Burlap and Forensics

[Girlinterrupted]

Hi, quick questions re the Burlap. I have just re-read the lost girls book.
There is something i'm not sure I have seen mentioned anywhere.
The four first victims they found wrapped in burlap, do we know the state of decomp for the actual material itself? Given there is a little time between each victims disappearance/murder, burlap should degenerate with expose to the elements and body fluids.
Because if the material was all in various states of decomp, it would be totally different if the material all looked fresh and the same age roughly. ie could they have all been "dumped" suddenly which means the burlap would all look fresh?
Secondly do we know what type of burlap it was there are quite a few varieties one finer softer type used for crafting mostly and one thick one used for sacking (Although you can use it for crafting also it's not as nice to the touch). One wonders where someone would get a load of burlap from without raising suspicion. It's quite expensive here in the UK by the meter. A lot would have printing on if from maybe flour/coffee sacks, but it's obviously bought by the meter/yard as there is no mention of advertising prints. Our local fisherman use large amounts, as do gardeners, I think road constructions for cement?
Thanks.

I grew up in nyc and spent most summers at the beach (in laws had a boat at gilgo, i have a place in montauk, and my best friend has a place in davis park). I am familiar with these communities from having spent 25 years worth of summers there.
When I close my eyes and think about 1-Long Island beaches
and
2-burlap
One thing connects them in my experience : shoreline erosion.

Erosion control is a huge issue on Long Island. Beaches have been disappearing for decades as the ocean levels have risen. The Long Island shoreline is particularly vulnerable during hurricane season. A tremendous amount of funding has been allocated to protect them. The US Army Corps of Engineers and NOAA are 2 of many groups who have contracted projects for decades to combat the issue. Efforts have included structural formations (like jetties) as well as constructions made of sand and geotextiles - mostly jute/burlap. Anyone involved in one of the many erosion control projects of the Long Island shoreline (an induvidual in the US Army Corps of Engineers for instance) would be extremely familiar with the area - including Gilgo Beach as well as Ocean Parkway, which is the route that would be used to transport construction materials to different areas of the shore.
Burlap is a specific material that would not be in the wheelhouse of options for most people. It would, however, be a natural and obvious choice for someone involved in erosion control.
Shoreline protection is an interesting topic on Long Island. There's alot of money put into it and alot of political figures involved. But many of the people who actually get the job done, build the barriers etc, are military.
If you are working in this field, burlap and geotextiles are something you know alot about. As is the terrain.

 

[dotr]

I grew up in nyc and spent most summers at the beach (in laws had a boat at gilgo, i have a place in montauk, and my best friend has a place in davis park). I am familiar with these communities from having spent 25 years worth of summers there.
When I close my eyes and think about 1-Long Island beaches
and
2-burlap
One thing connects them in my experience : shoreline erosion.

Erosion control is a huge issue on Long Island. Beaches have been disappearing for decades as the ocean levels have risen. The Long Island shoreline is particularly vulnerable during hurricane season. A tremendous amount of funding has been allocated to protect them. The US Army Corps of Engineers and NOAA are 2 of many groups who have contracted projects for decades to combat the issue. Efforts have included structural formations (like jetties) as well as constructions made of sand and geotextiles - mostly jute/burlap. Anyone involved in one of the many erosion control projects of the Long Island shoreline (an induvidual in the US Army Corps of Engineers for instance) would be extremely familiar with the area - including Gilgo Beach as well as Ocean Parkway, which is the route that would be used to transport construction materials to different areas of the shore.
Burlap is a specific material that would not be in the wheelhouse of options for most people. It would, however, be a natural and obvious choice for someone involved in erosion control.
Shoreline protection is an interesting topic on Long Island. There's alot of money put into it and alot of political figures involved. But many of the people who actually get the job done, build the barriers etc, are military.
If you are working in this field, burlap and geotextiles are something you know alot about. As is the terrain.

Thanks for the interesting and insightful post, wow- potential suspect type just expanded!

 

[OnTheCase27]

I grew up in nyc and spent most summers at the beach (in laws had a boat at gilgo, i have a place in montauk, and my best friend has a place in davis park). I am familiar with these communities from having spent 25 years worth of summers there.
When I close my eyes and think about 1-Long Island beaches
and
2-burlap
One thing connects them in my experience : shoreline erosion.

