Book released by Defense Attorney, Nov 2015 #2
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YESorNO
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And another part of NG interview:
http://www.hlntv.com/shows/nancy-gr...from-jodi-arias-former-attorney?cid=H57183a10
http://www.hlntv.com/shows/nancy-gr...from-jodi-arias-former-attorney?cid=H57183a10
Lilibet
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Thanks for the interview clips YorN. As usual, no one can get a word in edgewise with NG. At least on the second clip, it's just Nurmi talking. I couldn't help but notice FWIW that the pace of his speech is so much faster than it was at trial when he was questioning JA. He really seemed to have trouble formulating his questions. Perhaps it was taking every ounce of self-control on his part to walk her through the testimony she insisted on giving without screaming at her.
As he pointed out, if he could have defended her as a young woman with no priors who had an uncharacteristic moment of blind fury, the jury might have connected with that. But really, JA sealed her own fate by insisting on a "trash Travis" defense. In a way, I'm thankful she did that, or she might have been sentenced to less time in prison. JMO
As he pointed out, if he could have defended her as a young woman with no priors who had an uncharacteristic moment of blind fury, the jury might have connected with that. But really, JA sealed her own fate by insisting on a "trash Travis" defense. In a way, I'm thankful she did that, or she might have been sentenced to less time in prison. JMO
Sweetiemom
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Didn't know this...might explain the bald head and that stupid hat he was wearing during his interview...
http://nurmilaw.com/cancer/
http://nurmilaw.com/cancer/
Lilibet
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A cancer diagnosis is devastating...and then you move forward and do what is necessary, but it is still very hard. I'm truly sorry Nurmi and his family have to deal with this, and I admire his desire to help others as he was helped. I wish him well.
YESorNO
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L. Kirk Nurmi ‏@_nurmilaw 2h2 hours ago
Sharing this publicly was a tough personal decision but out of the hope that my story would help someone #cancer
http://nurmilaw.com/cancer/
Sharing this publicly was a tough personal decision but out of the hope that my story would help someone #cancer
http://nurmilaw.com/cancer/
I hope the Felon does not try to contact KN at all. I know he can deny her calls, but there is mail or her minions etc. to do an evil deeds she wants. I do wonder if the stress of the trial triggered the cancer...cancer may have always been there but it was triggered earlier then it might have been.... AND to think that he may have had early stages, undetectable, during the first trial....he may have been able to get off the second trial, if he knew he had cancer.
Even thought I do not like how KN handled himself or his team, presented the case during this trial, I do not wish any bad on him or the team. I hope he is able to defeat the cancer and live a full life.
Even thought I do not like how KN handled himself or his team, presented the case during this trial, I do not wish any bad on him or the team. I hope he is able to defeat the cancer and live a full life.
YESorNO
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Trapped with Ms. Arias
Section 8
Pretrial Issues
L will discuss
-in chap 40- the murderer's 1st experience as her own atty
-in chap 41- rules of felony murder
-in chap 42- trying to settle case before 2013
-in chap 43- dealing with media before the trial
-in chap 44- others steps he took
-in chap 45- the delays
==================================================
Chapter 40
Ms. Arias Goes "Pro-Per"
L cannot share talks he had with the murderer about her choice or what he knows about her decision to go "Pro-Per" -client-atty privilege
"...back in 2011, before most of the world knew much about Ms. Arias, a hearing took place regarding the admissibility of 'The Letters'.....both parties ultimately shifted from their original position, at this hearing, the State was seeking to keep 'The Letters' out of evidence during the trial. Likewise the defense, with Ms. Arias acting as her own counsel, also had a different position in that the original assertation by the defense was that we wanted 'The Letters' to come into trial." (pg. 228)
"...in my mind, the viability of those letters as evidence supporting Ms. Arias' claims was almost non-existent after three by five cards and pens found in Ms. Arias' cell...they were cards with someone's attempt to stimulate Mr. Alexander's handwriting on them or so the State's expert would say"
L states that if he were the murderer's atty at the time, he "would have walked into this hearing and withdrawn my desire to admit the letters...state's motion would have been granted..a victory for the State. However, at that time, I saw it differently. My perspective ....was that it would be harmful... to the case. An idea it would seem to MR. Martinez came to years later."
