Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #12

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I understand why people do it, but the prison-rape humor is kind of eh. JMO
 
Snipped for relevance from Criminal Code (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-46)

(2) Murder is first degree murder when it is planned and deliberate.

(5) Irrespective of whether a murder is planned and deliberate on the part of any person, murder is first degree murder in respect of a person when the death is caused by that person while committing or attempting to commit an offence under one of the following sections:

(a) section 76 (hijacking an aircraft);

(b) section 271 (sexual assault);

(c) section 272 (sexual assault with a weapon, threats to a third party or causing bodily harm);

(d) section 273 (aggravated sexual assault);

(e) section 279 (kidnapping and forcible confinement); or

(f) section 279.1 (hostage taking).

So could it be that the forcible confinement charge was simply the charge to hold DM while they got evidence of the murder charge in place, or is it an alternative in case the jury don't find 'planned and deliberate?
 
Staceys said:
After all this with the letters ect...I am thinking DM pulled the trigger of MS's gun...MS was in the Yukon at the time of the shot(s) fired. GSR found all over the RAM truck....but non was found in the Yukon?? (if I remember correctly)....shooting in the truck produced a high concentration of GSR....pulling a tigger even more....pulling a trigger then moving back to the Yukon would have transferred high concetrations of GSR in the Yukon.
The plan was to steal and kill...Only MS was called to the "mission" because the plan was for the seller to never come home.
MS was tasked with cleaning the RAM truck (which he failed at), manning the incinerator (which he likely didn't do properly as per DM's instruction).
MS likely couldn't keep up after it all went down....so DM was scrambling.
CN was the only person he could reach out to in an attempt to manipulate and try to save his *advertiser censored*.
While CN is guilty after the fact - of going along with him ect, she is "not over him" in the least and may never be. She did not "end" the relationship on her terms - an arrest prematurely did....over time and with age she maybe would have came to her senses and likely grown apart from him. She has no closure and will continue to be drawn to him until she finally finds what she is looking for in some else...that will be hard. When they are both in jail I would assume they could write each other.... When she is out and he is still in I would suspect she will visit.

All MOO on a Friday am.

Thinking of the Bosma's today and always...it could have been any family...my husband even. She had it right. The devil smiled at her before taking Tim away....chilling
Click to expand...

Loved your whole post.

re:bbm That has been the most disturbing aspect of this case for me; that could've been my husband, or any one of my friends/their husbands. I know this is cold comfort for SB and the rest of the B family, but at the very least this has taught us all a very valuable lesson about selling things (especially vehicles!) to strangers online, and has hopefully saved someone's life. That probably isn't much to hold on to, but I am trying to look for the light in a horrendous murder that, clearly, is void of one shred of decency save for SS's FIL.
 
Nosey Parker said:
Snipped for relevance from Criminal Code (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-46)

(2) Murder is first degree murder when it is planned and deliberate.

(5) Irrespective of whether a murder is planned and deliberate on the part of any person, murder is first degree murder in respect of a person when the death is caused by that person while committing or attempting to commit an offence under one of the following sections:

(a) section 76 (hijacking an aircraft);

(b) section 271 (sexual assault);

(c) section 272 (sexual assault with a weapon, threats to a third party or causing bodily harm);

(d) section 273 (aggravated sexual assault);

(e) section 279 (kidnapping and forcible confinement); or

(f) section 279.1 (hostage taking).

So could it be that the forcible confinement charge was simply the charge to hold DM while they got evidence of the murder charge in place, or is it an alternative in case the jury don't find 'planned and deliberate?
Click to expand...

At the time of the charge, TB's whereabouts was still unknown but one thing is for sure his truck is missing and there is a chance he is still alive. But because LE has no proof that TB is still alive, forcible confinement is what applies to the crime committed. LE then upgraded the charge to murder after discovering TB's cremains in the eliminator.
 
Slooter said:
At the time of the charge, TB's whereabouts was still unknown but one thing is for sure his truck is missing and there is a chance he is still alive. But because LE has no proof that TB is still alive, forcible confinement is what applies to the crime committed. LE then upgraded the charge to murder after discovering TB's cremains in the eliminator.
Click to expand...

Thank you. So is Forcible Confinement off the table now? Also posters have been saying that premeditation does not have to be proved. Correct or incorrect?
 
Kamille said:
ETA: And both would have touched it before the arrest, hence the panic after the arrest.
Click to expand...

Yes, and that was why I said that it would be pointless for CN to be wiping DM'S prints off of the trailer locks as some people in this thread have speculated.
She was wiping her own prints and MB's prints from the trailer and not DM's.
DM owned the trailer so naturally his prints would be all over it.
 
Noudga testified that after dropping off the trailer in Kleinburg she and DM went straight to the Waterloo hangar. However, I think she's lying and they actually went somewhere else, such as Riverside, first. Here are some events from the timeline:

  • Around 11:34pm (May 9) MB texted, "Dellen... what's happening? You got me concerned..." (Showing they had just left Kleinburg IMO)
  • DM's phone pinged in Milton at 1:30am. (En route to the hangar IMO)
  • CN's phone pinged in Milton at 3:43am. (En route back to Toronto IMO)
  • They met Hagerman in Etobicoke sometime after 4am.
  • They went back to Maple Gate and slept there.
  • DM arrived back at the hangar for a meeting around 7:30am.