Erosion control is a huge issue on Long Island. Beaches have been disappearing for decades as the ocean levels have risen. The Long Island shoreline is particularly vulnerable during hurricane season. A tremendous amount of funding has been allocated to protect them. The US Army Corps of Engineers and NOAA are 2 of many groups who have contracted projects for decades to combat the issue. Efforts have included structural formations (like jetties) as well as constructions made of sand and geotextiles - mostly jute/burlap. Anyone involved in one of the many erosion control projects of the Long Island shoreline (an induvidual in the US Army Corps of Engineers for instance) would be extremely familiar with the area - including Gilgo Beach as well as Ocean Parkway, which is the route that would be used to transport construction materials to different areas of the shore.
Burlap is a specific material that would not be in the wheelhouse of options for most people. It would, however, be a natural and obvious choice for someone involved in erosion control.
Shoreline protection is an interesting topic on Long Island. There's alot of money put into it and alot of political figures involved. But many of the people who actually get the job done, build the barriers etc, are military.
If you are working in this field, burlap and geotextiles are something you know alot about. As is the terrain.

It’s certainly an idea to explore. I wonder if there are any coinciding beach restoration projects with the disposal of the GB4. I will see if I can find any publicly available info on the restoration of beaches near Gilgo from 07-10.

 

[dotr]

It’s certainly an idea to explore. I wonder if there are any coinciding beach restoration projects with the disposal of the GB4. I will see if I can find any publicly available info on the restoration of beaches near Gilgo from 07-10.

This so far..
https://www.nan.usace.army.mil/Port...iles/Army Corps GilgoBeach_FCCE_FactSheet.pdf
''Fire Island Inlet and Shores Westerly to Jones Inlet project is a multi-purpose project that provides navigation and shore protection benefits through the periodic maintenance dredging of Fire Island Inlet with placement of dredged sand along the shoreline several miles west of the inlet at the designated barrier island’s critical erosion area-Gilgo Beach.

The sand placed at Gilgo is intended to nourish the westerly beaches,provide coastal storm risk reduction and to ultimately help reduce the risk of barrier island breaches.The most recent maintenance dredging cycle was completed in winter 2007-08. The work included dredging and placement of 619,000 cubic yards of sand along the critical erosion area at Gilgo Beach.Current Operations The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers awarded a contract for the placement of approximately 1.7million cubic yards of sand along Gilgo Beach in August 2013 and work is currently underway.The project is scheduled to be completed in Spring 2014.''

 

[Ktsleuth]

Kaytom,

That may the case with a visible spectrum or infrared spectrum camera, but I suspect the FBI now has more advanced camera technology called hyperspectral which can detect the chemical signature of human flesh and bone. The camera may even be able to find the chemical signature of burlap just by passing overhead.

Here is some info that I posted earlier on one of the other forums. I haven't been able to find much info from the web about that camera in the black hawk, but this is some of the info I did find:

I think the FBI Black Hawk Helicopter may be providing more than just "high resolution" photos. I think there camera will be able to tell you all locations where a decaying body could be found. Here are some articles regarding this technology:

http://kingstonprogressive.blogspot....ad-people.html

http://facss.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/37823

http://www.chem.info/News/Feeds/2010...es-are-buried/

A related method that is currently being developed by the FBI detects living humans, and recently dead bodies lying on the ground, by recognising the chemical signature of human skin. It could be used when trying to locate and rescue people who are lost or missing, and to track down fugitives.

Kerri Moloughney of the FBI Counterterrorism and Forensic Science Research Unit in Quantico, Virginia, and her colleagues fitted a helicopter with a hyperspectral camera covering visible and infrared wavelengths in the range 400 to 2350 nanometres to see whether skin signatures could be spotted from the air. They then flew it over a specially prepared site where human and animal remains at various stages of decomposition had been scattered on the ground, and where there were also a number of live human volunteers. The signals it picked up showed a clear distinction between living human skin and the skin of long-dead humans and animals.

Moloughney says the technique could be combined with visual aerial searches and thermal imaging to pinpoint individuals in a landscape. "We hope it will enable us to find so much more than we can currently," says Moloughney, who also presented her results at the AAFS.

Underground heat betrays decaying flesh
So much for stone cold dead. Writhing masses of maggots can raise the temperature of decaying flesh to around 30 °C - and that heat signature could provide a telling clue in the hunt for hidden corpses.

Ian Hanson at the University of Bournemouth, UK, and his colleagues have been using thermal imaging to help detect the bodies of deer carcasses laid out in light woodland. "In many dead bodies you've got a maggot mass of several kilograms feeding away inside, and they like it warm," says Hanson.

"The police view has been that once a body has reached the same temperature as its environment, you can't pick it up with infrared," says Hanson. But his team has now found that as the maggots congregate into a mass, they can raise the temperature inside deer carcasses to 28 to 30 °C. This takes around five days, depending the weather.

When maggots do colonise a body, the heat they generate can be detected by infrared cameras mounted on police helicopters, Hanson has found. This could provide a new tool for identifying bodies in the undergrowth. "Once the maggot mass has developed there's a window of opportunity to find the bodies again," says Hanson.