L's plan- letters would not be in evidence- problem solved
the murderer became her own atty- "Pro-Per"
L explains "Pro-Per" and the law
the hearing was long- time spent talking about the murderer's "desire to represent herself"
the murderer became "lead counsel", L and Co-counsel became "advisory counsel"
The murderer was to act as her own atty- call witnesses, cross examine witnesses, argue her story
next- evidentiary portion of hearing- state to call handwriting analyst (Dept. of Public Safety)
-he analyzed the 3x5 cards, handwriting found in magazines that belonged to murderer (confiscated by jail staff) and the letters "purportingly written" by TA and sent to the murderer
- he said "in his opinion" - cards someones attempt to copy TA's handwriting; "probable" that the message in magazine were written by the murderer "and that Ms. Arias' expert could not reach the conclusion she did about who authored these letters "
L states again that "the designation 'highly probable' is the greatest level of certainty in the field of handwriting analysis"
so this means "in the opinion of the State's expert that Ms. Arias' expert was wrong when she concluded that it was 'highly probable' that Mr. Alexander wrote these letters" - "highly probable" rating designation used by the murderer's expert improper - couldn't be used "when the handwriting comparison was being done from a photocopy" (pg. 231)
the murderer called 2 witnesses- defense's handwriting expert, former podmate, Heather who moved on from jail to prison
-the murderer tried to prove that Heather wrote the things in magazine- L stated that none of Heather's testimony or the murderer's questions "made any sense to me"
"Futhermore, I didn't believe a word that Heather was saying. For those of you might be thinking I was obliged to do something about this testimony that I perceived to be false I should point out that I had no such obligation. In fact, it is more accurate to say that I was obligated to keep my mouth shut so as to not interfere with my client's ability to represent herself. To explain further, I was not the attorney nor was I the person judging the testimony" (pg. 231)
JM questioned Heather "her testimony on cross was every bit as unbelievable as it had been on direct...maybe more unbelievable"
L knew letters would be precluded
"...it really freaked me out a little..Ms. Arias seemed so proud and happy with this girl's testimony, she seemed to relish the fact that this girl was willing to lie for her. The look on her face was what I might imagine on a cult leader as they watched members of their flock kill themselves on command" (pg. 232)
the murderer called defense's handwriting expert- asked expert some questions "about what she had done prior to that point. Eventually the questioning uncovered the reality that this expert might be able to alter her conclusions if she had time to examine the new materials that had recently become available"
L states that at this time in the hearing - would be a good time for the murderer to "ask for a continuance" so expert could do examination
"..for whatever reason, Ms. Arias shocked us all and said something nonsensical about driving a ship that she did not know how to steer and then announced her desire to resign as counsel. Ms Arias no longer wanted to play and the nonsense was about to come to an end." (pg, 232)
judge eager to grant request, but 1st L wanted to speak- judge not happy about that
L stated that he was "concerned about my ability to represent Ms. Arias if she was simply allowed to represent herself when she felt like it" then have L and Co-counsel take over "whenever she felt she didn't want to play anymore"
L was worried because every time the murderer didn't like what his "strategy" she would want to represent herself again "screw up the case ...give it back" to do damage control
L had researched law about self-representation- when client wanted to initially represent themselves and then resigned "any subsequent requests she made to represent herself were not entitled to...automatic approval...[on]"second request" ...the court has ...absolute discretion and/or ability to deny....for what ever reason" (pg. 233)
L wanted court to tell the murderer this "legal reality"- court asked murderer if she understood- she said "yes"
L withdrew "The Letters" "for the time being"
================================================
Chapter 41
Felony Murder?
