believe09
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Consciousness of Guilt. It is admissible in most criminal proceedings and undoubtedly would be front and center in any Grand Jury proceeding.
CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #15
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Consciousness of Guilt. It is admissible in most criminal proceedings and undoubtedly would be front and center in any Grand Jury proceeding.
believe09
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My laypersons understanding is as follows:
Believe09 has a midnight snack of the last stack of zwiebel's pancakes. Zwiebel questions Believe09 as to her whereabouts during the night when the pancakes were consumed. Believe says she fell asleep watching "Lion King on cable and has no idea what happened to the pancakes. Zwiebel checks the cable listings and points out that Lion King was not showing on cable. Believe then says she is mistaken, she meant to say "Snow White." Zwiebel points out that Snow White aired at 3PM when Believe was at work. Believe says oh yeah, she actually fell asleep to Oprah...
Consciousness of Guilt.
Believe09 has a midnight snack of the last stack of zwiebel's pancakes. Zwiebel questions Believe09 as to her whereabouts during the night when the pancakes were consumed. Believe says she fell asleep watching "Lion King on cable and has no idea what happened to the pancakes. Zwiebel checks the cable listings and points out that Lion King was not showing on cable. Believe then says she is mistaken, she meant to say "Snow White." Zwiebel points out that Snow White aired at 3PM when Believe was at work. Believe says oh yeah, she actually fell asleep to Oprah...
Consciousness of Guilt.
believe09
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Wonder how big the retainer was for a criminal atty hired by him? Sometimes that will give you an idea of what the atty thinks he/she has in terms of an uphill battle.
zwiebel
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I'd never heard of consciousness of guilt either. That's really interesting. I wonder if we have that in English law too, but under a different name? I'll have to find out. It seems a kind of weird concept. Not as weird as the family of a missing person falling completely silent about the results of any lie detector tests though.
This thread's driving me mad with food. All these things keep popping up and giving me cravings when our store is firmly shut. I'm tempted to zoom next door to Austria at the weekend and stuff myself silly to get rid of the cravings for at least six months. I daren't eat at their restaurants though. I thought they were going to throw me in jail once for leaving a spoonful of something on my plate. Scared me so much I tipped it in my handbag in the end when they weren't looking. Eugh.
This thread's driving me mad with food. All these things keep popping up and giving me cravings when our store is firmly shut. I'm tempted to zoom next door to Austria at the weekend and stuff myself silly to get rid of the cravings for at least six months. I daren't eat at their restaurants though. I thought they were going to throw me in jail once for leaving a spoonful of something on my plate. Scared me so much I tipped it in my handbag in the end when they weren't looking. Eugh.
zwiebel
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Has anybody heard of that psychological phase/condition that children go through, when they cannot comprehend their parents ever having a life - or even existing before/without them? I know I read something about it once, how all children go through it, then emerge as a necessary part of growing up. I've been looking for it all day but I can't recall the name of this phase/condition.
You can probably guess why I want to go back and read up about it - especially about how people may get arrested in that phase.
You can probably guess why I want to go back and read up about it - especially about how people may get arrested in that phase.
I also think it is a strange concept. Am I right in thinking it can be brought up as evidence but it would never be used on it's own to convict someone? Because I just don't see that happening.
believe09
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Grand Juries have much lower thresholds than a criminal trial-really you are looking for the Grand Jury to decide what is reasonable when presented with whatever evidence is out there-physical, circumstantial, consciousness of guilt. You cant really refuse to answer a Grand Juries questions-it isnt like a trial by jury or judge.
As for a criminal trial-I would think that if you take the moving target of a timeline and compare all of those guesses to whatever statements were made to LE, that is admissible.
Lets take another example-let's revisit JuM's postings, emails and pm's as related by her peers at ROTW when the body was discovered on 330 last year. It seems that for a period of time, the wheels came off. Fellow posters related threats that were made to them by private message, emails that were sent which were extraordinarily creepy...clearly the discovery made an impression on her.
Now, why this discovery? There have been many John Does recovered since the disappearance of her father. What about this one set her off?
Secondly, when did she cease being worried about it?
LE would know if the anxiety and the lack of anxiety were relevant. And trust me, it will come up in a criminal proceeding somewhere. JMVHO.
believe09
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As to whether or not consciousness of guilt led to a conviction, I dont know enough about criminal law to tell you. But strictly circumstantial no body cases are won frequently, and OC has a very solid success rate there.
I have a very interesting story to tell about this exact premise (it resulted from a search we ran.) Wicked busy right now, but will be back as soon as possible to share.
Thanks ya'll for all your hard work. I know that wherever Mr. Harrod is, he feels the compassion and love of a worldwide network of people who never knew him, but still want justice for him- and are not quiting anytime soon.
Seajay
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snipped by me
Holy Toast! She did that??? Hmmmmm. So Hwy 330 has significance for her in a big way. To me that says an awful lot. She knows he's dead and she knows approximately where he is, she knows how he got there, and she knows who put him there. This is where PPD should be looking. They need to get dogs out there to check the side of the road, all the way up to RS. IMO
bourne
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Sorry I'm late today, but was super busy today. I rewatched the Disappeared episode.
