GUILTY AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #6

[trofanji]

The Bulger case is different from this case because the 2 boys acting together probably would not have murdered on their own indepentently, but together they were toxic. I would think there would be a better chance for rehabilitation in that case.

Where is written that CR planed it?

 

[JBean]

Didn't the state and the defense join in asking for leniency for Lionel Tate?
I think he was one of our youngest lifers and even though they cut him a break in a big way,IIRC, he didn't make the most of it.
IMO, it is not just about giving or not giving them a life sentence. It is about coming up with a way to properly rehabilitate these youngsters while there is still time.
I think each youth offender of serious crimes needs to be judged on its own merit in relation to the child. I think there are bad kids that will grown up to be bad adults and the sooner they are off the street the better. But I also think there are messed up kids that actually have a chance and I'd like them to get it.
This is not a one size fits all situation imo.

 

[trofanji]

CR didn't show any bad behavior before, no school record, nothing! if he did it, it was a very bad decision, but it was the first. He didn't show up any bad behavior since it has happened.

 

[southcitymom]

You and I are of like mind regarding CR, trofanji.

 

[jjenny]

CR didn't show any bad behavior before, no school record, nothing! if he did it, it was a very bad decision, but it was the first. He didn't show up any bad behavior since it has happened.

OMG.
He was 8 years old. How much record would you expect an 8 years old to have?

 

[southcitymom]

OMG.
He was 8 years old. How much record would you expect an 8 years old to have?

I don't think trofanji meant only "legal" record....this 8-year-old hadn't been visited by Child Protective Services time and again (and we read about plenty of young kids on this board who have) or been in any trouble in school or in the community.

That's one of the most curious things about this case - from the outside looking in this kid seemed very normal and well-taken care of by his Dad. Obviously, something was going on that was stressing him out but that something has never been terrifically apparent (ie - no signs of sexual or physical abuse, etc....).

ETA - my son had a "school record" for one ISS by the time he was 8....CR didn't even have that!

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Didn't the state and the defense join in asking for leniency for Lionel Tate?
I think he was one of our youngest lifers and even though they cut him a break in a big way,IIRC, he didn't make the most of it.
IMO, it is not just about giving or not giving them a life sentence. It is about coming up with a way to properly rehabilitate these youngsters while there is still time.
I think each youth offender of serious crimes needs to be judged on its own merit in relation to the child. I think there are bad kids that will grown up to be bad adults and the sooner they are off the street the better. But I also think there are messed up kids that actually have a chance and I'd like them to get it.
This is not a one size fits all situation imo.

I completely agree with you, JB.

One size certainly does not fit all. Take Joesph Duncan for instance. By the age of 8 years old he was already raping and sodomizing little boys younger than him. He has admitted to doing this. When he was finally caught when he was a very young teen the court reccomended that he be given rehabilitation/therapy in an in house mental treatment facility instead of putting him in juvenile detention. There the psychiatrists found him incurable and he was sent to detention then when he became of age he was transferred to prison where he served 20 years total. Once he was released he went right back to raping and murdering little boys and girls. Then he murdered a mother, brother and the mother's boyfriend in order to kidnap, torture and rape two more children and finally brutally murdered the little boy. He was just as evil at 8 years old as he was when they finally caught him for the last time and sentenced him to death.

One does not start having these feelings at the time they first do thee horrid crimes. They are what they are and when they act it means that what is inside of them has just come to the surface but imo, it has been stewing and festering long before.

Many juveniles re-offend. I just feel there are some that have mental disorders which make them more dangerous than others. Those who have conduct disorders which can be the hardest to treat successfully.

Now this boy is frightening to me. He comes home from school, puts his book bag under the table, gets his bullets and gun ready and he lays in wait for his father to walk in the door from work and he ends his life, just like that and then has the cunning wherewithal to be able to lure a man to his death under the pretenses he needed his urgent help, then shoots him 6 times, pats his dog on the head and leaves the crime scene. The entire crimes this kid did are some of the most chilling I have ever read or heard about.

I will never believe this kid is anyway close to normal. Normal 8 year olds don't have ice water running through their veins where they could do this and it not even bother them and it was obvious during his one hour interview both deaths meant nothing to him.