Kaytom,

That may the case with a visible spectrum or infrared spectrum camera, but I suspect the FBI now has more advanced camera technology called hyperspectral which can detect the chemical signature of human flesh and bone. The camera may even be able to find the chemical signature of burlap just by passing overhead.

Here is some info that I posted earlier on one of the other forums. I haven't been able to find much info from the web about that camera in the black hawk, but this is some of the info I did find:

I think the FBI Black Hawk Helicopter may be providing more than just "high resolution" photos. I think there camera will be able to tell you all locations where a decaying body could be found. Here are some articles regarding this technology:

http://kingstonprogressive.blogspot....ad-people.html

http://facss.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/37823

http://www.chem.info/News/Feeds/2010...es-are-buried/

A related method that is currently being developed by the FBI detects living humans, and recently dead bodies lying on the ground, by recognising the chemical signature of human skin. It could be used when trying to locate and rescue people who are lost or missing, and to track down fugitives.

Kerri Moloughney of the FBI Counterterrorism and Forensic Science Research Unit in Quantico, Virginia, and her colleagues fitted a helicopter with a hyperspectral camera covering visible and infrared wavelengths in the range 400 to 2350 nanometres to see whether skin signatures could be spotted from the air. They then flew it over a specially prepared site where human and animal remains at various stages of decomposition had been scattered on the ground, and where there were also a number of live human volunteers. The signals it picked up showed a clear distinction between living human skin and the skin of long-dead humans and animals.

Moloughney says the technique could be combined with visual aerial searches and thermal imaging to pinpoint individuals in a landscape. "We hope it will enable us to find so much more than we can currently," says Moloughney, who also presented her results at the AAFS.

Underground heat betrays decaying flesh
So much for stone cold dead. Writhing masses of maggots can raise the temperature of decaying flesh to around 30 °C - and that heat signature could provide a telling clue in the hunt for hidden corpses.

Ian Hanson at the University of Bournemouth, UK, and his colleagues have been using thermal imaging to help detect the bodies of deer carcasses laid out in light woodland. "In many dead bodies you've got a maggot mass of several kilograms feeding away inside, and they like it warm," says Hanson.

"The police view has been that once a body has reached the same temperature as its environment, you can't pick it up with infrared," says Hanson. But his team has now found that as the maggots congregate into a mass, they can raise the temperature inside deer carcasses to 28 to 30 °C. This takes around five days, depending the weather.

When maggots do colonise a body, the heat they generate can be detected by infrared cameras mounted on police helicopters, Hanson has found. This could provide a new tool for identifying bodies in the undergrowth. "Once the maggot mass has developed there's a window of opportunity to find the bodies again," says Hanson.

amazing information, tysm

 

[Blunova]

Well, what is burlap used for ? One popular use, of course, is for balling and wrapping trees -- particularly Christmas trees. I read online that there almost a dozen Christmas tree farms on Long Island, including one in Manorville... It turns out however, that finer, clean burlap (used with ribbon) is also popular for wrapping the STANDS of Christmas trees to make them more visually appealing. I also read somewhere online that a 'standard cut' for 'decorative' Christmas tree stand wrapping is about 68"×68", which would make them about the right size for wrapping the body of a petite woman... If by chance there are any traces of decorative ribbon or the like left on the burlap used to wrap the Gilgo 4, then the burlap could have been purchased from an outlet like Michael's craft stores, etc. Non-decorative burlap is cut from a spool, but if the burlap shows signs of special cutting/weave, then the source may be from a craft supplier. Any thoughts on this ?

From Michaels | Christmas tree base, Christmas tree stand cover, Christmas tree base cover

 

[Ladygarden]

This is probably a wild card but chefs use burlap too-saw something on seafood shacks-again, total wild card

 

[Blueboy1]

Burlap is used by more than landscapers and garden supply outlets. Consider the various National, State and Municipal Park agencies in the Long Island area, they are always using burlap in their planting and gardening work. No doubt they have it in bulk.

Burlap and jute and similar products are used in a wide range of activities.

Has anyone considered that the guy works at a Oyster farm? Oysters are carried in burlap. Also most of the victims went missing when oyster farming is out of season. Harvesting in the months with R. Off season he would have plenty of time in May, June, July, Aug.