Here are my impressions of the POIs who spoke on camera. I'm very good at reading people's faces and nonverbal cues and quite accurate at detecting their credibility. And I wish the interviewer had asked each POI (including the youngest Julie, her hubby Jeff, and son, and barber Josie, what they felt when they learned Bob was missing and when did they learn he went missing. Then I would be able to give a better assessment of whether any of the POIs might have been involved in Bob’s disappearance...But take my opinions how you will
Paula – seems genuinely pained and heartbroken that Bob suffered depression after the death of their mom. She shed real tears. Not crocodile ones on camera upon being asked about Bob and her mom. I think she was mostly truthful but lying about the Sunday meeting dispute and exaggerating about Bob's becoming less mentally competent. Bob's doctor attested to Bob's being one of the "sharpest 81-year-olds he knew".
Roberta – appears bitter and very angry. Also seems to be restraining herself from lashing out or disclosing something… She definitely is hiding something. The few times that they showed her face on camera during the interview she kept looking to the side while talking so it's hard to see whether she was forthcoming or not. I did get the sense that was restraining herself from blurting something out many times. I also saw her as lying that there was no real argument on Sunday night, that everything was hunky-dory at the end of the family meeting and that Bob did not drive on freeways. I also felt she was adding strange details when she said her dad Bob's disappearance may be related to his being involved with someone "dark" not his new wife.
Fontelle – sounds like a straight-shooter, very blunt and witty, matter-of-fact person. She appears sharp mentally. I trust most of her statements though I think she exaggerated about Bob considering including her in the trust as the police says there's no evidence of that. LE says Bob did write down that he wanted to add her to his checking accounts, but that was it. Checking accounts only, not the trust.
Agnes - sounds sincere and genuinely concerned. I trust her words. She seems to lean towards Bob having met with foul play in her statements, and even seems to suggest Jeff may be involved. She questioned why Bob did not inform Jeff she was coming over on Monday to houseclean, and also why Jeff took longer than necessary to check on whether Bob was upstairs.
Bob - sounded depressed to me in the tv interview about his impending wedding to Fontelle. I don't know how he typically sounds so it's hard to gauge whether he always sounded haggard but his eyes looked so sad...I wish we have video or voicemail from Bob to Fontelle so we can evaluate whether he was truly happy or not...
Does anyone know who set up the tv interview of Bob and Fontelle re: their wedding?
~~~~~General thoughts and questions while watching episode
From what Fontelle says that she would call Bob 2x a day, once in the morning and once at night, and that she had called Bob Monday evening several times but he didn't answer, we can infer that that means she did call and reached Bob Monday morning before he disappeared. So I'm going to say Bob disappeared Monday, and not Sunday...unless phone records indicate otherwise.
Fontelle said it was Julie who called Fontelle Monday night around 8pm to say “Bob’s missing” right when Fontelle was about to call Julie to ask where Bob was. It seems to me that if those were the very first words that came out of Julie's mouth, then Julie called "on cue", like she knew Fontelle would start to suspect something, so Julie called Fontelle to head her off. I say this because when you can't reach someone, the first words you usually say are question words of inquiry, such as "Have you seen or heard from [Bob]?" You don't make a positive assertion as Julie did that "Bob's missing."
Roberta calls the police to ask for a welfare check…Strange as I recall other posters saying that Roberta and her family resides in the same neighborhood as Bob so why wouldn't she or another sister who lives close to Bob check in on him in person instead of calling for authorities to check? She said authorities had to get a key, so I assume it means she doesn’t have a key to Bob's house.
Officers went to the home and “were let in” by whom? No signs of disturbance or struggle. No alarms raised, according to LE.
Fontelle says at 8 o’clock she called Placentia Police from her daughter’s house in Shawnee, KS to make a “missing persons” report. Presumably this is after the welfare check by police.
Bob drove in his car. A one-hour constitutional walk up the street only. But no one knows his schedule, no day to day contact with Bob.
Daughters claim Bob’s mind beginning to slip.
Paula – “effort for dad to put anything together” and “he couldn’t remember a lot of the things. Because I would find him repeating things to me.”
Roberta – “sit in his recliner and read WSJ or watch the news.” “He had a fear of driving on freeways. So he didn’t go far from home.”
81 y.o. with his car in driveway. Bank records/credit cards – no withdrawals, or funny movements in his accounts.
Where would he go?
White Camry parked in driveway. Glovebox. Found address. In his handwriting. Community in beach 20 miles or so from Placentia.
Balboa island. Friends of Bob’s for 60 years. Police questioned them 9:30 at night…They said they saw Bob a few weeks earlier. Bob had actually brought Fontelle down to their home the day before he married Fontelle. Apparently Bob did drive the freeway at night. He’s quite capable and his mind sharp. “Healthiest 81-y.o. man he had ever seen” according to Doctor.
Cold feet about marriage? The police suspected, but Fontelle arrived back in CA Wed 7/29/2009, and Bob was still missing. Big red flag to police.
Shaving kit, toothbrush, house slippers… still in house, according to Fontelle.