So I continue to believe that the gravity of each individual crime needs to be taken into consideration. I certainly would not want this kid running loose without any accountability at all for what he has done if I lived and had children in St. John and I certainly wouldn't if I knew he never received extensive in house treatment either. Imo, there is something seriously wrong with this kid. He may not even be deemed treatable but they have to try for his sake as well as society who will have to deal with him for years to come.

It sends a horrible message that if one is young enough when they premeditate murder and then carries it out then the death of the victims were okay.

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't think trofanji meant only "legal" record....this 8-year-old hadn't been visited by Child Protective Services time and again (and we read about plenty of young kids on this board who have) or been in any trouble in school or in the community.

That's one of the most curious things about this case - from the outside looking in this kid seemed very normal and well-taken care of by his Dad. Obviously, something was going on that was stressing him out but that something has never been terrifically apparent (ie - no signs of sexual or physical abuse, etc....).

ETA - my son had a "school record" for one ISS by the time he was 8....CR didn't even have that!

Hi, South,

You are right no complaints were ever lodged against Vinnie Romero or Tiffany.

IIRC, there were things in the boy's past though. A family member said he bullied his younger cousins. Another family member said he was spoiled and got everything he wanted. And one of his past teachers said that he was very manipulative. I believe the teacher who taught him at the time this happened wouldn't give him the good report to take home because she said that he did not deserve it because he had been picking on one of the pupils in her class. I cant remember now but there was also something about the bus driver saying that kids had come to her saying that the boy was threatening to kill his father about 3 weeks before he did and a family member also heard him say he was going to kill him just a short time before he actually did it.

And that is just little things that we learned. We really don't have the full school records to look at but really at 8 years old the history wouldn't be lengthy anyway.

imo

 

[southcitymom]

Hi, South,

You are right no complaints were ever lodged against Vinnie Romero or Tiffany.

IIRC, there were things in the boy's past though. A family member said he bullied his younger cousins. Another family member said he was spoiled and got everything he wanted. And one of his past teachers said that he was very manipulative. I believe the teacher who taught him at the time this happened wouldn't give him the good report to take home because she said that he did not deserve it because he had been picking on one of the pupils in her class. I cant remember now but there was also something about the bus driver saying that kids had come to her saying that the boy was threatening to kill his father about 3 weeks before he did and a family member also heard him say he was going to kill him just a short time before he actually did it.

And that is just little things that we learned. We really don't have the full school records to look at but really at 8 years old the history wouldn't be lengthy anyway.

imo

OBE,

Yes - I believe you are recalling correctly the details of the child's past that were reported prior to his shooting his dad and Roman. I remember the same things being reported.

Some of them I take with an enormous grain of salt - bullying of younger cousins, being called spoiled by some family members....those things don't raise my hairs much....I'm not even sure if they are accurate.....most younger cousins take a bit of bullying from older ones and families accuse each other of spoiling kids all the time. I mean, if those are the worst insults the family can come up with concerning an 8-year-old, they aren't very "impressive".

Even teachers describing him as manipulative or picking on other kids - I'm not saying those are inaccurate recollections - just, if a child in your class did this, you'd be pounding your brain to remember all the "negative" things about the child - that would be normal, I think. I know manipulative 8-year-olds and I know 8-year-olds who pick on other kids.....it's hard to make the leap from that "bad" behavior to the murder of two grown men!

I don't recall the details of him telling folks he was going to kill before he did it, but I do remember reading something like that.

I do also remember a story about how freaked out he was that he didn't have something he needed to take home from school - freaked out more than it seemed called for. His home life stressed him out, though I doubt we will ever know the full details of that.

You are correct that we don't really know what sort of school record he might have had. Still, I think if his behavior were truly aberrant, people in the community would have said so out loud after the killings. There would have been a lot more, "Well, honestly - we're not all that surprised" than "We are shocked!" I just recall everyone being so very very shocked.

We have such limited information. I'm okay with that though I know others find it frustrating.

 

[jjenny]

OBE,

Yes - I believe you are recalling correctly the details of the child's past that were reported prior to his shooting his dad and Roman. I remember the same things being reported.

Some of them I take with an enormous grain of salt - bullying of younger cousins, being called spoiled by some family members....those things don't raise my hairs much....I'm not even sure if they are accurate.....most younger cousins take a bit of bullying from older ones and families accuse each other of spoiling kids all the time. I mean, if those are the worst insults the family can come up with concerning an 8-year-old, they aren't very "impressive".

