he admitted he stumbled onto.

JMHO
fran

PS......points to ponder............from child's interview...........'does anyone come over while you're home alone?' ' No, just grandpa sometimes.' or '....a white car 'like grandpa's.'' Further along in questioning he mentioned another 22 LR in the home, '.......grandpa's, it's the same but bigger and takes the same ammo.'...........NOT EXACT quotes but close. Owner's manual to 22LR, Mossberg, automatic, empty gun case, pictured in evidence photos. Where's the gun? ...fran

PPS....Two guns kept in Tim's truck, only one found by LE. Where's the second gun? Why was the passenger side door open? Did someone stop to retreive a gun from behind the seat? LE found the second gun in the console. Dana said Tim kept his gun behind the seat..........fran

PPPS....I viewed on youtube people shooting the same gun as the alleged murder weapon. Not only is it clumsy even when the shooter has it propped up in front of them trying to load it quickly, it makes barely a pop. This COULD account for someone outside not hearing shots fired inside a closed house. But it ALSO bodes towards the neighbor NOT being able to hear the discharge as well, even WITH the front door open. IMHO, IF the neighbors heard Tim being shot, it was not the Cricket gun (or whatever) they heard discharged. It was MOST LIKELY the Mossberg, that takes the same shells as the boy's gun and is MISSING.fran

PPPPS...............Wonder how Tim's wife was able to make out the child's voice above the DOG BARK?!..............OR, IF she didn't hear the dog barking, she didn't hear the boy either.........fran

 

[fran]

I wonder if this ruling will impact the case. The Supreme Court says evidence is valid despite police error:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090114/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_evidence

If anything, I believe it will have a positive effect on this particular case. Clearly, the failure by LE to Mirandaize the child and advise him he had a right to an attorney, was MISCONDUCT by the officers.

JMHO
fran

.....from the above link................

"Some courts have ruled that as a deterrent to police misconduct, the fruits of a similar search may be excluded from evidence."

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I personally don't have the same confidence in the reliability of Tanya's statement and I don't believe LE or a judge will either. After watching case after case unfold here on the pages of Websleuth's and in the media, I view anything she says as a witness in this case as, tainted.

The first report to LE was, that I saw, "Tim told her the boy was calling him." It wasn't until later, the next day I believe, that she claimed to have heard the child's voice. But, by the time the revelation came out that she'd actually heard the child's voice, she already had a ve$ted interest in WANTING the child to be the shooter.

In Tanya's earliest phone interviews about the crime, she made claims that her husband was the 'only bread winner' of the family. By the time she met with the family of the other victim, she already had it in her sites to sue the game manufacturers. "What video games does he play?" She also stopped in the middle of her interview with LE, when they inquired about Tim's OTHER women. She then lawyered up and refused subsequent requests by LE to talk to her, 'Talk to my lawyer.' She wouldn't even give them Tim's cell phone number.

Grieving wife won't talk to LE but referred them to her lawyer. MAJOR RED FLAG.

Oh, I'm not sure she had anything to do with the actual murders. But, she does plan to profit off them. However, the only way she can profit off her husband's death is IF the child is declared the killer.

The time line means NOTHING. It just proves what time the killings happened. It does NOT prove who the shooter was. Just like the GSR doesn't prove anything except that the child was at the scene of the crime, which he admitted he stumbled onto.

JMHO
fran

PS......points to ponder............from child's interview...........'does anyone come over while you're home alone?' ' No, just grandpa sometimes.' or '....a white car 'like grandpa's.'' Further along in questioning he mentioned another 22 LR in the home, '.......grandpa's, it's the same but bigger and takes the same ammo.'...........NOT EXACT quotes but close. Owner's manual to 22LR, Mossberg, automatic, empty gun case, pictured in evidence photos. Where's the gun? ...fran

PPS....Two guns kept in Tim's truck, only one found by LE. Where's the second gun? Why was the passenger side door open? Did someone stop to retrieve a gun from behind the seat? LE found the second gun in the console. Dana said Tim kept his gun behind the seat..........fran

PPPS....I viewed on youtube people shooting the same gun as the alleged murder weapon. Not only is it clumsy even when the shooter has it propped up in front of them trying to load it quickly, it makes barely a pop. This COULD account for someone outside not hearing shots fired inside a closed house. But it ALSO bodes towards the neighbor NOT being able to hear the discharge as well, even WITH the front door open. IMHO, IF the neighbors heard Tim being shot, it was not the Cricket gun (or whatever) they heard discharged. It was MOST LIKELY the Mossberg, that takes the same shells as the boy's gun and is MISSING.fran

PPPPS...............Wonder how Tim's wife was able to make out the child's voice above the DOG BARK?!..............OR, IF she didn't hear the dog barking, she didn't hear the boy either.........fran

We don't even know the dog barked. Puppies and even grown dogs are very scared when they hear gunfire. They will usually wet themselves and maybe whimper or try to hide.

Fran, even if you removed Tanya from the picture the cell phone records will show that Romans was alive around 4:55 pm and by 5:00 pm four of the six shots were heard by the neighbors. These neighbors have no attachment to Tanya or Tim. So this case isn't going to rest on Tanya.

IMO what will prove this case among other things,is all the cell phone records that were being used right around the time of the murders. The neighbors said when they looked out they saw no one. That means imo that the shooter had already left the scene. So then LE will have the exact time of when the neighbor boy contacted his father to come. IMO it will be within a minute or two of the neighbors hearing the shots. it will show imo that this boy did not have time to do anything he said he did when he said he went inside the home or was walking up the street and found Tim already on the porch.

So all the blame and suspicion can try to be placed on someone else, like Tanya but to me it is a futile attempt.