July 27, 2009 Monday 9:00am. Bob was excited by all accounts, according to Det. Radomski. Bob was trying to get things fixed in the house.
Jeff, Julie's hubby. Doing electrical, plumbing work to get house ready for Fontelle. (So it looks like Bob did leave a to-do list for Jeff). But when Jeff returned from store, Bob wasn’t there. Jeff speculated to police that Bob might have been ill or had an appt that Jeff didn’t know about. If Bob was ill, why would he disappear? Unless Jeff is trying to say Bob visited a doctor? But Bob's car was still in driveway so how would Bob have driven to the doctor's?
CL, Agnes, arrived around NOON. SHE arranged to work on Monday. worked for more than 10 years as CL to Bob. Agnes said, “Bob said it’d be fine. He would be there. And Jeff would be working on the house before Fontelle comes back.” Bob always was home when she went over there. Or they would always tell her when they would not be home and they’d leave a key in the mailbox.
50 mins, Jeff drove back to the house and asked Agnes, “Are you supposed to be here today?” Agnes was surprised that Bob did not tell Jeff that she would be there that day…She asked Jeff to go upstairs…
She expected him to finish checking in 1 min. But a couple of mins he spent up there. So she thought Jeff found something…But finally Jeff came down and said “No, he’s not here.” (Very suspicious. Seems like Jeff was doing SOMETHING upstairs besides simply checking on whether Bob was around...)
CL housecleaned, said she saw “bed unmade”. Never in all the years she's worked there. Says it's very out of character, very strange for Bob.
She then finished up and left, shortly after Jeff left. About 3 hours housecleaning. She was very concerned.
July 31, 2009 Fri. Jeff last person to see Bob that day, Jeff was asked by police for interview. Jeff said he “Wasn’t at house when Bob left.” Corroborate with store surveillance. Still police says "windows of opportunity exist for something to go wrong." In other words, Jeff still had some periods of time for which he could have done something to Bob...
Jeff’s vehicle also brought in for forensic analysis on Friday (4 days after Bob disappeared). Police says “No evidence of foul play” or “that Bob was killed” or “transported after being killed or injured”.
Jeff, recounted activities that day, he said he saw a SUV drive slowly down the street…(45 y.o. Bob’s barber Josie also drives an SUV)
Paula sounds really suspicious of Josie…memorial service…According to Roberta, “Dad introduced Josie as he and mom’s barber. They were sitting together acting as if they were at a party rather than a memorial service.”
Bob cared for Georgia while she was ill and after her death. According to Agnes, Bob wanted someone younger…he didn’t want someone to die on him...(So perhaps Bob found himself a younger woman in Agnes and was seeking comfort in Agnes' arms during his 1st wife's illness and then her death/absence?)
Paula: “She was taking financial advantage of him…I became aware of it while helping dad with his taxes." (So Paula had access to Bob's financial records and presumably knows exactly how much he was worth - millions?).
A look at Bob’s bank account…Motive…overall wealth – a millionaire.
~~~~
I’m confused. According to the Disappeared episode, “24 hours after the family meeting after a 6-month hiatus away from his daughters, Bob went missing.”
Does this mean July 26, 2009 Sunday at the “Family meeting” was the first time Bob had seen his three daughters (and I assume their husbands and children) in SIX MONTHS?
That doesn’t sound right because SIL Jeff presumably had been doing repairs on Bob’s house for Fontelle’s arrival prior to Monday when Bob went missing, no?
Bob was very upset about the meeting…according to Fontelle. Meeting was very argumentative..about $ trust. But daughters deny that Fontelle was a topic of discussion. Police checked and the only thing Bob wrote was about adding Fontelle to checking account, nothing about adding her to trust...
Julie was able to find the missing documents, so apparently Julie knows where the dad places his financial and personal records…
~~~My speculations:
1) The reward money should be increased and eliminate the exclusion of family members as recipients of the reward. Perhaps this will draw out some money-hungry family member to disclose what they know.
2) Bob, might have been on his constitutional walk that morning. He might have encountered Jeff or POI (I'm thinking it has to be someone he knows like his son-in-law or daughter) driving by. Perhaps Jeff or other POI asked him if he needs a ride. Then picked Bob up and dropped him off in some ditch somewhere. Poof! Bob's now missing.
3) I'm really heavily leaning towards Jeff and his son as the culprits. Based on what Agnes says, there was no reason why if Jeff did see Bob early that Monday morning that Bob would not inform Jeff that Agnes was coming to do the housecleaning. Bob is mentally alert. He might have been upset over Sunday's family meeting, but no reason for him to suddenly forget that Agnes had called Monday and asked to switch cleaning days. This leads me to believe that Jeff already did something to Bob that morning and that is why Bob did not get a chance to alert Jeff about Agnes' arrival.
Also, I think I recall someone saying all the daughters were accounted for with respect to alibis, and so was the barber. I'm eliminating Agnes; she has no motive. I think Julie is also in on the scheme to make her father Bob disappeared. Jeff, Paula and son's motives: $heavy, heavy debt. Didn't want to repay. Also Julie, I assume received a large portion of $trust. So presumably Julie would help her hubby Jeff and son out with that $money.