State's choice to charge the murderer with first Degree Murder under the "felony murder rule"
L explains First Degree Murder-premeditated murder and First Degree Murder- felony murder
L gives eg. of felony murder:
- man goes to rob store with unloaded gun with no plans to use it, owner dies of heart attack- while robber is getting away, he runs over lady by mistake- she dies- Felony murder? "yes"- committed felony murder 2x- charged with First Degree Murder- could receive DP even tho' it was not pre-planned
L states that:
"In my mind, based on the facts of the case [what happened June 4, 2008]either Ms. Arias arrived at Mr. Alexander's home planning to kill him or she did not...the State, perhaps out of concern that they could not prove premeditation First Degree Murder, also charged Ms. Arias with this same crime via the felony murder rule" (pg. 236)
this made no sense to L- he challenged- wanted to know "underlying crime" (rule- must be underlying crime when death happens)- State did not specify when she was originally charged- State protested L's challenge, but any person charged entitled to know
L claims that JM not happy because he had "to come up with something"
state claimed it was burglary (with intent to commit a felony) when the murderer pointed a gun at TA with intentions of killing him "and that during her attempt to facilitate this murder she actually committed the murder she intended to commit. Follow that? No? Well neither do I"
according to State's theory "any murder that occurs indoors (because of the different types of burglary) could be charged as felony murder, even when the goal of the killer was to commit the crime of murder in the first place."
didn't make sense to L- he challenged- State said "that the underlying felony related to murder and because she committed the murder that she could be charged with felony murder"
again made no sense to L- argued again to "no avail and the charge stood"
was a "big deal" to L "..for two reasons. The first being, that it gave the State two ways to get a First Degree Murder conviction when. in my mind at least, only one should have been available to them. Second, and more importantly it was a way for the State to eliminate the lesser included offense of second degree murder and manslaughter, crimes for which Ms. Arias could not be sentenced to death. It was a very big deal" (pg. 238)
=============================================
Chapter 42
Trying to Settle
"Any resolution of a capital case short of trial inherently means that your client is not going to be executed"
L states that when "client is not going to be executed, that constitutes a win for that attorney"
win for client too
L states best capital case is a "...case that doesn't go to trial"
capt'l cases means- "long hours almost every day of the week....several hours each weekend is commonplace.....have to say 'I'm very sorry' to your spouse.." - always thinking about case "constantly...no down time"
L wanted to avoid the murderer's trial "so badly"- L's experience- "this was going to be a another tough trial to say the least"
L stated that being in trial in murderer's case "it negatively impacted my personal life"
high profile nature of trial- "greater than a typical death penalty trial. I feared that this case would require more apologies than normal... may take longer than most cases...
...the rules in place in Arizona specifically dictate that lead counsel is to seek out a resolution short of death for their client (even if it is not the client's main goal) which makes sense because a life sentence is always the number one goal of a capital defense attorney" (pg. 240)
L states that both defense and state must agree on resolution- defense must negotiate between state and client
claims that with JM "resolving a case by plea was not typically an option"
"For her part, Ms. Arias thought that accepting guilt for the crime of second degree murder was doing the world a favor"
L hoped that decision would rest with County Attorney Bill Montgomery (BM) and not JM
but "The rumors were to the effect that Mr. Montgomery felt intimidated" by JM.."I had no idea if this rumor were true or not"
L stated that JM was able to convince BM that the sentence of death was "justified"
"I did not want to try this case. I wanted it to go away!"