It takes an hour to drive to the hangar from Kleinburg, so they should have arrived at the hangar around 12:30am according to Noudga's testimony. However, DM's phone pinged in Milton at 1:30am. IMO this is when they were en route to the hangar, so they should have actually arrived there around 2am. If this is right, then there is a 1.5 hour gap in Noudga's testimony.

What they would have done during this time is anybody's guess, but one possibility is that they dumped ashes in the backyard of Riverside. To explain how this might have happened, rewind to earlier in the day when DM was at the farm with Smich. While there, he called SS and found out about the Crimestoppers call, which sent him into emergency "retooling for stormy weather" mode: clean out the incinerator (in his rush he was not thorough) and put the ashes in the truck (no time to dump them anywhere at the farm), speed back to the hangar to get TB's truck in the trailer, drop off Smich, pick up Noudga, ditch the trailer in Kleinburg, etc. By that point, he still had the ashes. Where was a discrete place to dump them off quickly (and possibly have a little escapade with Noudga)? Riverside.

From there, they headed to the hangar for 2am and switched the red pickup for the Yukon, then drove to the farm to move the incinerator. Then around 3:20am they left the farm to head back to Etobicoke to give Hagerman the toolbox.
 
Typhoo1961 said:
There would be no point to wiping DM's prints from the trailer locks. The reason was it is his own property ever since he bought it (or stolen it) and his prints would be all over it anyway.
Pointless. It would be the same as my sons wiping my prints from my walker if I had committed a crime with that and was currently in jail.
Click to expand...

I don't think either CN or MB were thinking that clearly, coulda been the wine talking if you know what I mean. But I think they were already thinking about covering up and whoever's fingerprints were on those locks likely belonged to the person that put them on there. Cos motives might have been a little different, though I don't see her as the one that would have locked it up.
 
Nosey Parker said:
Snipped for relevance from Criminal Code (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-46)

(2) Murder is first degree murder when it is planned and deliberate.

(5) Irrespective of whether a murder is planned and deliberate on the part of any person, murder is first degree murder in respect of a person when the death is caused by that person while committing or attempting to commit an offence under one of the following sections:

(a) section 76 (hijacking an aircraft);

(b) section 271 (sexual assault);

(c) section 272 (sexual assault with a weapon, threats to a third party or causing bodily harm);

(d) section 273 (aggravated sexual assault);

(e) section 279 (kidnapping and forcible confinement); or

(f) section 279.1 (hostage taking).

So could it be that the forcible confinement charge was simply the charge to hold DM while they got evidence of the murder charge in place, or is it an alternative in case the jury don't find 'planned and deliberate?
Click to expand...

Im not 100% sure what is going on. Im sure it will be explained in the closing statement and the instructions to the jury, but I haven't heard talk of forcible confinement. I have seen lots of talk of premeditation though.
 
CJPRINCESS said:
This is why I think a lawyer helped. I don't know how Hamilton jails work, but find it hard to believe it's any differnt then other jails. You go in, show ID, get buzzed through a steal door, take a seat and talk on phones with glass between visitor and inmate. Mommy's don't have special privilege! My mother didn't either and dad was in for something supid, not murder! The only way mommy rabbit could pass CN'S letters directly, would be for DM to read them up against the glass.

I haven't made it past this post yet, so not sure if anyone that's familiar with Hamilton jail answered this yet. Sorry in advance as I read on :)
Click to expand...

This theory could explain why the lawyer changed occurred and why they waited so long to go to trial.... but wouldn't the lawyer have been charged? And why wasn't DM charged for communicating with CN if she was on his do-not-contact? seems fishy.
 
.

Not defending CN or MB but if they began to suspect the trailer was used by DM in a crime they would be wise to remove their own fingerprints .... after all they were not involved with the truck theft were they ??

I found an abandoned vehicle on one of my properties and looked in the glove box for the owner registration (wasn't there) so I called the cops and reported it

Turns out it was a stolen car that was used in a robbery and now it had my prints on it ..... I had to supply cops with my prints so they could eliminate mine from the others. I lost a whole day of work and if I had to do it over I would have used gloves or wiped my prints off and told the cops I never touched it. They also kept my fingerprints on file which was not a problem because I have never been involved in crime and have nothing to fear ..... but I objected because normally only criminals have their prints in police files and I was not one
 
MorningStar22 said:
So is it believed that she is still in love with him? Otherwise, why would she care?
Click to expand...
I agree, the various sex acts and in particular the under steering wheel favour that she (unnecessarily) testified of, IMO, is her way of continuing to communicate with her DM, to keep him fantasizing about the Arabian Princess while they are apart.
I do not believe she would have raised these (pun intended) if DM was not sitting there.
 
It looks like the crown has three possible 'Nature' of the crime to get a 1st degree, IMO.

was planned and deliberate
while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping and forcible confinement
while committing intimidation.


