CA CA - Lancaster, WhtFem 1205UFCA , 30-50, in desert, homemade coffin, Dec'68

[4SAM]

Interesting story. Thanks, made my day here at work. My question is: was there still blood from the gunshot wound? Dried? Or was she completely cleaned up?

 

[emeraldine]

Thank you for this article. It is frustrating and counterproductive when different sources contradict each other with the details(the first link says we have fingerprints and that they've been checked twice, but the article says fingerprints couldn't even be taken), but it is good to be able to visualize the grave site, and see the coffin.

I am actually now wondering if the person(s) who constructed the coffin had carpentry knowledge, or at least good "handyman" skills. It's clearly meant for function and not beauty(despite the painting), but it doesn't look like some amateur built it. As the article says, someone gave a lot of thought to what would happen to the coffin after its burial.

I wish there could have still been a bullet present. That'd help narrow things down.

Regarding the closeness of the grave site to the road, and the possibility of the gravediggers(almost definitely plural, if they did it in one day/night) being seen or heard...maybe there was no road there, back then. Given that the grave was found by hunters, it almost had to have been a fairly quiet and untraveled/unpopulated area.

If we could just have a reconstruction that we could identify her by, and look up her family/associates, maybe we could get a list of possible suspects or a better understanding of what was going on in her life.

I wonder why they never drew one?

 

[LaborDayRN]

It's strange that it was so close to the roadway...Why would someone bury the coffin so close to the road (only 15ft)? Wouldn't you think that would be easier to expose it? Or expose them as they buried it? I imagine digging a hole that big would take quite a bit of time...

In the original story, under the photo of the road, it reads that the road was primarily used by hunters. It was a dirt road quite a ways out of town. I'm guessing that the person who brought the coffin out there may have been alone and buried it in the dark. Staying close to the dirt road may have made it safer, easier.

 

[emeraldine]

So, it was a road, but remote enough to ensure there wouldn't be any "intruders" to find this person out.

That suggests someone local, to me...probably someone who'd been living in the area for quite some time. Those roads that are off the beaten path aren't usually well-known to "outsiders" - not even now, almost three generations later, when virtually everyone has a GPS.

If it was one person, they would have needed to be young enough to still be in pretty good physical shape. Age related diseases(such as heart disease) were a lot more disabling in 1968 than they are now, due to a lack of good long-term treatment options.

 

[dogperson]

So do they think the coffin was homemade? I guess I had just assumed it was purchased from a funeral home, I never even thought about somebody making it but that actually makes more sense. It doesn't look factory made in the photos. So somebody with carpentry skills and the proper tools did this.

I keep thinking the paper bag was because whoever put her in the coffin couldn't bear to look at her. Whether it was because of grief or guilt I don't know. But I would think a gunshot to the head would look pretty bad. Most women do not shoot themselves in the head. Especially not after putting their hair in pincurls. So maybe this was a domestic situation that went bad, marital abuse, or even abuse by one of her grown children.

 

[mayqueen]

Such an odd case. Someone went to great lengths to bury this woman -- constructing the coffin, wrapping her in two quilts and placing her inside with a pillow under her head, gluing then nailing the coffin shut, painting the coffin, digging a hole to place it in... I lived in the Mojave Desert for 18 years, it is NOT easy to dig in the dirt there. The soil is very compacted.

The bag over the head is mysterious... if the person who placed her in the coffin couldn't bear to look at her face, I get that, but she was wrapped in quilts that covered her face -- why was the bag needed, too?

The coffin is quite interesting. I couldn't figure out the slats inside the coffin (lying on top of the body), until I read this quote* from Sgt. Longmore: “One could speculate that the way that the coffin was constructed that he was concerned about animal intervention.” So perhaps those slats were extra protection from wildlife, in case an animal was actually able to get into the glued, nailed coffin.

(*Quote came from this article: http://theavtimes.com/2012/05/25/detectives-seek-help-with-red-coffin-cold-case/)

I'm attaching the photo of the coffin from the article. It's quite large, so if you care to, you can see the "slats" I'm referring to. (Click on the thumbnail, and then click on the image again to see it full size.)

Strange, strange.

(My personal theory: she was murdered by someone close to her, a husband/boyfriend most likely. He was deeply regretful afterward, hence all the care put into her burial. I hope someday she gets her name back.)

 

[traacker13]

I wonder if it's possible that this was an accidental death or wasn't premeditated and the killer felt remorseful. Maybe it was a heated debate and immediately after pulling the trigger they felt extreme guilt.

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[traacker13]

I wonder if they ever interviewed hunters in the area? If this was a road traveled by hunters whoever was back there had to be familiar with the area and feel safe enough with the area to be that close to the road imo

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[bcf]

http://theavtimes.com/2012/05/25/detectives-seek-help-with-red-coffin-cold-case/
On Dec. 8, 1968, a group of hunters came across a coffin about 15 feet from the roadway, on 188th Street East, just south of Fort Tejon Road.

“It was behind a tree or bush and could not be seen from the roadway,” Longshore said. “It was covered with dead limbs of trees and rocks and some dirt.”

Longshore said the women’s appearance coupled with how the coffin was constructed led detectives to believe it was a domestic murder.

After analysing the first photo of this article I've attached a picture with the approximate location the map says the body was found.

 

[traacker13]

Madeline Babcock sounds like a very good possibility for this UID. She had a hysterectomy, she disappeared in June of 1968, while it says she has blonde hair on her profile she looks to have Auburn hair to me in the photos. She's in the correct age range, lived in Los Angeles and had domestic issues with a former husband.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/babcock_madeline.html

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[carbuff]

Such an odd case. Someone went to great lengths to bury this woman -- constructing the coffin, wrapping her in two quilts and placing her inside with a pillow under her head, gluing then nailing the coffin shut, painting the coffin, digging a hole to place it in... I lived in the Mojave Desert for 18 years, it is NOT easy to dig in the dirt there. The soil is very compacted.