L stated that he needed "to lay a few of my cards on the table...not my typical way of doing things....if I disclosed some information to the State that I was not otherwise obligated to disclose, that"..JM "might share my vision..best for all involved if the case went away quickly and quietly" (pg. 241)
5th + 6th amendments - "provide the authority for defense attorneys to hold back certain information...things that Ms. Arias said about the crime to her experts were things that I could have hid from the State under the rules of Arizona. I chose not to keep things hidden or interfere with Dr. DeMarte asking similiar questions. Why? I wanted" BM "to know exactly where this case was going....to make sure he understood where this case was going to go so he could decide if he really wanted to travel down this road. I wanted him to know that Ms. Arias was going to claim that her victim was an abusive pedophile against whom she had to defend herself. I wanted him to know how out of control this case could get. It was my thinking that if he saw crazy this case was going to get that he might be more inclined to seek a resolution that avoided such a debacle from ever occurring...Obviously, we did not settle the case.." (pgs. 241-242)
==============================================
Next
Chapter 43
Dealing With the Media Before Trial
Chapter 44
WE Gotta Get Out of Town or Shut the Jury Down
Chapter 45
The So-Called Delays
End of Section 8 (pg. 253)
=====================================
Section 8
Pretrial Issues
L will discuss
-in chap 40- the murderer's 1st experience as her own atty
-in chap 41- rules of felony murder
-in chap 42- trying to settle case before 2013
-in chap 43- dealing with media before the trial
-in chap 44- others steps he took
-in chap 45- the delays
==================================================
Chapter 40
Ms. Arias Goes "Pro-Per"
L cannot share talks he had with the murderer about her choice or what he knows about her decision to go "Pro-Per" -client-atty privilege
"...back in 2011, before most of the world knew much about Ms. Arias, a hearing took place regarding the admissibility of 'The Letters'.....both parties ultimately shifted from their original position, at this hearing, the State was seeking to keep 'The Letters' out of evidence during the trial. Likewise the defense, with Ms. Arias acting as her own counsel, also had a different position in that the original assertation by the defense was that we wanted 'The Letters' to come into trial." (pg. 228)
"...in my mind, the viability of those letters as evidence supporting Ms. Arias' claims was almost non-existent after three by five cards and pens found in Ms. Arias' cell...they were cards with someone's attempt to stimulate Mr. Alexander's handwriting on them or so the State's expert would say"
L states that if he were the murderer's atty at the time, he "would have walked into this hearing and withdrawn my desire to admit the letters...state's motion would have been granted..a victory for the State. However, at that time, I saw it differently. My perspective ....was that it would be harmful... to the case. An idea it would seem to MR. Martinez came to years later."
L's plan- letters would not be in evidence- problem solved
the murderer became her own atty- "Pro-Per"
L explains "Pro-Per" and the law
the hearing was long- time spent talking about the murderer's "desire to represent herself"
the murderer became "lead counsel", L and Co-counsel became "advisory counsel"
The murderer was to act as her own atty- call witnesses, cross examine witnesses, argue her story
next- evidentiary portion of hearing- state to call handwriting analyst (Dept. of Public Safety)
-he analyzed the 3x5 cards, handwriting found in magazines that belonged to murderer (confiscated by jail staff) and the letters "purportingly written" by TA and sent to the murderer
- he said "in his opinion" - cards someones attempt to copy TA's handwriting; "probable" that the message in magazine were written by the murderer "and that Ms. Arias' expert could not reach the conclusion she did about who authored these letters "
L states again that "the designation 'highly probable' is the greatest level of certainty in the field of handwriting analysis"
so this means "in the opinion of the State's expert that Ms. Arias' expert was wrong when she concluded that it was 'highly probable' that Mr. Alexander wrote these letters" - "highly probable" rating designation used by the murderer's expert improper - couldn't be used "when the handwriting comparison was being done from a photocopy" (pg. 231)
the murderer called 2 witnesses- defense's handwriting expert, former podmate, Heather who moved on from jail to prison
-the murderer tried to prove that Heather wrote the things in magazine- L stated that none of Heather's testimony or the murderer's questions "made any sense to me"
"Futhermore, I didn't believe a word that Heather was saying. For those of you might be thinking I was obliged to do something about this testimony that I perceived to be false I should point out that I had no such obligation. In fact, it is more accurate to say that I was obligated to keep my mouth shut so as to not interfere with my client's ability to represent herself. To explain further, I was not the attorney nor was I the person judging the testimony" (pg. 231)
JM questioned Heather "her testimony on cross was every bit as unbelievable as it had been on direct...maybe more unbelievable"
L knew letters would be precluded
"...it really freaked me out a little..Ms. Arias seemed so proud and happy with this girl's testimony, she seemed to relish the fact that this girl was willing to lie for her. The look on her face was what I might imagine on a cult leader as they watched members of their flock kill themselves on command" (pg. 232)
the murderer called defense's handwriting expert- asked expert some questions "about what she had done prior to that point. Eventually the questioning uncovered the reality that this expert might be able to alter her conclusions if she had time to examine the new materials that had recently become available"
L states that at this time in the hearing - would be a good time for the murderer to "ask for a continuance" so expert could do examination
"..for whatever reason, Ms. Arias shocked us all and said something nonsensical about driving a ship that she did not know how to steer and then announced her desire to resign as counsel. Ms Arias no longer wanted to play and the nonsense was about to come to an end." (pg, 232)
judge eager to grant request, but 1st L wanted to speak- judge not happy about that
L stated that he was "concerned about my ability to represent Ms. Arias if she was simply allowed to represent herself when she felt like it" then have L and Co-counsel take over "whenever she felt she didn't want to play anymore"
L was worried because every time the murderer didn't like what his "strategy" she would want to represent herself again "screw up the case ...give it back" to do damage control
L had researched law about self-representation- when client wanted to initially represent themselves and then resigned "any subsequent requests she made to represent herself were not entitled to...automatic approval...[on]"second request" ...the court has ...absolute discretion and/or ability to deny....for what ever reason" (pg. 233)
L wanted court to tell the murderer this "legal reality"- court asked murderer if she understood- she said "yes"
L withdrew "The Letters" "for the time being"
================================================
Chapter 41
Felony Murder?