Table taken from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(Canadian_law)

attachment.php
 

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Errrr said:
Wait a minute. DMs letters align with MMs report to police because his lawyer is feeding him evidence so far. DM gets to spin this evidence in his favour. MM does not know what MS means by that comment. DMs letters are written after the damning comment is in evidence.
Click to expand...

I agree with this - DM starts his here's what we're going to say and we need to be aligned thinking in the letters AFTER he got disclosure and saw MM said MS Effed Up. DM also only then after getting disclosure started to pretend HE had the bum shoulder. Everything he and CN are up to are lies trying to get herself and DM out. Also - she says she gave DM a 45 min *advertiser censored* on the car ride?? Something tells me that will be her defense as to how her DNA got on the gloves in DM's pocket.

Again - I can't understand the following:
- How did the letters get out of jail? If lawyer (which explains why lawyer change happened), why not charged?
- Why didnt DM get charged for being in contact with CN?
- Will MB (DM mom) be charged for tampering with evidence?
- What lies/inconsistencies are we seeing from AM's testimony given this new light? The other guy who cried made it clear the two men didnt agree on their memories of the events... which leads me to believe AM (on DM payroll) made up some lies to incriminate MS (even down to the hoodie which MM claimed was always a grey one)
- Why was toolbox guy laughing when DM dropped it off but crying on stand? What are we missing here?
- If we know DM started to make up (make believe) a defense based on disclosure, how will the crown be able to tear down the lies? If he's a psychopath (which I assume he is) I have no doubt he is probably itching to get up on the stand, sing and dance, enjoy the spotlight and tell grand tales of what "really happened"
- Since we see that DM's clearly lying, and asking everyone else (AM, CN) to lie and change their stories, why is anyone even taking his "Mark Effed up" seriously? Why in the world would DM do extra evidence clean up and leave evidence on his property if his goony screwed up? Feels like DM was always in control - even of the clean up.
- If the two defense strategies will be to point fingers at eachother, how is the jury supposed to make an assessment? just call them both guilty and call it a day?
 
Staceys said:
After all this with the letters ect...I am thinking DM pulled the trigger of MS's gun...MS was in the Yukon at the time of the shot(s) fired. GSR found all over the RAM truck....but non was found in the Yukon?? (if I remember correctly)....shooting in the truck produced a high concentration of GSR....pulling a tigger even more....pulling a trigger then moving back to the Yukon would have transferred high concetrations of GSR in the Yukon.
The plan was to steal and kill...Only MS was called to the "mission" because the plan was for the seller to never come home.
MS was tasked with cleaning the RAM truck (which he failed at), manning the incinerator (which he likely didn't do properly as per DM's instruction).
MS likely couldn't keep up after it all went down....so DM was scrambling.
CN was the only person he could reach out to in an attempt to manipulate and try to save his *advertiser censored*.
While CN is guilty after the fact - of going along with him ect, she is "not over him" in the least and may never be. She did not "end" the relationship on her terms - an arrest prematurely did....over time and with age she maybe would have came to her senses and likely grown apart from him. She has no closure and will continue to be drawn to him until she finally finds what she is looking for in some else...that will be hard. When they are both in jail I would assume they could write each other.... When she is out and he is still in I would suspect she will visit.

All MOO on a Friday am.

Thinking of the Bosma's today and always...it could have been any family...my husband even. She had it right. The devil smiled at her before taking Tim away....chilling
Click to expand...

I agree with you that DM likely was the shooter, and that is why MS did not get any gsr in the yukon, nor any blood. I cannot understand why, if DM's fingerprints are on the gun, MS does not reveal the location of the gun to prove it was not him who held it, and shot TB. Would this not help his case, and improve his chances of getting convicted of second degree murder ? IMO
 
Inspector_North said:
It looks like the crown has three possible 'Nature' of the crime to get a 1st degree, IMO.

was planned and deliberate
while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping and forcible confinement
while committing intimidation.


Table taken from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(Canadian_law)

attachment.php
Click to expand...


The intimidation is very specific and it is about intimidating a justice system participant or journalist.

[h=6]Intimidation[/h](6.2) Irrespective of whether a murder is planned and deliberate on the part of a person, murder is first degree murder when the death is caused by that person while committing or attempting to commit an offence under section 423.1.



[h=6]Intimidation of a justice system participant or a journalist[/h]
  • 423.1 (1) No person shall, without lawful authority, engage in any conduct with the intent to provoke a state of fear in
    • (a) a group of persons or the general public in order to impede the administration of criminal justice;
    • (b) a justice system participant in order to impede him or her in the performance of his or her duties; or
    • (c) a journalist in order to impede him or her in the transmission to the public of information in relation to a criminal organization.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-423.1-20150723.html
 
Remember....MS never had possession of the gun until after DM's arrest....that gun was likely the cleanest it has ever been for that transfer....remember only 1 GSR particle was found on the toolbox...that was throughly cleaned too. MS likely didn't have the capacity to manipulate the outcome from the get go....this is why only MS was recruited for the "mission"....the drugged out low life was the scapegoat.
 
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