Here are my impressions of the POIs who spoke on camera. I'm very good at reading people's faces and nonverbal cues and quite accurate at detecting their credibility. And I wish the interviewer had asked each POI (including the youngest Julie, her hubby Jeff, and son, and barber Josie, what they felt when they learned Bob was missing and when did they learn he went missing. Then I would be able to give a better assessment of whether any of the POIs might have been involved in Bob’s disappearance...But take my opinions how you will
Paula – seems genuinely pained and heartbroken that Bob suffered depression after the death of their mom. She shed real tears. Not crocodile ones on camera upon being asked about Bob and her mom. I think she was mostly truthful but lying about the Sunday meeting dispute and exaggerating about Bob's becoming less mentally competent. Bob's doctor attested to Bob's being one of the "sharpest 81-year-olds he knew".
Roberta – appears bitter and very angry. Also seems to be restraining herself from lashing out or disclosing something… She definitely is hiding something. The few times that they showed her face on camera during the interview she kept looking to the side while talking so it's hard to see whether she was forthcoming or not. I did get the sense that was restraining herself from blurting something out many times. I also saw her as lying that there was no real argument on Sunday night, that everything was hunky-dory at the end of the family meeting and that Bob did not drive on freeways. I also felt she was adding strange details when she said her dad Bob's disappearance may be related to his being involved with someone "dark" not his new wife.
Fontelle – sounds like a straight-shooter, very blunt and witty, matter-of-fact person. She appears sharp mentally. I trust most of her statements though I think she exaggerated about Bob considering including her in the trust as the police says there's no evidence of that. LE says Bob did write down that he wanted to add her to his checking accounts, but that was it. Checking accounts only, not the trust.
Agnes - sounds sincere and genuinely concerned. I trust her words. She seems to lean towards Bob having met with foul play in her statements, and even seems to suggest Jeff may be involved. She questioned why Bob did not inform Jeff she was coming over on Monday to houseclean, and also why Jeff took longer than necessary to check on whether Bob was upstairs.
Bob - sounded depressed to me in the tv interview about his impending wedding to Fontelle. I don't know how he typically sounds so it's hard to gauge whether he always sounded haggard but his eyes looked so sad...I wish we have video or voicemail from Bob to Fontelle so we can evaluate whether he was truly happy or not...
Does anyone know who set up the tv interview of Bob and Fontelle re: their wedding?
~~~~~General thoughts and questions while watching episode
From what Fontelle says that she would call Bob 2x a day, once in the morning and once at night, and that she had called Bob Monday evening several times but he didn't answer, we can infer that that means she did call and reached Bob Monday morning before he disappeared. So I'm going to say Bob disappeared Monday, and not Sunday...unless phone records indicate otherwise.
Fontelle said it was Julie who called Fontelle Monday night around 8pm to say “Bob’s missing” right when Fontelle was about to call Julie to ask where Bob was. It seems to me that if those were the very first words that came out of Julie's mouth, then Julie called "on cue", like she knew Fontelle would start to suspect something, so Julie called Fontelle to head her off. I say this because when you can't reach someone, the first words you usually say are question words of inquiry, such as "Have you seen or heard from [Bob]?" You don't make a positive assertion as Julie did that "Bob's missing."
Roberta calls the police to ask for a welfare check…Strange as I recall other posters saying that Roberta and her family resides in the same neighborhood as Bob so why wouldn't she or another sister who lives close to Bob check in on him in person instead of calling for authorities to check? She said authorities had to get a key, so I assume it means she doesn’t have a key to Bob's house.
Officers went to the home and “were let in” by whom? No signs of disturbance or struggle. No alarms raised, according to LE.
Fontelle says at 8 o’clock she called Placentia Police from her daughter’s house in Shawnee, KS to make a “missing persons” report. Presumably this is after the welfare check by police.
Bob drove in his car. A one-hour constitutional walk up the street only. But no one knows his schedule, no day to day contact with Bob.
Daughters claim Bob’s mind beginning to slip.
Paula – “effort for dad to put anything together” and “he couldn’t remember a lot of the things. Because I would find him repeating things to me.”
Roberta – “sit in his recliner and read WSJ or watch the news.” “He had a fear of driving on freeways. So he didn’t go far from home.”
81 y.o. with his car in driveway. Bank records/credit cards – no withdrawals, or funny movements in his accounts.
Where would he go?
White Camry parked in driveway. Glovebox. Found address. In his handwriting. Community in beach 20 miles or so from Placentia.
Balboa island. Friends of Bob’s for 60 years. Police questioned them 9:30 at night…They said they saw Bob a few weeks earlier. Bob had actually brought Fontelle down to their home the day before he married Fontelle. Apparently Bob did drive the freeway at night. He’s quite capable and his mind sharp. “Healthiest 81-y.o. man he had ever seen” according to Doctor.
Cold feet about marriage? The police suspected, but Fontelle arrived back in CA Wed 7/29/2009, and Bob was still missing. Big red flag to police.
Shaving kit, toothbrush, house slippers… still in house, according to Fontelle.