State's choice to charge the murderer with first Degree Murder under the "felony murder rule"
L explains First Degree Murder-premeditated murder and First Degree Murder- felony murder
L gives eg. of felony murder:
- man goes to rob store with unloaded gun with no plans to use it, owner dies of heart attack- while robber is getting away, he runs over lady by mistake- she dies- Felony murder? "yes"- committed felony murder 2x- charged with First Degree Murder- could receive DP even tho' it was not pre-planned
L states that:
"In my mind, based on the facts of the case [what happened June 4, 2008]either Ms. Arias arrived at Mr. Alexander's home planning to kill him or she did not...the State, perhaps out of concern that they could not prove premeditation First Degree Murder, also charged Ms. Arias with this same crime via the felony murder rule" (pg. 236)
this made no sense to L- he challenged- wanted to know "underlying crime" (rule- must be underlying crime when death happens)- State did not specify when she was originally charged- State protested L's challenge, but any person charged entitled to know
L claims that JM not happy because he had "to come up with something"
state claimed it was burglary (with intent to commit a felony) when the murderer pointed a gun at TA with intentions of killing him "and that during her attempt to facilitate this murder she actually committed the murder she intended to commit. Follow that? No? Well neither do I"
according to State's theory "any murder that occurs indoors (because of the different types of burglary) could be charged as felony murder, even when the goal of the killer was to commit the crime of murder in the first place."
didn't make sense to L- he challenged- State said "that the underlying felony related to murder and because she committed the murder that she could be charged with felony murder"
again made no sense to L- argued again to "no avail and the charge stood"
was a "big deal" to L "..for two reasons. The first being, that it gave the State two ways to get a First Degree Murder conviction when. in my mind at least, only one should have been available to them. Second, and more importantly it was a way for the State to eliminate the lesser included offense of second degree murder and manslaughter, crimes for which Ms. Arias could not be sentenced to death. It was a very big deal" (pg. 238)
=============================================
Chapter 42
Trying to Settle
"Any resolution of a capital case short of trial inherently means that your client is not going to be executed"
L states that when "client is not going to be executed, that constitutes a win for that attorney"
win for client too
L states best capital case is a "...case that doesn't go to trial"
capt'l cases means- "long hours almost every day of the week....several hours each weekend is commonplace.....have to say 'I'm very sorry' to your spouse.." - always thinking about case "constantly...no down time"
L wanted to avoid the murderer's trial "so badly"- L's experience- "this was going to be a another tough trial to say the least"
L stated that being in trial in murderer's case "it negatively impacted my personal life"
high profile nature of trial- "greater than a typical death penalty trial. I feared that this case would require more apologies than normal... may take longer than most cases...