 

[ClazzyGalxo]

I just finished watching the first two episodes of The Killing Season, and something really stuck with me about the GB4, the burlap and some of the things Peter Brent was saying with his extensive profiles of these murders. I think LISK might be revisiting the bodies, like Bundy did, for sexual gratification. When Bundy got involved in the Green River killings, he said the same thing about those murders, and when Gary Ridgeway was caught, turned out Bundy was spot on. I am wondering if LISK is possibly a necrophile and the burlap is what he's using to keep the bodies intact for longer? If the bodies were well wrapped enough, even if they're only buried in quite shallow graves, the burlap would help to protect them from animal predation wouldn't it? It would also mean that he probably has a new dumping ground now. His previous bodies have been taken away from him by the police investigation, I would think he wouldn't want to risk that happening again by dumping in the same area, right? Just my thoughts on the burlap and it's possible purpose in these crimes. I'm new and I'm not an expert on anything really, so if I'm waaaay off the beaten track, please feel free to tell me so.

You're actually not off the beaten track at all; in my opinion. This sounds very viable and makes a lot sense. I do agree that he can no longer re-visit the site(s) any longer and most DEFINITELY is no longer dumping bodies in his formerly unknown dumping ground. It was a very well kept dirty little secret but now obviously, no longer is. To me, my knowledge of most serial killers is that they absolutely cannot stop their compulsive behavior and will never stop killing unless and until they get caught. So knowing this, I believe that unless he's already dead or incarcerated, he's 100% active in a new location altogether.

 

[wcasewatch]

Serial killers can stop for a myriad of reasons. BTK, the Golden State Killer, Jeffrey Gorton, etc.

The time between kills indicate that LISK was able to go dormant and refrain from killing for prolonged periods of time (three years passed between Peaches and Valerie Mack, and four years may have passed between Jessica Taylor and Maureen Brainard-Barnes).

Most killers have a paraphilia (sexual deviancy) of some sort that compels them to act. However, paraphilias can become less intense with age. The killer can also find a substitute (bondage, etc).

The find at Gilgo brought so much attention that it may have convinced him that it was time to call it a day.

 

[Makaveli the Don]

Yeah, but most of the time these idiots are bums and can't cope...lets be real. Familial DNA will be the end of all these cowards who stumbled upon some luck and managed to evade...for a time. But, time's bought up. Karma moves in mysterious ways...but, rest assured, it never misses. No more Jane or John Does and any case with unidentified DNA left by the killer should be solved quick......END IS NEAR.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Does anyone know if burlap used on vineyards and/or in the storing and shipping of high end wines? TIA

 

[clear sky]

Yeah, but most of the time these idiots are bums and can't cope...lets be real. Familial DNA will be the end of all these cowards who stumbled upon some luck and managed to evade...for a time. But, time's bought up. Karma moves in mysterious ways...but, rest assured, it never misses. No more Jane or John Does and any case with unidentified DNA left by the killer should be solved quick......END IS NEAR.

You have more faith than most.

 

[sds71]

Gilgo Beach murders: Large police operation in Massapequa Park, person in custody

A large police operation in Massapequa Park began in the early morning hours Friday in connection with the ongoing Gilgo Beach investigation.

abc7ny.com

 

[PickleChris]

RH Architecture.

 

[fred&edna]

I wonder if the camo burlap mentioned in today's press conference has any special meaning for RH. Was he a hunter? I never gave that old theory of LISK being a "duck hunter" a second thought... and I'm not sure I should now, but ???

 

[Bose]

Now that it has been according to the bail document, "...each of the four victims were found similarly positioned, bound in a similar fashion by either belts or tape, with three of the victims found wrapped in a burlap-type material." (Page 4, top of page) I read back through some records, because I remembered the type of material being mentioned before. This goes back to the case involving the Estate of Shannan Gilbert. It is from August 6, 2014. The document is readily available for viewing on the Unified Court System page (New York), through ECourts.


"It was said that the burlap was used by the state, "...for the community as to some of its plants along the roadway."
In light of this, does anyone think it is possible that the fabric the girls were wrapped with came from an existing planting site around that area?

 

[IamRaven9]

View attachment 437172
"It was said that the burlap was used by the state, "...for the community as to some of its plants along the roadway."
In light of this, does anyone think it is possible that the fabric the girls were wrapped with came from an existing planting site around that area

Thomas Canning lived in Oak Beach on Anchor way. Shannan Gilbert would have run past his house as she ran from Gus Colleti's house towards Barbara Brennans house. He did landscaping work in the Oak Beach community.

 

[Bose]

Thomas Canning lived in Oak Beach on Anchor way. Shannan Gilbert would have run past his house as she ran from Gus Colleti's house towards Barbara Brennans house. He did landscaping work in the Oak Beach community.

Thank you for the info. It just stood out to me, once I remembered. At first, I thought I remembered an instance where it was said to be light-colored specific burlap. I ran across that, while looking. I've brought it up elsewhere, but it has been pointed out to me that it's not the same, or probably not the same. I just thought it was something particular, of interest. Certain things have jumped out at me, this is one of them.