Even teachers describing him as manipulative or picking on other kids - I'm not saying those are inaccurate recollections - just, if a child in your class did this, you'd be pounding your brain to remember all the "negative" things about the child - that would be normal, I think. I know manipulative 8-year-olds and I know 8-year-olds who pick on other kids.....it's hard to make the leap from that "bad" behavior to the murder of two grown men!

I don't recall the details of him telling folks he was going to kill before he did it, but I do remember reading something like that.

I do also remember a story about how freaked out he was that he didn't have something he needed to take home from school - freaked out more than it seemed called for. His home life stressed him out, though I doubt we will ever know the full details of that.

You are correct that we don't really know what sort of school record he might have had. Still, I think if his behavior were truly aberrant, people in the community would have said so out loud after the killings. There would have been a lot more, "Well, honestly - we're not all that surprised" than "We are shocked!" I just recall everyone being so very very shocked.

We have such limited information. I'm okay with that though I know others find it frustrating.

Again, he was 8. No matter his behavior prior to this, no one expects an 8 year old to kill people.
Of course people are going to be shocked.

 

[southcitymom]

Again, he was 8. No matter his behavior prior to this, no one expects an 8 year old to kill people.
Of course people are going to be shocked.

Very fair point, of course. His age is key in all of this. His age is a huge reason I do not want to see him go to jail.

 

[trofanji]

I just like to know, where is it stated that he come back from school, puts his book bag under the table, prepared his gun and munitions and waiting to shoot both men? that's nothing more than speculation created in some blogs.

 

[southcitymom]

I just like to know, where is it stated that he come back from school, puts his book bag under the table, prepared his gun and munitions and waiting to shoot both men? that's nothing more than speculation created in some blogs.

I agree that that is just one interpretation of what we know. Still, if he did this (and I believe he did), you don't shoot and kill two grown men without a little planning, IMHO. I don't think this was an accidental shooting, so for me at least, it's fair to assume he got his gun and bullets ready for some shooting and then did some shooting.

One of the hardest aspects of this case for me is his killing of Romans. Even if I accept that his father was abusing him (as some folks claim) and that's why he shot his father, no one is claiming that Romans was abusing him and there is no evidence of that. So, he either shot Romans because he didn't want Romans to tell on him (pretty chilling, but I can see an 8-year-old's mind working that way) or Romans accidentally got in the way (a scenario that is harder for me to accept).

 

[Linda7NJ]

IMO This kid lacks a conscious. It's too late to for him to develop one.

The only effective treatment is to make the consequence as uncomfortable as possible so he comes to view his actions as an undesirable course of action. One he would not be willing to repeat.

If his motive was to go live with his mother....than his actions were rewarded. The likelihood he will kill again is increased through positive reinforcement. HUGE MISTAKE!

The boy did it. With that knowledge watch the confession tape again. It's chilling.

 

[trofanji]

IMO This kid lacks a conscious. It's too late to for him to develop one.

The only effective treatment is to make the consequence as uncomfortable as possible so he comes to view his actions as an undesirable course of action. One he would not be willing to repeat.

If his motive was to go live with his mother....than his actions were rewarded. The likelihood he will kill again is increased through positive reinforcement. HUGE MISTAKE!

The boy did it. With that knowledge watch the confession tape again. It's chilling.

What do you think is uncomfortable? If you want him in jail, that will not be happen. The probation time itself is uncomfortable enough I think and in my opinion much too long. You can look this interrogation video again and again, it won't get better and it won't get useable at trial. IMO

 

[Linda7NJ]

What do you think is uncomfortable? If you want him in jail, that will not be happen. The probation time itself is uncomfortable enough I think and in my opinion much too long. You can look this interrogation video again and again, it won't get better and it won't get useable at trial. IMO

What I want is no secret. I think the probation time is appropriate.

There will be no trial so your point is lost on me.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I just like to know, where is it stated that he come back from school, puts his book bag under the table, prepared his gun and munitions and waiting to shoot both men? that's nothing more than speculation created in some blogs.

There are sources to this information. One on the Appache Court site itself and another site where you must have a ID and password to be able to look at revealed documents.