July 27, 2009 Monday 9:00am. Bob was excited by all accounts, according to Det. Radomski. Bob was trying to get things fixed in the house.
Jeff, Julie's hubby. Doing electrical, plumbing work to get house ready for Fontelle. (So it looks like Bob did leave a to-do list for Jeff). But when Jeff returned from store, Bob wasn’t there. Jeff speculated to police that Bob might have been ill or had an appt that Jeff didn’t know about. If Bob was ill, why would he disappear? Unless Jeff is trying to say Bob visited a doctor? But Bob's car was still in driveway so how would Bob have driven to the doctor's?
CL, Agnes, arrived around NOON. SHE arranged to work on Monday. worked for more than 10 years as CL to Bob. Agnes said, “Bob said it’d be fine. He would be there. And Jeff would be working on the house before Fontelle comes back.” Bob always was home when she went over there. Or they would always tell her when they would not be home and they’d leave a key in the mailbox.
50 mins, Jeff drove back to the house and asked Agnes, “Are you supposed to be here today?” Agnes was surprised that Bob did not tell Jeff that she would be there that day…She asked Jeff to go upstairs…
She expected him to finish checking in 1 min. But a couple of mins he spent up there. So she thought Jeff found something…But finally Jeff came down and said “No, he’s not here.” (Very suspicious. Seems like Jeff was doing SOMETHING upstairs besides simply checking on whether Bob was around...)
CL housecleaned, said she saw “bed unmade”. Never in all the years she's worked there. Says it's very out of character, very strange for Bob.
She then finished up and left, shortly after Jeff left. About 3 hours housecleaning. She was very concerned.
July 31, 2009 Fri. Jeff last person to see Bob that day, Jeff was asked by police for interview. Jeff said he “Wasn’t at house when Bob left.” Corroborate with store surveillance. Still police says "windows of opportunity exist for something to go wrong." In other words, Jeff still had some periods of time for which he could have done something to Bob...
Jeff’s vehicle also brought in for forensic analysis on Friday (4 days after Bob disappeared). Police says “No evidence of foul play” or “that Bob was killed” or “transported after being killed or injured”.
Jeff, recounted activities that day, he said he saw a SUV drive slowly down the street…(45 y.o. Bob’s barber Josie also drives an SUV)
Paula sounds really suspicious of Josie…memorial service…According to Roberta, “Dad introduced Josie as he and mom’s barber. They were sitting together acting as if they were at a party rather than a memorial service.”
Bob cared for Georgia while she was ill and after her death. According to Agnes, Bob wanted someone younger…he didn’t want someone to die on him...(So perhaps Bob found himself a younger woman in Agnes and was seeking comfort in Agnes' arms during his 1st wife's illness and then her death/absence?)
Paula: “She was taking financial advantage of him…I became aware of it while helping dad with his taxes." (So Paula had access to Bob's financial records and presumably knows exactly how much he was worth - millions?).
A look at Bob’s bank account…Motive…overall wealth – a millionaire.
~~~~
I’m confused. According to the Disappeared episode, “24 hours after the family meeting after a 6-month hiatus away from his daughters, Bob went missing.”
Does this mean July 26, 2009 Sunday at the “Family meeting” was the first time Bob had seen his three daughters (and I assume their husbands and children) in SIX MONTHS?
That doesn’t sound right because SIL Jeff presumably had been doing repairs on Bob’s house for Fontelle’s arrival prior to Monday when Bob went missing, no?
Bob was very upset about the meeting…according to Fontelle. Meeting was very argumentative..about $ trust. But daughters deny that Fontelle was a topic of discussion. Police checked and the only thing Bob wrote was about adding Fontelle to checking account, nothing about adding her to trust...
Julie was able to find the missing documents, so apparently Julie knows where the dad places his financial and personal records…
~~~My speculations:
1) The reward money should be increased and eliminate the exclusion of family members as recipients of the reward. Perhaps this will draw out some money-hungry family member to disclose what they know.
2) Bob, might have been on his constitutional walk that morning. He might have encountered Jeff or POI (I'm thinking it has to be someone he knows like his son-in-law or daughter) driving by. Perhaps Jeff or other POI asked him if he needs a ride. Then picked Bob up and dropped him off in some ditch somewhere. Poof! Bob's now missing.
3) I'm really heavily leaning towards Jeff and his son as the culprits. Based on what Agnes says, there was no reason why if Jeff did see Bob early that Monday morning that Bob would not inform Jeff that Agnes was coming to do the housecleaning. Bob is mentally alert. He might have been upset over Sunday's family meeting, but no reason for him to suddenly forget that Agnes had called Monday and asked to switch cleaning days. This leads me to believe that Jeff already did something to Bob that morning and that is why Bob did not get a chance to alert Jeff about Agnes' arrival.
Also, I think I recall someone saying all the daughters were accounted for with respect to alibis, and so was the barber. I'm eliminating Agnes; she has no motive. I think Julie is also in on the scheme to make her father Bob disappeared. Jeff, Paula and son's motives: $heavy, heavy debt. Didn't want to repay. Also Julie, I assume received a large portion of $trust. So presumably Julie would help her hubby Jeff and son out with that $money.
zwiebel
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Welcome back bourne. Thank you so much for summing up the entire case - it's very helpful to see all the circumstances through fresh eyes.