...the rules in place in Arizona specifically dictate that lead counsel is to seek out a resolution short of death for their client (even if it is not the client's main goal) which makes sense because a life sentence is always the number one goal of a capital defense attorney" (pg. 240)
L states that both defense and state must agree on resolution- defense must negotiate between state and client
claims that with JM "resolving a case by plea was not typically an option"
"For her part, Ms. Arias thought that accepting guilt for the crime of second degree murder was doing the world a favor"
L hoped that decision would rest with County Attorney Bill Montgomery (BM) and not JM
but "The rumors were to the effect that Mr. Montgomery felt intimidated" by JM.."I had no idea if this rumor were true or not"
L stated that JM was able to convince BM that the sentence of death was "justified"
"I did not want to try this case. I wanted it to go away!"
L stated that he needed "to lay a few of my cards on the table...not my typical way of doing things....if I disclosed some information to the State that I was not otherwise obligated to disclose, that"..JM "might share my vision..best for all involved if the case went away quickly and quietly" (pg. 241)
5th + 6th amendments - "provide the authority for defense attorneys to hold back certain information...things that Ms. Arias said about the crime to her experts were things that I could have hid from the State under the rules of Arizona. I chose not to keep things hidden or interfere with Dr. DeMarte asking similiar questions. Why? I wanted" BM "to know exactly where this case was going....to make sure he understood where this case was going to go so he could decide if he really wanted to travel down this road. I wanted him to know that Ms. Arias was going to claim that her victim was an abusive pedophile against whom she had to defend herself. I wanted him to know how out of control this case could get. It was my thinking that if he saw crazy this case was going to get that he might be more inclined to seek a resolution that avoided such a debacle from ever occurring...Obviously, we did not settle the case.." (pgs. 241-242)
==============================================
Next
Chapter 43
Dealing With the Media Before Trial
Chapter 44
WE Gotta Get Out of Town or Shut the Jury Down
Chapter 45
The So-Called Delays
End of Section 8 (pg. 253)
=====================================
ElleElle
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That is really too bad. I hope he beats it.
CarolinaMoon
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Again, Yes or No, thank you.
The plea agreement Nurmi & Arias wanted would never have worked with Martinez. 2nd degree murder? No way! Martinez knew that this was a fully premeditated murder by a woman who's mind was terribly sick. 2nd degree murder, even with a life sentence (which WASN'T what the defense wanted), would allow the murderer to get out someday on parole. It diminished the fact that she murdered Travis 3 times over. The blood, the gore, the horrible crime scene couldn't just be erased by a self-defense plea. Perhaps if she had bargained for LWOP, there might have been a deal.
I do wish Nurmi success with his cancer treatment. May he live long and prosper.
After hearing the highlights of the book, I appreciate what the murderer took from him.
The plea agreement Nurmi & Arias wanted would never have worked with Martinez. 2nd degree murder? No way! Martinez knew that this was a fully premeditated murder by a woman who's mind was terribly sick. 2nd degree murder, even with a life sentence (which WASN'T what the defense wanted), would allow the murderer to get out someday on parole. It diminished the fact that she murdered Travis 3 times over. The blood, the gore, the horrible crime scene couldn't just be erased by a self-defense plea. Perhaps if she had bargained for LWOP, there might have been a deal.
I do wish Nurmi success with his cancer treatment. May he live long and prosper.
After hearing the highlights of the book, I appreciate what the murderer took from him.
G&AMom
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I agree, Jodi always wanted a chance to get out, and wasn't going to accept less. In fact, at her sentencing, Samantha Alexander said that the family offered to settle for natural life, no appeals, no parole, and Jodi refused.
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RickshawFan
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He wears a very obvious T-shirt, too, perhaps to ease irritation from the port.
Does anyone else wonder if the (several) delays regarding JM's book have something to do with Nurmi's book and the subsequent revelation of a cancer diagnosis? Do you think they (his publishers) are re-tooling things? Just wondering...
RickshawFan
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I doubt delays in JM's book have anything to do with KN. JM's book may have "issues" in its own right that need to get resolved or he might still be writing. I'm guessing the latter: many authors are still writing till the very last minute. Remember those papers in college?
G&AMom
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I thought it got delayed because Jodi's current attorneys filed a motion to prevent publication until they'd been assured there was nothing in the book that would harm Jodi's appeals.
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