How do you think he was able to bring down two men if it was not premediated?

1. He said that he walked around the block 10-11 times in the wide open spaces once he got off of the school bus around 2:40 pm. YET not a soul saw him anywhere and there were people from the neighborhood coming and leaving the neighborhood. He had already said he was going to kill his father. I dont think it is far fetched to believe he went home, prepared for the murders and waited until his father and coworker arrived home from work around 4:47 pm, iirc. He even knew his stepmom would be late that day.

2. His book bag was found underneath the kitchen table.

3. A BOX of .22 bullets was found on a table inside the home.

4. Minutes before Romans was murdered he was on the phone with his wife. He told her he had to go and the boy (name) was calling him to come inside.

5. We know that Tim Romans never made it and died when he was struck with six shots by a .22 and bled to death on the front porch area of the Romero home.

6. Neighbor across the street hears gun shots and a couple of minutes later sees the boy pat his dog on the head and WALK away from the crime scene.

7. By 5:03 it was all over. From the beginning of the murder of Vinnie Romero and then Tim Romans, him leaving the scene, telling the neighborhood kid, and the teenager calling his father to come home and then the father calling 911 at 5:03 pm when he drove up to the Romero home and saw Romans body on the porch.

So at 4:47 pm both men were alive and by 5:00 pm they were both dead and he was walking away from the crime scene.

imo

 

[trofanji]

What I want is no secret. I think the probation time is appropriate.

There will be no trial so your point is lost on me.

There will be no trial of course, I personally wish it would have gone to trial, or better the competency hearing toke place in February last year just before they enter the plea.

 

[trofanji]

There are sources to this information. One on the Appache Court site itself and another site where you must have a ID and password to be able to look at revealed documents.

How do you think he was able to bring down two men if it was not premediated?

1. He said that he walked around the block 10-11 times in the wide open spaces once he got off of the school bus around 2:40 pm. YET not a soul saw him anywhere and there were people from the neighborhood coming and leaving the neighborhood. He had already said he was going to kill his father. I dont think it is far fetched to believe he went home, prepared for the murders and waited until his father and coworker arrived home from work around 4:47 pm, iirc. He even knew his stepmom would be late that day.

2. His book bag was found underneath the kitchen table.

3. A BOX of .22 bullets was found on a table inside the home.

4. Minutes before Romans was murdered he was on the phone with his wife. He told her he had to go and the boy (name) was calling him to come inside.

5. We know that Tim Romans never made it and died when he was struck with six shots by a .22 and bled to death on the front porch area of the Romero home.

6. Neighbor across the street hears gun shots and a couple of minutes later sees the boy pat his dog on the head and WALK away from the crime scene.

7. By 5:03 it was all over. From the beginning of the murder of Vinnie Romero and then Tim Romans, him leaving the scene, telling the neighborhood kid, and the teenager calling his father to come home and then the father calling 911 at 5:03 pm when he drove up to the Romero home and saw Romans body on the porch.

So at 4:47 pm both men were alive and by 5:00 pm they were both dead and he was walking away from the crime scene.

imo

There is in no public document stated that the shootings where planed, they thought it was planed. -You can be sure I read all the public accessible document's also. You can make your personal assumption based about all that was released, but I'm sure in no document was stated that it definitely was planed , or I really missed one. Than would it be fine to name the document where you read about it.
And what had the book bag found underneath the kitchen table to do with the shooting's? for what is it evidence? it shows only that he was at home when he comes back from school. It's no evidence that stated that he was at home all the time. IMO

 

[Linda7NJ]

There is in no public document stated that the shootings where planed, they thought it was planed. -You can be sure I read all the public accessible document's also. You can make your personal assumption based about all that was released, but I'm sure in no document was stated that it definitely was planed , or I really missed one. Than would it be fine to name the document where you read about it.
And what had the book bag found underneath the kitchen table to do with the shooting's? for what is it evidence? it shows only that he was at home when he comes back from school. It's no evidence that stated that he was at home all the time. IMO

Are you seriously saying that you believe there was no premeditation? His father was still wearing his work hat and had just entered the house. Are you claiming he shot his father in self defense, on the spur of the moment?

Regardless of how you believe he came to shoot and murder his father, Tim's murder was premeditated.