My thoughts about Bob being picked up on the street are that it is unlikely for a couple of reasons; if you look on the map, Carnation Drive ends in a cul de sac, as do many of the streets around it. It just doesn't look like a good place for a potential abductor to drive up and down, without having to turn their vehicle around and draw attention to themselves by passing back the way they had just come. A street abduction seems like a really risky strategy too.
The other thing that bothers me about that scenario is that Bob was reported to have not taken his glasses with him (at least originally. That too, has been 'subject to change'.) His friend said he wore them everywhere.
My thoughts about Bob being picked up on the street are that it is unlikely for a couple of reasons; if you look on the map, Carnation Drive ends in a cul de sac, as do many of the streets around it. It just doesn't look like a good place for a potential abductor to drive up and down, without having to turn their vehicle around and draw attention to themselves by passing back the way they had just come. A street abduction seems like a really risky strategy too.
The other thing that bothers me about that scenario is that Bob was reported to have not taken his glasses with him (at least originally. That too, has been 'subject to change'.) His friend said he wore them everywhere.
TDW59
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snipped:
Fontelle said it was Julie who called Fontelle Monday night around 8pm to say “Bob’s missing” right when Fontelle was about to call Julie to ask where Bob was. It seems to me that if those were the very first words that came out of Julie's mouth, then Julie called "on cue", like she knew Fontelle would start to suspect something, so Julie called Fontelle to head her off. I say this because when you can't reach someone, the first words you usually say are question words of inquiry, such as "Have you seen or heard from [Bob]?" You don't make a positive assertion as Julie did that "Bob's missing."
very good point! Thank you!
LE was let in for the welfare check by the grandson who lives very nearby.
Fontelle said it was Julie who called Fontelle Monday night around 8pm to say “Bob’s missing” right when Fontelle was about to call Julie to ask where Bob was. It seems to me that if those were the very first words that came out of Julie's mouth, then Julie called "on cue", like she knew Fontelle would start to suspect something, so Julie called Fontelle to head her off. I say this because when you can't reach someone, the first words you usually say are question words of inquiry, such as "Have you seen or heard from [Bob]?" You don't make a positive assertion as Julie did that "Bob's missing."
very good point! Thank you!
LE was let in for the welfare check by the grandson who lives very nearby.
TDW59
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You could be referring to several things, Z.
Infants cannot distinguish between themselves and their caretaker..then around 2 yrs old as they become aware, we see separation anxiety. If, say, the caretaker had to be in the hospital for a month or so, this does have subtle effects on the adult...fear of abondonment..but I don't think that is what we are seeing.
Around 3-4, children go thro the oedipal/electra phase, where they are in love with their opposite sex parent and want them for themselves. Many people carry vestiges of this throughout their lives.
Then there is plain old narcisstic personality disorder. I will look it up in the DMV and post that here in a few minutes.
TDW59
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Symptoms
Symptoms of this disorder, as defined by the DSM-IV-TR include:[1]
Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
Taking advantage of others to reach own goals
Exaggerating own importance, achievements, and talents
Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
Becoming jealous easily
Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others
Being obsessed with self
Pursuing mainly selfish goals
Trouble keeping healthy relationships
Becoming easily hurt and rejected
Setting goals that are unrealistic
Wanting "the best" of everything
Appearing unemotional
In addition to these symptoms, the person may also display dominance, arrogance, show superiority, and seek power.[6] The symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder can be similar to the traits of individuals with strong self-esteem and confidence; differentiation occurs when the underlying psychological structures of these traits are considered pathological. Narcissists have such an elevated sense of self-worth that they value themselves as inherently better than others. However, they have a fragile self-esteem and cannot handle criticism, and will often try to compensate for this inner fragility by belittling or disparaging others in an attempt to validate their own self-worth. It is this sadistic tendency that is characteristic of narcissism as opposed to other psychological conditions affecting level of self-worth.[7]
In children, inflated self-views and grandiose feelings, which are characteristics of narcissism, are part of the normal self-development. Children typically cannot understand the difference between their actual and their ideal self, which causes an unrealistic perception of the self. After about age 8, views of the self, both positive and negative, begin to develop based on comparisons of peers, and become more realistic. Two factors that cause self-view to remain unrealistic are dysfunctional interactions with parents that can be either excessive attention or a lack thereof. The child will either compensate for lack of attention or act in terms of unrealistic self-perception.[8]
The Childhood Narcissism Scale (CNS) measurements concluded that narcissistic children seek to impress others and gain admiration but do not have any interest in creating sincere friendships. CNS researchers have measured that childhood narcissism has become more prevalent in Western society; any types of activities that focus on overly praising the individual can raise narcissistic levels. More research is needed to find the reasons that promote or protect against narcissism.[8]
[edit]Causes
Narcissistic personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Symptoms of this disorder, as defined by the DSM-IV-TR include:[1]
Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
Taking advantage of others to reach own goals
Exaggerating own importance, achievements, and talents
Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
Becoming jealous easily
Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others
Being obsessed with self
Pursuing mainly selfish goals
Trouble keeping healthy relationships
Becoming easily hurt and rejected
Setting goals that are unrealistic
Wanting "the best" of everything
Appearing unemotional