The bag over the head is mysterious... if the person who placed her in the coffin couldn't bear to look at her face, I get that, but she was wrapped in quilts that covered her face -- why was the bag needed, too?

The coffin is quite interesting. I couldn't figure out the slats inside the coffin (lying on top of the body), until I read this quote* from Sgt. Longmore: “One could speculate that the way that the coffin was constructed that he was concerned about animal intervention.” So perhaps those slats were extra protection from wildlife, in case an animal was actually able to get into the glued, nailed coffin.

(*Quote came from this article: http://theavtimes.com/2012/05/25/detectives-seek-help-with-red-coffin-cold-case/)

I'm attaching the photo of the coffin from the article. It's quite large, so if you care to, you can see the "slats" I'm referring to. (Click on the thumbnail, and then click on the image again to see it full size.)

Strange, strange.

(My personal theory: she was murdered by someone close to her, a husband/boyfriend most likely. He was deeply regretful afterward, hence all the care put into her burial. I hope someday she gets her name back.)

Those are pretty sturdy slats, and they aren't in an even row -- they seem to press down tight against the body.

Which makes me wonder if maybe they were to hold the body in position while the coffin was being transported, like perhaps it had to be moved in a non-horizontal position.

 

[emeraldine]

Madeline Babcock sounds like a very good possibility for this UID. She had a hysterectomy, she disappeared in June of 1968, while it says she has blonde hair on her profile she looks to have Auburn hair to me in the photos. She's in the correct age range, lived in Los Angeles and had domestic issues with a former husband.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/babcock_madeline.html

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"Law enforcement was apparently unconcerned about her disappearance and believed Babcock left of her own accord."

How sad.

Anyway, if this is her(and, based on the dates, location, and circumstances, I think it could be), maybe she was shot in the head to conceal her hydrocephaly and the deformity it caused. The paper bag(and even the hairnet) might also have been placed on her to create more distractions from it.

She might have been blonde when she was a child/teenager, and that's how her family(who apparently did not see her very often, but still reported her missing) remembered her. "Sandy" hair can have a lot of red in it...if it darkened with age(as the pictures seem to suggest hers did), I imagine that it would keep the reddish tint.

I think this should be called in. Even if it isn't her, it'll narrow down the possibilities a little bit.

 

[LaborDayRN]

Those are pretty sturdy slats, and they aren't in an even row -- they seem to press down tight against the body.

Which makes me wonder if maybe they were to hold the body in position while the coffin was being transported, like perhaps it had to be moved in a non-horizontal position.

I think that's interesting. I hadn't noticed how tight they were against the body. You may be onto something here.

 

[LaborDayRN]

Madeline Babcock sounds like a very good possibility for this UID. She had a hysterectomy, she disappeared in June of 1968, while it says she has blonde hair on her profile she looks to have Auburn hair to me in the photos. She's in the correct age range, lived in Los Angeles and had domestic issues with a former husband.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/babcock_madeline.html

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I'm not familiar with Madeline's case but you're right, she does sound like a possibility. I wish her Charley project page mentioned something about her teeth. That might help.

 

[nitsirk]

If I recall correctly, I think that Madeline's sister posts on WS. I seem to remember something about her being identified but can't find anything to back that up. Her thread has been closed.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92079&highlight=madeline+babcock

 

[LaborDayRN]

If I recall correctly, I think that Madeline's sister posts on WS. I seem to remember something about her being identified but can't find anything to back that up. Her thread has been closed.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92079&highlight=madeline+babcock

I did read on the above thread, that Madeline's nose had been previously broken. I don't see any mention of this in our case, but perhaps they don't always include every detail????? Still, the time frame and general area are spot on.

 

[Just Pat 22]

It's strange that it was so close to the roadway...Why would someone bury the coffin so close to the road (only 15ft)? Wouldn't you think that would be easier to expose it? Or expose them as they buried it? I imagine digging a hole that big would take quite a bit of time...

I sent you message with my home e mail I hope you receive it . Thank you again for the contact Carrie Sutherland of Namus has Madelines profile and My Brothers and my DNA I will further check this out .It would be a miracle if it turns out to be her long time waiting this is the third one I have checked out maybe it's the one never know . I will keep you posted Thanks again Pat

 

[LaborDayRN]

I sent you message with my home e mail I hope you receive it . Thank you again for the contact Carrie Sutherland of Namus has Madelines profile and My Brothers and my DNA I will further check this out .It would be a miracle if it turns out to be her long time waiting this is the third one I have checked out maybe it's the one never know . I will keep you posted Thanks again Pat

Hi Just Pat, I'm glad you will have this checked out. You never know. Any idea is Madeline had any gold teeth?

 

[killarney rose]

Re,the bag on her head:

A week ago this past Friday, my oldest son had the misfortune to discover a suicide victim. The young man had gone into the edge of some woods adjacent to his back yard and shot himself in the head. Before doing so, he had put a bag over his head. He was found with the bag over his head and gun in his hand.

I haven't asked my son for details, I didnt want to upset him. But the rest of us assume the man did this to contain any mess the gunshot might have made.

 

[traacker13]

Killarneyrose - I cant imagine finding someone like that. I hope your son is able to feel some relief in knowing that he may help a family who may be suffering not knowing where their loved one went.

I wish they had more information about the bag like if it was placed over her head prior to the gunshot. This is such a sad case and I hope though that she can be identified and brought home.

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