Whatever he said to her or not will not be the crux of this case but what cant be denied is he was very much alive when he said it and by 5:00 four of the gunshots were heard and 911 was called three minutes later.

It gives this boy no time to do anything that he said he did after he said he saw them dead and then go to the neighbors and wait for the other boy's father to come and then call 911.

All the time it leaves him is to get out of there once the murders have been accomplished where they are no longer quivering and shaking and hightail it to the friend's house and wait for the other father to come and so the father can then look at the body of Romans before dialing 911 and I believe the records are going to show that.

TRs guns were not used in this case. They were higher caliber. These victims were killed by .22 bullets per the ME.

You cannot compare a youtube video of someone learning how to shoot. It isn't clumsy at all. The boy told the police it is easy to use and it is. He could pick off small rabbits from yards away with it, so he was no novice.

imo

 

[MeoW333]

Since the Romero's were a hunting family, my guess would be that they were raising the boy's dog to be used to gunshots so that the pup could accompany the boy hunting and outdoors. We know the boy liked to go shooting a lot, it's not a stretch that maybe he'd bring the dog with him for company or excercise. It's a boxer, certainly not a Paris Hilton Chihuahua lol

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Since the Romero's were a hunting family, my guess would be that they were raising the boy's dog to be used to gunshots so that the pup could accompany the boy hunting and outdoors. We know the boy liked to go shooting a lot, it's not a stretch that maybe he'd bring the dog with him for company or exercises. It's a boxer, certainly not a Paris Hilton Chihuahua lol

Hi Meo!

I don't know of any hunter that takes a puppy with them with they hunt game. Puppies are unpredictable and playful. It is not logical to take them because if they were to see a rabbit or other game they would scamper off trying to chase it.

People do take dogs with them when they have been trained to not flinch when they hear gunfire but not 4-5 month old puppies who are curious about everything. Now they may have thought once the dog got older and less unruly that she may make a good hunting dog one day. I have never heard of Boxers being hunting dogs though.

imoo

 

[fran]

Sorry OBE, just like me, you are ASSUMING things that haven't been proven. UNTIL it's proven, it isn't there or could be,.........or NOT. Therefore, to proclaim the child guilty is, to say the least, premature. We do NOT know what the 'evidence' shows.

I read the neighbors heard the gunshots ABOUT 5:05. That DOUBLES the time period. LE received the 911 calls(s) (read it was TWO 911 calls at the same time), at 5:09 or maybe 5:11. In addition to that, IIRC, the phone call with Tim ended at 4:52, which again adds additional time.

I would think an automatic 22LR could fire off 10 shots pretty rapidly, as quickly as it takes to pull the trigger. (note, Mossberg 22 auto clip holds 10 rounds) The neighbor said they heard about four shots. There's info that both were shot in the head. This COULD have been the killer making sure the victims did NOT get up, EVER.

I don't believe the neighbors looked out immediately. It took them a moment or two to even think about looking outside. Of course, there again, I'm assuming, from what I've read.

I realize that Tim's guns were NOT used in this crime, but where is the second one? WHY is it missing?

Again, the grandfather's 22 rifle that he kept at the murder scene is missing. Why?

Again you're assuming about the youtube videos. I not ONLY saw children about the age of this child attempting to shoot this gun, I saw adults trying to show the children how it's done and teenagers who thought they were 'all that,' attempting to fire quickly to show their markmanship. SLOW AND CLUMSY this gun was 'propped' and still the shooter's aim was in question. Yet, we're to believe this child was 'Koolhand Luke' shooting a peashooter at not one but TWO moving targets as he shot, reloaded, bolted, shot again, ten times, and was then able to calmly go to a neighbor's to 'lay the scene out' for unsuspecting witnesses of his devious deed.

I don't like accusing ANYONE of this crime. Not the wives, the grandparents, the co-workers, the g/f's psycho b/f, the drug addict cousins. But those are all the POSSIBLE killers of these two victims. UNTIL ALL of these are cleared and UNTIL all 'forensics' is in, INCLUDING 'crime scene reinactment,' that COULD show it possible that a small child could pull off this crime with that flimsy alleged murder weapon, all is fair game, IMHO.

To ignore ALL POSSIBILITIES is NOT only a disservice to this child, but to the victims as well. What a miscarriage of justice it would be IF LE were to settle on this child's bogus alleged confession, all the while allowing the REAL killer to go free.

What a mess St Johns LE has created. Now the question is, will they do the right thing and undo it? Or is it even possible?

JMHO
fran

PS.......BEFORE everyone jumps all over me and says LE must be investigating and have cleared everyone else AND the child is still in jail, so he's guilty........Sorry,.............think............please..........the JUDGE said he's NOT going to rule on ANYTHING (can't recall exact word) until the report comes down from a higher court. EVERYTHING is on hold, INCLUDING this child's life, until the JUDGE decides what to do..........seriously, I PRAY LE REALLY IS continuing their investigation. They owe it to these two victims and their family,........ they OWE it to this child.............fran

 

[Linda7NJ]

Since the Romero's were a hunting family, my guess would be that they were raising the boy's dog to be used to gunshots so that the pup could accompany the boy hunting and outdoors. We know the boy liked to go shooting a lot, it's not a stretch that maybe he'd bring the dog with him for company or exercise. It's a boxer, certainly not a Paris Hilton Chihuahua lol

I have two dobermans. One, is terrified of the sound of lightening, fireworks and the sound of a nail gun ( air compresser) . I am certain he would cower at the sound of gun fire as well. The other is fearless.

The point being, you never know which you're going to end up with. We have no idea if his dog was fearless or afraid of loud noises.