In addition to these symptoms, the person may also display dominance, arrogance, show superiority, and seek power.[6] The symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder can be similar to the traits of individuals with strong self-esteem and confidence; differentiation occurs when the underlying psychological structures of these traits are considered pathological. Narcissists have such an elevated sense of self-worth that they value themselves as inherently better than others. However, they have a fragile self-esteem and cannot handle criticism, and will often try to compensate for this inner fragility by belittling or disparaging others in an attempt to validate their own self-worth. It is this sadistic tendency that is characteristic of narcissism as opposed to other psychological conditions affecting level of self-worth.[7]
In children, inflated self-views and grandiose feelings, which are characteristics of narcissism, are part of the normal self-development. Children typically cannot understand the difference between their actual and their ideal self, which causes an unrealistic perception of the self. After about age 8, views of the self, both positive and negative, begin to develop based on comparisons of peers, and become more realistic. Two factors that cause self-view to remain unrealistic are dysfunctional interactions with parents that can be either excessive attention or a lack thereof. The child will either compensate for lack of attention or act in terms of unrealistic self-perception.[8]
The Childhood Narcissism Scale (CNS) measurements concluded that narcissistic children seek to impress others and gain admiration but do not have any interest in creating sincere friendships. CNS researchers have measured that childhood narcissism has become more prevalent in Western society; any types of activities that focus on overly praising the individual can raise narcissistic levels. More research is needed to find the reasons that promote or protect against narcissism.[8]
[edit]Causes
Narcissistic personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
TDW59
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Causes
The cause of this disorder is unknown, however Groopman and Cooper list the following factors identified by various researchers as possibilities:[2]
An oversensitive temperament at birth
Excessive admiration that is never balanced with realistic feedback
Excessive praise for good behaviors or excessive criticism for bad behaviors in childhood
Overindulgence and overvaluation by parents, other family members, or peers
Being praised for perceived exceptional looks or abilities by adults
Severe emotional abuse in childhood
Unpredictable or unreliable caregiving from parents
Valued by parents as a means to regulate their own self-esteem
Some narcissistic traits are common and a normal developmental phase. When these traits are compounded by a failure of the interpersonal environment and continue into adulthood, they may intensify to the point where NPD is diagnosed.[9] Some psychotherapists believe that the etiology of the disorder is, in Freudian terms, the result of fixation to early childhood development.[10]
A 1994 study by Gabbard and Twemlow[11] reports that histories of incest, especially mother–son incest, are associated with NPD in some male patients.
[edit]Theories
Pathological narcissism occurs in a spectrum of severity. In its more extreme forms, it is narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). NPD is considered to result from a person's belief that they are flawed in a way that makes them fundamentally unacceptable to others.[12] This belief is held below the person's conscious awareness; such a person would, if questioned, typically deny thinking such a thing. In order to protect themselves against the intolerably painful rejection and isolation that (they imagine) would follow if others recognized their (perceived) defective nature, such people make strong attempts to control others’ views of them and behavior towards them.
Pathological narcissism can develop from an impairment in the quality of the person's relationship with their primary caregivers, usually their parents, in that the parents could not form a healthy and empathic attachment to them.[13] This results in the child's perception of himself/herself as unimportant and unconnected to others. The child typically comes to believe they have some personality defect that makes them unvalued and unwanted.[14]
To the extent that people are pathologically narcissistic, they can be controlling, blaming, self-absorbed, intolerant of others’ views, unaware of others' needs and of the effects of their behavior on others, and insistent that others see them as they wish to be seen.[15]
Narcissistic individuals use various strategies to protect the self at the expense of others. They tend to devalue, derogate and blame others, and they respond to threatening feedback with anger and hostility.[16]
People who are overly narcissistic commonly feel rejected, humiliated and threatened when criticised. To protect themselves from these dangers, they often react with disdain, rage, and/or defiance to any slight criticism, real or imagined.[17] To avoid such situations, some narcissistic people withdraw socially and may feign modesty or humility. In cases where the narcissistic personality-disordered individual feels a lack of admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation, he or she may also manifest a desire to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply).
Although individuals with NPD are often ambitious and capable, the inability to tolerate setbacks, disagreements or criticism, along with lack of empathy, make it difficult for such individuals to work cooperatively with others or to maintain long-term professional achievements.[18] With narcissistic personality disorder, the individual's self-perceived fantastic grandiosity, often coupled with a hypomanic mood, is typically not commensurate with his or her real accomplishments.
ibid
The cause of this disorder is unknown, however Groopman and Cooper list the following factors identified by various researchers as possibilities:[2]
An oversensitive temperament at birth
Excessive admiration that is never balanced with realistic feedback
Excessive praise for good behaviors or excessive criticism for bad behaviors in childhood
Overindulgence and overvaluation by parents, other family members, or peers
Being praised for perceived exceptional looks or abilities by adults
Severe emotional abuse in childhood
Unpredictable or unreliable caregiving from parents
Valued by parents as a means to regulate their own self-esteem
Some narcissistic traits are common and a normal developmental phase. When these traits are compounded by a failure of the interpersonal environment and continue into adulthood, they may intensify to the point where NPD is diagnosed.[9] Some psychotherapists believe that the etiology of the disorder is, in Freudian terms, the result of fixation to early childhood development.[10]
A 1994 study by Gabbard and Twemlow[11] reports that histories of incest, especially mother–son incest, are associated with NPD in some male patients.
[edit]Theories
Pathological narcissism occurs in a spectrum of severity. In its more extreme forms, it is narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). NPD is considered to result from a person's belief that they are flawed in a way that makes them fundamentally unacceptable to others.[12] This belief is held below the person's conscious awareness; such a person would, if questioned, typically deny thinking such a thing. In order to protect themselves against the intolerably painful rejection and isolation that (they imagine) would follow if others recognized their (perceived) defective nature, such people make strong attempts to control others’ views of them and behavior towards them.
Pathological narcissism can develop from an impairment in the quality of the person's relationship with their primary caregivers, usually their parents, in that the parents could not form a healthy and empathic attachment to them.[13] This results in the child's perception of himself/herself as unimportant and unconnected to others. The child typically comes to believe they have some personality defect that makes them unvalued and unwanted.[14]
To the extent that people are pathologically narcissistic, they can be controlling, blaming, self-absorbed, intolerant of others’ views, unaware of others' needs and of the effects of their behavior on others, and insistent that others see them as they wish to be seen.[15]
Narcissistic individuals use various strategies to protect the self at the expense of others. They tend to devalue, derogate and blame others, and they respond to threatening feedback with anger and hostility.[16]
People who are overly narcissistic commonly feel rejected, humiliated and threatened when criticised. To protect themselves from these dangers, they often react with disdain, rage, and/or defiance to any slight criticism, real or imagined.[17] To avoid such situations, some narcissistic people withdraw socially and may feign modesty or humility. In cases where the narcissistic personality-disordered individual feels a lack of admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation, he or she may also manifest a desire to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply).
Although individuals with NPD are often ambitious and capable, the inability to tolerate setbacks, disagreements or criticism, along with lack of empathy, make it difficult for such individuals to work cooperatively with others or to maintain long-term professional achievements.[18] With narcissistic personality disorder, the individual's self-perceived fantastic grandiosity, often coupled with a hypomanic mood, is typically not commensurate with his or her real accomplishments.
ibid
TDW59
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Often though, in the colloquial sense, the idea of having daddy issues relates more to the fact that a girl received inadequate or inappropriate attention from the father figure in her life. An absent father might trigger a girls desire to seek male approval elsewhere, and as a teen or young adult, to do so in a sexual manner. An abusive father might seriously wound a father/daughter relationship. Girls, or young women, might express unresolved daddy issues by seeking relationships of a sexual or romantic nature with older men, or alternately, they might replicate their poor relationships with fathers by having abusive partners. Generally, daddy issues implies that a female remains incomplete and seeks some sort of fatherly or familial relationship with mates, which is not the best foundation upon which to build a relationship.
Fathers or strong and consistent male presence in a girls life do have a significant effect on self-esteem. This is largely undisputed by experts in psychology. Feeling attractive and loved by daddy (or other strong male figure) can help a girl have more confidence and strength. This is not necessarily penis envy, but it does appear as though girls and women can prosper better in their lives if they had positive male input from a father figure. Without that, girls may express daddy issues in seeking out father figures, or placing even very good men with whom they are in relationship, in positions that they really cant adequately fill.
Daddy issues can thus be perceived as attempting to work out problems with the father/daughter relationship, either its complete absence, abuse of the relationship, or unreliability. A woman who goes through life without these issues is often one who had a secure and loving father figure in her life. A person still working on this may try to make todays relationships serve a need that was not adequately fulfilled in childhood and adolescent years. This can lead to poor relationships with men in the present and the future, until the women is able to reconcile a past father/daughter relationship, often through therapy, that wasnt altogether satisfactory.
http://www.wisegeek.org/what-are-daddy-issues.htm
Fathers or strong and consistent male presence in a girls life do have a significant effect on self-esteem. This is largely undisputed by experts in psychology. Feeling attractive and loved by daddy (or other strong male figure) can help a girl have more confidence and strength. This is not necessarily penis envy, but it does appear as though girls and women can prosper better in their lives if they had positive male input from a father figure. Without that, girls may express daddy issues in seeking out father figures, or placing even very good men with whom they are in relationship, in positions that they really cant adequately fill.
Daddy issues can thus be perceived as attempting to work out problems with the father/daughter relationship, either its complete absence, abuse of the relationship, or unreliability. A woman who goes through life without these issues is often one who had a secure and loving father figure in her life. A person still working on this may try to make todays relationships serve a need that was not adequately fulfilled in childhood and adolescent years. This can lead to poor relationships with men in the present and the future, until the women is able to reconcile a past father/daughter relationship, often through therapy, that wasnt altogether satisfactory.
http://www.wisegeek.org/what-are-daddy-issues.htm
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